RE: No Condoms In Africa, says the Pope

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rulemylife -> RE: No Condoms In Africa, says the Pope (3/18/2009 2:50:48 PM)
You know growing up (9 years of Catholic school) I was taught the Pope was infallible. That he directly spoke for and was appointed by God, even though he is elected by a group of Cardinals we were told their decisions were divinely inspired. Then we have this guy who was a former member of the Hitler Youth. Infallible indeed. More like another politician.

rulemylife -> RE: No Condoms In Africa, says the Pope (3/18/2009 2:55:07 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: slvemike4u quote: ORIGINAL: rulemylife Mike, why respect something that has no logic to it? It's not like Catholic doctrine has not undergone many changes over the years. Since VaticanII they have conformed their views to the reality of the day. Maybe time for some new updates. This isn't Catholic doctrine...this is a core tenet of the faith.To concede that sex is for anything other than propagation is heresy.This wouldn't be an update this would be a reversal leading to catclysim in the church.Luther and the Reformation would seem tame after the response to such a papel declaration And do you think this is why the Church is losing so many of us? In this day and age to promote a belief that sex is only for procreation?

slvemike4u -> RE: No Condoms In Africa, says the Pope (3/18/2009 2:56:29 PM)
I really can't believe I find myself in the position of defending the Pope.....but he is not a politician he is the head of a major religion and his words carry the weight of faith...not fact.Anyone who is waiting for this Pope or any other Pope to condone the use of condoms is fooling themselves.Not in this lifetime,it would rip the Catholic church apart.

slvemike4u -> RE: No Condoms In Africa, says the Pope (3/18/2009 2:59:09 PM)
Could be Rule,I didn't say I believe or agree with what he says. In pont of fact I couldn't disagree more,but expecting any thing else from a Pope of the Catholic Church is a mistake.

KaineD -> RE: No Condoms In Africa, says the Pope (3/18/2009 3:04:03 PM)
The catholic church only took a stance against condoms in the 20th century, I believe. Could be wrong.

rulemylife -> RE: No Condoms In Africa, says the Pope (3/18/2009 3:04:24 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: slvemike4u I really can't believe I find myself in the position of defending the Pope.....but he is not a politician he is the head of a major religion and his words carry the weight of faith...not fact.Anyone who is waiting for this Pope or any other Pope to condone the use of condoms is fooling themselves.Not in this lifetime,it would rip the Catholic church apart. I don't know about that. I mean how ridiculous is the Church's position on contraception and how many Catholics actually adhere to it? I think what is ripping the Church apart is the focus on these dated traditional beliefs that really have no part in today's culture.

rulemylife -> RE: No Condoms In Africa, says the Pope (3/18/2009 3:08:20 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: slvemike4u Could be Rule,I didn't say I believe or agree with what he says. In pont of fact I couldn't disagree more,but expecting any thing else from a Pope of the Catholic Church is a mistake. I don't know, I think John Paul was moving in the right direction but this Pope is a throwback to the old days. Kind of like Dubya's long-lost grandfather. [:D]

slvemike4u -> RE: No Condoms In Africa, says the Pope (3/18/2009 3:23:23 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: KaineD The catholic church only took a stance against condoms in the 20th century, I believe. Could be wrong. And how long have they been opposed to contraceptive's in whatever form they took.....or for that matter sex without the sacrement of marriage.

atlboy77 -> RE: No Condoms In Africa, says the Pope (3/18/2009 3:24:02 PM)
The problem is that poor people in undeveloped countries are the ones who are more likely to listen to that crap, which doesn't help them at all. Is the Catholic church going to be financially responsible for each and every case of AIDS caused by not using condoms by one of their followers? It will cost the church a lot less to distribute condoms, because it will prevent AIDS. Prevention is better than treatment. That may not be an issue to the pope, but it is an issue to everyone who will be infected with AIDS. In my opinion, the Catholic church's position on condoms contradicts their position on abortion. They are against abortion because life should not be killed... well, if they are for a baby's life, why are they saying things that will lead to more AIDS, STDs, and more victims? And why should people respect or tolerate that policy? Just because it is a part of a religion or a culture? It should be talked about, argued, and countered. A lot has changed in Christianity over the years, and it looks like there is more to come.

atlboy77 -> RE: No Condoms In Africa, says the Pope (3/18/2009 3:25:54 PM)
The pope has "assembled a panel of scientists and theologians to consider the narrow question of whether to allow condoms for married couples, one of whom has HIV, the virus that causes AIDS." http://www.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/africa/03/17/cameroon.pope/index.html?iref=newssearch May be in 50 years they will have a panel to consider whether to allow sinners to use condoms while sinning.

slvemike4u -> RE: No Condoms In Africa, says the Pope (3/18/2009 3:26:50 PM)
Intelligent people can agree that those views are ridiculous Rule.But to the true believers they are part and parcel of Church doctrine......hell when they stopped celebrating Mass in Latin the outcry was enormous

rulemylife -> RE: No Condoms In Africa, says the Pope (3/18/2009 3:36:37 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: atlboy77 The problem is that poor people in undeveloped countries are the ones who are more likely to listen to that crap, which doesn't help them at all. Is the Catholic church going to be financially responsible for each and every case of AIDS caused by not using condoms by one of their followers? It will cost the church a lot less to distribute condoms, because it will prevent AIDS. Prevention is better than treatment. That may not be an issue to the pope, but it is an issue to everyone who will be infected with AIDS. In my opinion, the Catholic church's position on condoms contradicts their position on abortion. They are against abortion because life should not be killed... well, if they are for a baby's life, why are they saying things that will lead to more AIDS, STDs, and more victims? And why should people respect or tolerate that policy? Just because it is a part of a religion or a culture? It should be talked about, argued, and countered. A lot has changed in Christianity over the years, and it looks like there is more to come. Because the Church believes that any sexual activity should only be for the purpose of procreation. We were even taught masturbation was a sin for the same reason. Apparently life begins in my balls and I should only use it to impregnate someone, within the bounds of marriage of course, otherwise it is wrong.

Tantriqu -> RE: No Condoms In Africa, says the Pope (3/18/2009 4:10:36 PM)
Wonder how many physicians, women and AIDS orphans were on the 'panel of scientists and theologians'? And this from the body of men who imprisoned Galileo for daring to say the earth revolved around the sun and had people tortured for eating meat on Friday. Did anyone remember to tell him Catholics get more abortions because they don't know/use simple birth control? So, a guy will forgiven for committing adultery and killing his wife and unborn child by infecting her with AIDS, but not for wearing a bit of vegetable matter on his erection? Fuck that, I say. Some beliefs and believers should not be respected. No wonder atheism is the fastest growing belief system.

Lynnxz -> RE: No Condoms In Africa, says the Pope (3/18/2009 4:22:04 PM)
Don't blame it all on the pope! The US is idiotic about condom usage as well. PEPFAR, the President's Emergency Plan for AIDS Relief -a 15 billion dollar package- cut a program in Vietnam over $60,000 in funding after the rep for the Vietnam program wanted to use the money for condom education and distribution. More budget cuts probably soon followed. On a side note, PEPFAR also made a stand saying they would not contribute to organizations who promoted or preformed abortions for women who wanted them. I liked the other pope better. :-/

cavewomancollar -> RE: No Condoms In Africa, says the Pope (3/18/2009 4:25:27 PM)
sorry to say.. but i think he is Hitler reborn.. he wants world domination.. and abuses his power to the furthest..

slvemike4u -> RE: No Condoms In Africa, says the Pope (3/18/2009 4:53:12 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: cavewomancollar sorry to say.. but i think he is Hitler reborn.. he wants world domination.. and abuses his power to the furthest.. Well as long as we are restricting ourselves to rational statements....

UPSG -> RE: No Condoms In Africa, says the Pope (3/18/2009 5:25:32 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: rulemylife Which is one of the reasons the Catholic Church is dying a slow death. The Catholic Church is growing in Africa (Asia as well) and there is an abundance of news source on this if one reads outside of Western self censored media. Camille, the problem amongst Catholics in Africa - clergy or otherwise - is not sex with Children nor even adhering to Catholic moral teachings. The problem tends to be of the heterosexual promiscuity type for both clergy and laity. Catholic Priests over in certain parts of Black-Africa (I'm distinguishing from Arab or Semitic Africans) have raped Nuns and forced Mother Superiors to send them scores of Nuns to have sex. Catholic laity on the other hand are known sometimes to marry multiple wives, as traditional in Pagan African ways, and Catholic men married to singular ladies, have been known to cheat on their wives. The point? Catholic teaching on condoms are listened to by laity no more than the teaching on chastity (chastity = monogamy, fidelity, or sexual absences in the lack of matrimony or celibacy in light of religious vows). Within Black-Africa there are greater regional and ethnic customs revolving around what is considered "manly" that has more to do with the spread of HIV than the teachings on condoms in Catholicism. I for one believe condoms should be used - even for married couples regarding reproductive concerns - but blaming Catholicism for the higher rate of HIV spread among promiscuous, married, heterosexual men, or among meth taking, promiscuous, homosexual men just makes no sense. It's illogical because it supposes if the Pope says stop driving cars all Catholics would stop driving cars, or that if the Pope said be faithful to your wife or that no Priest should have sex with a child, that therefore all Catholic men will instantly obey. Hell no. If I remember correctly, out of all religions in the United States, Catholic women abort their children more than any other U.S. women. Last I check abortion was strongly condemned in Catholicism. But then so was the slave trade at one point but the vast majority of Catholics ignored the Papal encyclicals on that thinking the man insane on what was "natural" and profitable.

rulemylife -> RE: No Condoms In Africa, says the Pope (3/18/2009 5:36:54 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: UPSG The problem tends to be of the heterosexual promiscuity type for both clergy and laity. Catholic Priests over in certain parts of Black-Africa (I'm distinguishing from Arab or Semitic Africans) have raped Nuns and forced Mother Superiors to send them scores of Nuns to have sex. Catholic laity on the other hand are known sometimes to marry multiple wives, as traditional in Pagan African ways, and Catholic men married to singular ladies, have been known to cheat on their wives. Uh-huh. While I am definitely a lapsed Catholic and have many issues with my own Church, I think you really need to provide some documentation when you throw out these types of accusations.

UPSG -> RE: No Condoms In Africa, says the Pope (3/18/2009 5:49:13 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: rulemylife You know growing up (9 years of Catholic school) I was taught the Pope was infallible. That he directly spoke for and was appointed by God, even though he is elected by a group of Cardinals we were told their decisions were divinely inspired. Then we have this guy who was a former member of the Hitler Youth. Infallible indeed. More like another politician. That's not what the Church teaches on the doctrine of infallibility. And I would challenge you to prove such a thing. Catholics have always regarded Popes as sharing in the possibility of being sent to eternal damnation in hell - in fact a few are suspect of being there. Infallibility as a doctrine basically asserts the Pope can not teach what has not already been taught. Furthermore, the Pope only speak infallible when speaking ex cathedra (spelling?). Which has only been a few times throughout Catholic history. And if Catholics were taught as you say they were then logic dictates every utterance out of the Popes mouth is immediately regarded as dogma and not doctrine or personal opinion. And it should be pointed out Catholic doctrine - as it relates to the culture of good or bad Popes via Petrine succession and the Holy Spirit - is more mature than the partisan political culture in contemporary United States. It is not a black and white issue. In the Catholic view a Pope with great personal failings or who decides wrongly on a number of issues can still be used for some greater, unknown, good in God's ultimate historical plan. Or as Thomas Merton (well studied on Zen Buddhism but a Catholic monk) once questioned to himself, Could Hitler have been used in some greater plan of God? That should not be crazy for an American population that dropped two atomic bombs on men, women, and children and for a nation determined to keeps so many hydrogen bombs it could not the entire world back into the stone age. Won't stop Yankee's from doing their fireworks or waving their flags on 4 July though. Roberto Saviano pointed out something rather interesting in his book Gomorrah. He stated that the AK-47 has killed more people than the atomic bombs have, and I believe he even stated it has killed more people than HIV/AIDS. Now, for the record, the Catholic Bishops of the USA state all Catholics in the U.S. must vote for gun control. (gun violence is the leading cause of death for young black males - to bad the Catholic Church can't be blamed for that)

UPSG -> RE: No Condoms In Africa, says the Pope (3/18/2009 5:59:43 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: rulemylife quote: ORIGINAL: UPSG The problem tends to be of the heterosexual promiscuity type for both clergy and laity. Catholic Priests over in certain parts of Black-Africa (I'm distinguishing from Arab or Semitic Africans) have raped Nuns and forced Mother Superiors to send them scores of Nuns to have sex. Catholic laity on the other hand are known sometimes to marry multiple wives, as traditional in Pagan African ways, and Catholic men married to singular ladies, have been known to cheat on their wives. Uh-huh. While I am definitely a lapsed Catholic and have many issues with my own Church, I think you really need to provide some documentation when you throw out these types of accusations. I can find it on the internet doing a search. I'll do so a little later and then post it.* I had to read some article in my class under the Africology department about the culture in Black-Africa of men cheating on their wives with prostitutes - this being considered the leading cause of HIV spread and transmission to Black-African women. I about this before I read that article as it is fairly common knowledge within the global discussion of HIV. Read up on the HIV spread throughout India or even China. Globally HIV is a heterosexual disease* if a sexual orientation had to be assigned to it. I know few Americans are aware of this because from Brazil to the U.S. it's rate of spread tends to be highest among the category of "male on male" sex. And the HIV things is blown out of proportion in the U.S. - by the media and interest parties. In both Brazil and the U.S. less than 1% of the population has HIV/AIDS. Among Black-Americans, nattionally, I did the math myself and figured it a little over 2%, or 2.3%, which would be more than double the national rate.

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