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Topping from the Bottom v finding a good match for each... - 3/17/2009 5:52:54 PM

sjskuared

Posts: 51
Joined: 1/6/2005
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I have a question on what people think topping from the bottom is. What is the difference in asking for what you want or looking for someone who wants the same things and is interested in the same things as you are from topping from the bottom.

Just because you say you want something I feel should not be considered topping from the bottom, nor should it be considered if you are looking for someone who has the same interests as you have. If you are not interested or willing to do something that another one wants then you may not be a good match for each other. The same thing goes for saying that someone is not submissive if they have different preferences.

Specifically I don't consider myself a slave because I am looking for someone who wants similar things as I do.

Post #: 1

RE: Topping from the Bottom v finding a good match for ... - 3/17/2009 5:57:56 PM

hopelessfool

Posts: 988
Joined: 7/29/2005
Status: offline

i dont believe subs top from the bottom. If the doms in control theres no control the sub can take. If the dom isnt in control she isnt topping from the bottom the top isnt topping from the top.

Most cases of "topping from the bottom" its just manipulation from the top to make the sub do something thats a limit or thats a no go for them by praying on the fears of not being subly enough or not being good enough. it isnt because it plays on many peoples self esteem. Personally when accused of such a "crime" I respond if you do your job right, i wouldnt have to do it for you, but then im a bad bad subbie... -chuckles-

_____________________________

" I have nothing left to give, I have found the perfect end, You remain to make it hurt, disappear in to the dirt, carry me to heavens arms.....Dear Agony Just let go of me, suffer slowly, is this the way its gotta be, Dear Agony...."

(in reply to sjskuared)

Post #: 2

RE: Topping from the Bottom v finding a good match for ... - 3/17/2009 5:58:12 PM

DarkSteven

Posts: 28072
Joined: 5/2/2008
Status: offline

So who's in charge?

If I'm the one in charge, then I get to say what happens. My sub's wishes are taken into account, but she doesn't get to dictate how I Dom her.

_____________________________

"You women....

The small-breasted ones want larger breasts. The large-breasted ones want smaller ones. The straight-haired ones curl their hair, and the curly-haired ones straighten theirs...

Quit fretting. We men love you."

(in reply to sjskuared)

Post #: 3

RE: Topping from the Bottom v finding a good match for ... - 3/17/2009 6:10:46 PM

DavanKael

Posts: 3072
Joined: 10/6/2007
Status: offline

Topping from the bottom is waaaaaaaaaay diferent from attempting to ascertain compatibility and, imo, hopefully you'd find out if you're compatible before you're in a situation where you could top from the bottom.
Being on the s-side of the kneel doesn't suddenly strip you of your ability to have cogent thought and render you an automaton but, if you've committed your deference to someone on the D-side of the kneel, that does give them a level (Which may differ from relationship to relationship) over you.
Davan

_____________________________

May you live as long as you wish & love as long as you live
-Robert A Heinlein

It's about the person & the bond,not the bondage
-Me

Waiting is

170NZ (Aka:Sex God Du Jour) pts

Jesus,I've ALWAYS been a deviant
-Leadership527,Jeff

(in reply to DarkSteven)

Post #: 4

RE: Topping from the Bottom v finding a good match for ... - 3/17/2009 6:32:29 PM

catize

Posts: 3020
Joined: 3/7/2006
Status: offline

quote:

I have a question on what people think topping from the bottom is.

It is a phrase that is frequently misused to convince those who identify as submissive that we are “wrong” to have preferences.
It is a phrase frequently misused to convince submissive people that we are not “true, real, gen-U-ine” submissives if we have limits.
It is a phrase frequently misused to try to make submissive people feel guilt or shame if we stick to our own personal standards of conduct.
It is a phrase that is frequently misused as a bludgeon to beat us into submission.
It is a phrase that is frequently misused to justify whatever a dominant believes they are entitled to.
It is a phrase that makes me twitch, makes me want to scream and break things! (can you tell?)

Remember: Until I have agreed to submit to someone, there is no bottom to top from!

_____________________________

"Power is real. But it's a lot less real if it's not perceived as power."
Robert Parker, Stranger in Paradise

(in reply to sjskuared)

Post #: 5

RE: Topping from the Bottom v finding a good match for ... - 3/17/2009 7:46:12 PM

peppermint

Posts: 5170
Joined: 10/18/2005
From: Montana
Status: offline

First thing, a bottom and top are different from a submissive and dominant. A bottom is a person who has something done to him or her. A top is the person who is doing the action. A submissive and dominant are involved in a relationship that involves an exchange of power.

When my dominant makes a new toy such as a flogger, he likes to know how the new toy feels. He will have me flog him with this new flogger. In other words, he becomes the bottom and I am the top. The exchange of power between us remains as it always is...he is the dominant and I am the submissive.

Topping from the bottom is not automatically a bad thing.

(in reply to sjskuared)

Post #: 6

RE: Topping from the Bottom v finding a good match for ... - 3/17/2009 9:07:54 PM

ShaktiSama

Posts: 1674
Joined: 8/13/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: catize
It is a phrase that is frequently misused to convince those who identify as submissive that we are “wrong” to have preferences.
It is a phrase frequently misused to convince submissive people that we are not “true, real, gen-U-ine” submissives if we have limits.
It is a phrase frequently misused to try to make submissive people feel guilt or shame if we stick to our own personal standards of conduct.
It is a phrase that is frequently misused as a bludgeon to beat us into submission.
It is a phrase that is frequently misused to justify whatever a dominant believes they are entitled to.
It is a phrase that makes me twitch, makes me want to scream and break things! (can you tell?)

Remember: Until I have agreed to submit to someone, there is no bottom to top from!

I can understand why some people find the use of this phrase upsetting. It's obviously always used when a dominant is disgusted, disappointed or frustrated with a submissive partner. That does not mean, however, that the submissive/bottom is always an innocent victim and that the dominant is always in the wrong.

One way or another, a dominant who uses the phrase "topping from the bottom" is expressing feelings. His or her needs and expectations are NOT being met. Whether that is "fair" or "correct" is almost irrelevant: feelings, especially when they are related to BDSM needs, do not necessarily answer to political correctness.

A submissive who is called a "bottom-topper" can either decide that the dominant's feelings matter, and try to be a more satisfying partner--or he/she can retreat from the relationship and shop for a new dominant. Obviously, if you really feel the dominant is being completely unreasonable or unfair, option B is the right thing to do. It's probably the right thing to do anyway, if you honestly don't care how your partner feels, or what his/her needs are. It's a waste of time to even attempt to submit to someone who inspires no desire to please.

_____________________________

"Women and cats will do as they please, and men and dogs should relax and get used to the idea."
-- Robert A. Heinlein

(in reply to catize)

Post #: 7

RE: Topping from the Bottom v finding a good match for ... - 3/17/2009 9:42:41 PM

catize

Posts: 3020
Joined: 3/7/2006
Status: offline

quote:

It's obviously always used when a dominant is disgusted, disappointed or frustrated with a submissive partner.

Not necessarily. I often see it used as if it is a valid concern before there is an agreement between a dominant and submissive.

quote:

feelings, especially when they are related to BDSM needs, do not necessarily answer to political correctness.

What would be the different ‘feelings related to BDSM’? Feelings are facts; there is no PC to feelings. There are no different feelings in BDSM than in any other relationship.

quote:

It's a waste of time to even attempt to submit to someone who inspires no desire to please.

I reiterate:

quote:

Until I have agreed to submit to someone, there is no bottom to top from!

_____________________________

"Power is real. But it's a lot less real if it's not perceived as power."
Robert Parker, Stranger in Paradise

(in reply to ShaktiSama)

Post #: 8

RE: Topping from the Bottom v finding a good match for ... - 3/17/2009 10:04:30 PM

ShaktiSama

Posts: 1674
Joined: 8/13/2007
Status: offline

Reiterate all you like. I have never heard the phrase used by anyone who was not already in some kind of a consensual dynamic or a scene; people who use the phrase "topping from the bottom" about someone who has not agreed to bottom in the first place are obviously insane.

_____________________________

"Women and cats will do as they please, and men and dogs should relax and get used to the idea."
-- Robert A. Heinlein

(in reply to catize)

Post #: 9

RE: Topping from the Bottom v finding a good match for ... - 3/17/2009 10:52:03 PM

ElanSubdued

Posts: 1511
Status: offline

Shakti,

quote:

I have never heard the phrase used by anyone who was not already in some kind of a consensual dynamic or a scene; people who use the phrase "topping from the bottom" about someone who has not agreed to bottom in the first place are obviously insane.

What you've written makes perfect sense to me.

I'm in the camp that believes TFTB is a vastly overused phrase. It has become a catch-all used anytime disagreements occur between dominants and submissives, tops and bottoms. However, that said, there are cases where I think the phrase has some legitimacy. In many cases the phrase "passive aggressive" (oh Lordy... there's another, overused catch-all) is perhaps what is actually meant.

I don't believe anytime a submissive doesn't follow their dominant that the submissive is instantly TFTB. Perhaps the best use of TFTB is in situations where a submissive knowingly leads and/or knowingly disobeys in a way that is fundamentally in conflict with the tenets of the BDSM relationship. (i.e. purposely and destructively short-circuiting a dominant's leadership.) Again though, there are many instances where a submissive knowingly disobeys that I would not call TFTB.

Ack! Bunch of long-winded clap trap. Sorry about that. Perhaps I'll add the following (using myself as an example):

I've been in a number of BDSM relationships as a submissive. Even when I've been a brat, been petulant and demanding, or been in conflict with my Domme's decisions, we've never used the phrase TFTB. This is seemingly one of those *BDSM literature words* that gets a lot of press and that gets buzzed around the Internet. In the real life BDSM circles in which I travel, I don't know anyone who uses this phrase (except perhaps in a playful, joking way).

Elan.

< Message edited by ElanSubdued -- 3/17/2009 11:01:33 PM >

(in reply to ShaktiSama)

Post #: 10

RE: Topping from the Bottom v finding a good match for ... - 3/17/2009 11:04:56 PM

Andalusite

Posts: 2492
Joined: 1/25/2009
Status: offline

I think "topping from the bottom" is thwacking someone just the way they tell you to, as opposed to "bottoming from the top" which is telling someone how to thwack you. It's one of my minor peeves. :) I actually haven't had anyone accuse me of topping from the bottom, but I've seen it on the forums so much here and on a different board I visit that I still find it annoying, and I just think it's phrased backassward.

In any case, during the early stages of a relationship, I think that a lot of communication to determine compatibility is a great idea, and that concern that it will be interpreted as "topping from the bottom" can make people hesitant to be honest about their actual needs and desires.

(in reply to sjskuared)

Post #: 11

RE: Topping from the Bottom v finding a good match for ... - 3/17/2009 11:55:20 PM

Kita

Posts: 30
Joined: 1/11/2009
From: Lincoln, NE
Status: offline

Statements like "You can spank/touch/whatever me now" is one. Being given 'permission' to do something that is known to be on the table of consideration (this is something I *hate*), especially if they're trying to guide the direction of where things are going to go. Somebody saying something akin to "no, I want you to do it like *this*" or giving a general guideline for how certain action should be conducted. Then there's the common method of whining about when we're going to do whatever it is s/he wants to fulfill their kink. I don't mean they shouldn't want it fulfilled, but some focus only on that while still claiming they wish to submit. There's a difference between submitting one's self and submitting one's self to receive what it is that they want and that's all. I'm hoping the people reading this understand what I'm talking about, here. Think about anybody who is fanatical about their kink while still claiming they wish to submit in a more broad manner, but when given the chance they're all about *their* kink and have trouble seeing far beyond it.

Really with me it's anything that is presented in a way that attempts to deny me my right to decide what's going to happen. This isnt the same as "I like it when you spank me/smother me/fill me/use me" or "It's so sexy when you do Y" as those are likes and dislikes and I really do like feedback. The difference is when it's presented at a time that isn't appropriate, and/or in a manner that is trying to lead me toward action they like regardless of my feeling on it.

Now, I handle my pet in ways we both enjoy very much. I love doing things to him that turn him on and drive him to a deeper level of submission to me. I don't think that can happen, however, if somebody is trying to direct me for what I'm doing rather than trusting that I will take them where they want to go if they'd just shut up and let me drive :)

-Kita-

_____________________________

~ gnothi seauton ~ beeble's Owner, Mistress, love ~ (6/15/07) ~

(in reply to Andalusite)

Post #: 12

RE: Topping from the Bottom v finding a good match for ... - 3/18/2009 9:15:59 AM

sjskuared

Posts: 51
Joined: 1/6/2005
Status: offline

I am also thinking of "if you don't do .... you are not really submissive" which I have heard more than a few times. Oh you are not a real submissive, ....

(in reply to ShaktiSama)

Post #: 13

RE: Topping from the Bottom v finding a good match for ... - 3/18/2009 10:20:38 AM

ShaktiSama

Posts: 1674
Joined: 8/13/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: sjskuared

I am also thinking of "if you don't do .... you are not really submissive" which I have heard more than a few times. Oh you are not a real submissive, ....

Until you fill in the "....." in quotation remarks, no one here can assess whether or not this was a valid statement. There are some fairly conventional and accepted definitions of "submission" that differentiate it from "bottoming" or "just being kinky". It's a relationship dynamic, basically, which not everyone is looking for and not everyone enjoys. Not everyone IS submissive, quite frankly, just because they want to have some anal sex or receive a beating once in a while. And calling yourself "submissive" when you have no intention of ceding control or power to your partner is really not a great idea. You can incur real and legitimate disappointment and anger if you market yourself sexually and emotionally as something you are not.

There is a lot of talk about "Twue Subs" and "Twue Doms" on these forums--essentially these are jokes which are intended to take the piss out of definitions of Dominance and Submission that are too prescriptive and arbitrary. The majority of these limiting definitions are obviously ridiculous to anyone who has real life experience with BDSM, i.e., "You are not Dominant if you enjoy using your slave for penetration", "True Dominants do not give hugs", "True Submissives have No Limits" or "You are not a Submissive unless you submit to EVERYONE (especially me. Right now.)".

On the other hand, I think that the idea that there is NO legitimate definition of "submission" which can differentiate it from "bottoming", "switching" or "being kinky" is equally wrong. The word "Submission" has some specific implications which "bottoming" does not. One of the unfortunate aspects of this website is that the profile software doesn't make this distinction, even while making significant distinctions between "submissive" and "slave".

*shrug* People complain a lot about labels, but they are useful for communication and social signalling. When I define myself as a "Dominant Woman", I do so because I can honestly say that I conform to at least a minimum set of expectations that go with words "Dominant" and "Woman" in the community lexicon. I am not selling myself as a Dominant when I am in fact a Submissive or even a Switch, a Service Top, etc.. I am not selling myself as a Woman when I am in fact a Male Cross-dresser, a Transgendered Person, etc..

P.S. *waves to Elan!*

< Message edited by ShaktiSama -- 3/18/2009 10:22:20 AM >

_____________________________

"Women and cats will do as they please, and men and dogs should relax and get used to the idea."
-- Robert A. Heinlein

(in reply to sjskuared)

Post #: 14

RE: Topping from the Bottom v finding a good match for ... - 3/18/2009 10:41:17 AM

ElanSubdued

Posts: 1511
Status: offline

sjskuared,

quote:

I am also thinking of "if you don't do .... you are not really submissive" which I have heard more than a few times. Oh you are not a real submissive, ....

There are manipulators everywhere. Just because someone labels themselves kinky doesn't make them exempt from human failings. Keep in mind that someone only has control over over you if you allow them to have it. Thus, if a dominant is overly brutish or domineering, you can simply remove yourself from the situation. This works like a charm (during electronic communication or face-to-face).

Elan.

(in reply to sjskuared)

Post #: 15

RE: Topping from the Bottom v finding a good match for ... - 3/18/2009 10:44:29 AM

ElanSubdued

Posts: 1511
Status: offline

Shakti,

--- *waves to Elan!*

*waves a big "hello" back*

Elan.

(in reply to ShaktiSama)

Post #: 16

RE: Topping from the Bottom v finding a good match for ... - 3/18/2009 11:09:57 AM

sjskuared

Posts: 51
Joined: 1/6/2005
Status: offline

In the interest of being specific one of the times it was "you won't have sex with my male slave so you are not really submissive."

Another one was you won't sell everything and move 4000 miles so you are not for real.

Putting those two aside, I forget what some of the others are but they were generally things that I said were limits. A few others were along the line of don't look women in the eye, or some other thing that someone felt was a good idea at the time. It was a general question, though, if you don't do ... then you are not submissive.

One person's submissive is another person's player. Instead of topping from the bottom why not just try to find people who are interested in the same things.

To be a little clearer, submission to me is when the submissive does something that he/she would rather not, or doesn't want to, do that the the dominant wants but is within negotiated limits. Yes I do understand the distinction between a top and bottom and a sadist and masochist and dominant and submissive. That said I guess I can't see how you could be a bottom and sadist at the same time.

(in reply to ShaktiSama)

Post #: 17

RE: Topping from the Bottom v finding a good match for ... - 3/18/2009 12:20:38 PM

ElanSubdued

Posts: 1511
Status: offline

Kita,

quote:

Really with me it's anything that is presented in a way that attempts to deny me my right to decide what's going to happen. This isn't the same as "I like it when you spank me/smother me/fill me/use me" or "It's so sexy when you do Y" as those are likes and dislikes and I really do like feedback. The difference is when it's presented at a time that isn't appropriate, and/or in a manner that is trying to lead me toward action they like regardless of my feeling on it.

Now, I handle my pet in ways we both enjoy very much. I love doing things to him that turn him on and drive him to a deeper level of submission to me. I don't think that can happen, however, if somebody is trying to direct me for what I'm doing rather than trusting that I will take them where they want to go if they'd just shut up and let me drive :)

What you've described is (essentially) what I meant when I used the phrase "short-circuiting a dominant" in my own post. There is a huge difference between a submissive who respectfully and at appropriate times communicates what they like versus someone who is attempting to direct regardless of the dominant's wishes. Trust, intimacy, and context very much set the stage for what is appropriate. For example, with a dominant they know well, a submissive may tease and playfully guide in a way that in other contexts would be considered topping from the bottom. When a dominant is trying to accomplish a certain effect, it's not always appropriate for a submissive to "help out" in an overt way. Therefore, I've often seen a dance that goes on between dominant and submissive partners - one where both partners support, encourage, stimulate, and flirt with one another in subtle and not so subtle ways.

As a submissive myself, I am, none-the-less, an active participant in my relationships - active in helping my domme accomplish her goals, active in accomplishing my own goals, and active in accomplishing mutual goals. On the other hand, if my partner says something like "please be quiet and let me experiment on my own", well... that's an entirely different matter and, provided I trust the person, I'm happy to be their canvas. (Okay, perhaps, depending on what my partner is "experimenting" with, I may not be able to remain quiet, but you get the idea.)

Thanks for posting. I enjoyed reading your thoughts very much.

Elan.

(in reply to Kita)

Post #: 18

RE: Topping from the Bottom v finding a good match for ... - 3/18/2009 12:49:10 PM

ElanSubdued

Posts: 1511
Status: offline

sjskuared,

quote:

In the interest of being specific one of the times it was "you won't have sex with my male slave so you are not really submissive." Another one was you won't sell everything and move 4000 miles so you are not for real. Putting those two aside, I forget what some of the others are but they were generally things that I said were limits. A few others were along the line of don't look women in the eye, or some other thing that someone felt was a good idea at the time. It was a general question, though, if you don't do ... then you are not submissive.

Manipulators and manipulative relationships aren't that hard to find. People on the Internet (for example) will ask you to do all kinds of wacky things. My point is you don't have to do anything you don't want to. There is a certain class of dominant that believes their dominance gives them the right to be abusive. Abuse is... just that... abuse. It's a little frustrating filtering through all this, but there is a huge difference between the type of manipulator you're giving examples of and a respectful, responsible, loving dominant.

quote:

To be a little clearer, submission to me is when the submissive does something that he/she would rather not, or doesn't want to, do that the the dominant wants but is within negotiated limits.

You're thinking seems a little incomplete. There are times, as you've described, that submissives do things they don't want to do simply because their dominants have asked them to. To stop here though is a little misleading. Submissives and dominants both do things they don't want to (and sometimes simply because their partner has asked them). Equally true is that submissives and dominants do things they like to do (hopefully with each other's encouragement). I tend to look at dominant and submissive roles as the agreed upon leader versus and the agreed upon executive assistant. Each person faces activities they like and dislike.

Elan.

(in reply to sjskuared)

Post #: 19

RE: Topping from the Bottom v finding a good match for ... - 3/18/2009 3:43:00 PM

hopelessfool

Posts: 988
Joined: 7/29/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kita

Statements like "You can spank/touch/whatever me now" is one. Being given 'permission' to do something that is known to be on the table of consideration (this is something I *hate*), especially if they're trying to guide the direction of where things are going to go. Somebody saying something akin to "no, I want you to do it like *this*" or giving a general guideline for how certain action should be conducted. Then there's the common method of whining about when we're going to do whatever it is s/he wants to fulfill their kink. I don't mean they shouldn't want it fulfilled, but some focus only on that while still claiming they wish to submit. There's a difference between submitting one's self and submitting one's self to receive what it is that they want and that's all. I'm hoping the people reading this understand what I'm talking about, here. Think about anybody who is fanatical about their kink while still claiming they wish to submit in a more broad manner, but when given the chance they're all about *their* kink and have trouble seeing far beyond it.

So If you have an abused or hurt submissive whos overcoming something thats become a fear for them and them telling you okay lets use a paddle as an example:

Say I hate and am terrified of paddles. One is used on me i tend to either go catatonic or am enraged and start hitting back. So you being my Domly dom decide we are going to work on paddles. First things out of my mouth are going to be dont hit me on the breasts I CANT TAKE it..... or more so please hit me only here get me used to it. You think you know better about my mental state what i can and can not handled better then my ownself in such situations?

Sometimes us subly ones arent topping from the bottom we are simply pointing out what your about to do with us in particular is not so smart to do if you wish to keep said submissive.

_____________________________

" I have nothing left to give, I have found the perfect end, You remain to make it hurt, disappear in to the dirt, carry me to heavens arms.....Dear Agony Just let go of me, suffer slowly, is this the way its gotta be, Dear Agony...."

(in reply to Kita)

Post #: 20

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