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BDSM activism- a step forward in the civil rights movem... - 3/20/2009 4:59:16 PM   
stella41b


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'And in the naked light I saw ten thousand people maybe more
People talking without speaking
People hearing without listening
People writing songs that voices never shared
No one dared...'

Simon and Garfunkel 'The Sound of Silence'

What has Lech Walesa got to do with BDSM? First glance not much it would seem. But on closer inspection maybe, just maybe.

It was in 1980 in the Lenin Shipyard in Gdansk Lech Walesa together with Aleksander Hall (and later Adam Michnik and Jacek Kuron) started the Solidarity movement which was a broad anti-communist social movement ranging from people associated with the Catholic Church to those on the far left who were opposed to communism (and there are such people). The aim was to create a 'self-governing republic' which replaced the Sozialistrealpolitik of the Polish PZPR ruling party, the puppet style derivative of Soviet totalitarianism and communist rule.

It was the formation of Solidarity in Gdansk in 1980 which led directly to General Jaruszelski imposing martial law in Poland on Dec 13 1981 in an attempt to break up the movement. Curfews were imposed together with internal visas and severe shortages of supplies and goods in shops which led to people queuing not just for hours, but for days outside empty shops where everything was rationed and available 'na kartke' or on cards.

An integral element of the whole Solidarity movement was the Solicitus Rei Solidaris teachings of Pope John Paul II in the Catholic Church which were derived from Solicitudo Rei Socialis, a major teaching document within the Catholic Church which identifies the concept of solidarity with the poor and the marginalized as a component element of the Gospel and human participation in the common good. Pope John Paul II was perhaps the most powerful supporter of the Polish Solidarity movement and was instrumental in its success. It was the Pope who told those involved not to be afraid, for there are many of them.

Additionally Father Jerzy Popieluszki gave sermons to striking Polish workers. but in October 1984 in the forssts surrounding Torun in the centre of Poland four Government agents led by Grzegorz Pechalski from Department IV Anti-Catholic agency of the Polish internal ministry brutally murdered Popieluszki and dumped his body in a sack by the banks of the Vistula River just outside Wloclawek, some 30-40 miles from Torun.

However in 1989 Lech Walesa triumphed managing to get the communist PZPR Polish government to talks which then led to him replacing them as government by becoming the first post-communist Polish president in 1990. However is it not ironic that almost 20 years later in the same country who came together in support of the poor and marginalized that BDSM is now outlawed and has been driven underground by the imposition of harsh legislation which makes 'sex with force or violence' a criminal offence which can send someone to prison for up to five years?

The BDSM community is not a community of like-minded people, and gone are the times when it's just a few subcultures such as Leather, Old Guard, Gor, etc, for the Internet has brought BDSM to wider society and now the BDSM community is as diverse and widespread as society itself and contains many different subcultures, social groups and all sexual orientations. Many who consider themselves part of the lifestyle also consider themselves heterosexual, and there are many here no doubt who also identify themselves with 'the lifestyle', 'the community' or who form their relationships based on authority transfer dynamics who aren't heterosexual, but gay, lesbian, bisexual, transgendered, pansexual, and so on.

But we are also a diverse community of people from wider society, rich, poor, business people, unemployed, healthy, sick, disabled, mothers, fathers, sisters, brothers and we are all united it would seem by one common element or component factor - we guard our privacy and freedomn jealously for if such details were to get out we would face social stigma, status loss and discrimination from that part of wider society who we term 'vanilla', who we assume dobn;t understand, don't share and don't accept. We are all in some way marginalized, simply by our presence here.

It would appear that many would associate BDSM activism with protesting against laws forbidding violent pornography but this is just the tip of the iceberg, for this could lead to invasion of privacy and acts between consenting adults being misconstrued and seen as abusive, violent, aggressive, sick, perverted, twisted.. you all know the adjectives. We are talking about censorship, oppression, and things needing to be 'behind closed doors'.. very much in the same way things needed to be over 60 years in Eastern Europe.

The civil rights movement appears to be an ongoing struggle even forty years after Martin Luther King was assasinated in Memphis and with the election of Barack Obama as US President we can see just how far it would appear the civil rights movement has come, but not only, but also how far it still has to go - for we live in a society where individuality and subculture is frowned upon, where being different is suspect, where racism still exists as does homophobia, transphobia, and we can see just how willing the authorities were to go in stigmatizing Muslims in their 'war on terrorism'. We are living in times when we are seeing technology being used against us, and our civil rights are being eroded for 'security', 'safety' and seemingly the common good.

Am I advocating a bloody revolution here? Protests? Confrontation? No, I'm not. That time for revolution has come and gone, there are no more trade unions, and the authorities are tuned m in closely to any mass organized subversion or confrontation.Besides so many people have lost their livelihoods, are losing them or face the risk of doing so I see no sense in rocking the boat. There are other means which are more effective.

However I feel there is a need, not just a need but also an opportunity for a new way of thinking. For years we have had the black civil rights movement, the striving for equality between men and women, the movement of the LGBT community, gay rights, and there are many who do face discrimination and persecution from wider society for being who they are or for their lifestyle choices and nowhere else in society do these people all come together in one place but within the BDSM community.

However there are many people here reading this who are able to step away from the computer and walk out into the street and nobody would be able to tell the difference or assume anything untoward. There are also many such people in this community.

For some time I have strongly believed that what we call those who engage in WIITWD and the BDSM community to be the missing component in the civil rights movement, and rather than see ourselves as part of a minority, a small community, to perhaps take stock and take a good look around us and understand that we are not just one community, but a collective of a diverse rasnge of different communities all united by the need to protect and maintain our rights of freedom when it comes to identity, personal self-expression, privacy and the way we conduct our interpersonal relationships and ultimately live our own lives.

If we can grasp this concept of solidarity and unity individually, then what is to stop us achieving the same awareness of such a concept collectively? If we are collectively a significant part of what is known as wider society and not just a small community or a subculture, and considering the amount of people among us who profess to be dominant, submissive, switch and interested in power, control and authority transfer, and we know we can achieve so much together collectively, then what have we got to be afraid of?

Consider that I am posting this, and you are reading this, on a Message Board which can be accessed worldwide via the Internet. Think about the words of the late Pope John Paul II once again..

"Do not be afraid, for there are many of you.."

Your thoughts, comments, opinions..



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RE: BDSM activism- a step forward in the civil rights m... - 3/20/2009 5:12:26 PM   
Prinsexx


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Dear sister:
I posted this as part of another thread:
....Sex, sexuality, bdsm and gender are not the political movements for personal freedom they once were. Those freedoms are come and indeed gone as there are more pressing personal freedoms to fight for like the Third World and the ecology of the Planet. The fact that I like to be chained, clamped, cut and whipped has no bearing upon the privation of my fellow human beings.....
and then I watched something on television this evening that has lead me to think again. Indeed you know as I text you I was about to start a thread entitled 'sisterhood'.
The item in question was about the Afghanistan equivalent of Pop Idol. One of only three female contestants was forced to withdraw, lost her apartment and went into hiding. All for hearing her head and daring to dance during the song she was singing....
see:
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/asia/female-finalist-in-afghanistans-pop-idol-angers-traditionalists-795742.html
And so I immediately, as if it had hit me like a bolt of lightning for the first time in many years, began to value my freedom. If I do not have freedom I have nothing for surely I am imprisoned in even the greatest of health or wealth if I do not have freedom?
And thus I have freedom to give of myself and consent to enslavement. I am not forced to do it. I can release myself from it. Indeed I consent to it because the security of its negative freedom gives me shelter and comfort from the demands of the positive freedom of my high profile and demanding work life.
I am free to please my Master, free to be a receptacle for His pleasure, free to have limits or no limits if I choose. Free to express my bisexuality and my polyamority. Indeed free, free, free free: free to submit myself to pain and imprisonment as pleasure.
I cannot even begin to imagine what it is like to actually be a prisoner because indeed the only thing that imprisons me us my womanhood.
I have always been a feminist in that I have valued my womanhood as a god given gift and even in my most humanist and even in my most agnostic and/or most faithful moments my womanhood remains the card I was dealt and the one which gives me the greatest pleasure as I wake and sleep grateful for another day.
There is nothing I take more pride in thamn being held in service simply because of my qualities as a submissive woman.
You are my sister and I know for different and for similar reasons you and I have forged ahead in a battle with what womanhood stands for. We both do it from within I believe as neither of us had nurturing environmenys or indeed role models upon which we could base our behaviour.
Together we stand and together we fall.
And yet I cannot say i win this battle lest I bring the frailest of those I leave behind me to fall and stumble. And so I am somewhat lost as to how to help those women who may not dance.
Worth saying again: I am lost as to how to help those women who may not dance when I take each tango for granted.
There is a civil rights movement about to start. I am sure of it.
Prin xxxx
 


< Message edited by Prinsexx -- 3/20/2009 5:28:28 PM >


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RE: BDSM activism- a step forward in the civil rights m... - 3/20/2009 8:01:57 PM   
AcademyForSlaves


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Hi.

I agree there should be more BDSM activists groups and organizations but it could be there's lots of attention on other worldly issues right now so may be it gets kicked off to the side.

We love hearing from people who support and share our interests.

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RE: BDSM activism- a step forward in the civil rights m... - 3/21/2009 1:54:34 AM   
Prinsexx


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Stella: woke up thinking why there's a direct conflict between bdsm and civil rights... and there is.
Civil rights is action turned out on and behalf of thos who are less free, more endangered, more captive politically, than ourselves.
Essentially bdsm is selfish. The world view is that it is. We, as a so-called community, are having our rights slowly but surely eroded. Media limitation, and publication is one example of that.
How come my last publisher said he couldn't endorse 'slavery'. I lost all respect for him at that point if he didn't know the difference between the consensual and non-consensual model.
So: bdsm is essentially selfish.
PS adding Look at the history of sexual freedom in Britain and read about Cynthia Payne.
The only reason that in 1987 Mrs Payne was acquitted of nine charges of controlling prostitutes at her home in south west London was because one of her clients had been the Judge and he was just looking out for his own person and not because he was interested in furthering the civil rights movement.
news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/february/11/newsid_2539000/2539565.stm
So: bdsm is essentially selfish.

< Message edited by Prinsexx -- 3/21/2009 2:00:18 AM >


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RE: BDSM activism- a step forward in the civil rights m... - 3/21/2009 8:54:31 AM   
pinkwind


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i don't, and won't directly, advocate or lobby on behalf of kinky people as a grouping. Reason why is that i have chosen where my efforts would be better expended, and advocate and lobby on behalf of the disabled. Have done so for aeons, well before i became disabled myself.

That said, sexuality is encompassed within that remit, so there will undoubtedly come a time when my efforts will have some small positive benefit on the kink front too. As it stands i do support Backlash an applaud their efforts along with other organisations and individuals, but have made my choice and am staying with it.

Personally i do not see community here, or at least only in it's very widest sense, nor do i subscribe to calling my life lived a lifestyle affected. that granted, most revolutions, protests and lobby groups are made up of individuals coming together under the one banner to right a wrong, or protect certain freedoms. The most successful tend to be those who come together more by osmosis than organisation, more a groundswell of people power rather than an organised entity. The voices of individuals gathered together for a common purpose are most loudly heard.

So, i will stick to what i do best, and wish those who want to place themselves in the van of a kink upswell all the best, society as a whole should be more aware of measures that not only effect a narrow slice of the population, but impact on all of us if we but knew it.



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RE: BDSM activism- a step forward in the civil rights m... - 3/21/2009 9:00:10 AM   
Arpig


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I find he idea of "organized" bdsm to be ludicrous

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RE: BDSM activism- a step forward in the civil rights m... - 3/21/2009 9:52:00 AM   
domiguy


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I wouldn't want to take part in any organized revolt..."our" group is convoluted in it's beliefs and thoughts.  I don't agree with all that transpires out here.

I personally think it is criminal to strike a woman out of anger...Now "for pleasure" that is an entirely different animal.

I think that there  are many people that have reached wiitwd from a path that is filled with abuse. A path that is not healthy nor should be promoted.

Our flag could be the cover of "Smell the Glove" from spinal tap.

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RE: BDSM activism- a step forward in the civil rights m... - 3/21/2009 10:03:02 AM   
Prinsexx


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quote:

ORIGINAL: domiguy

I wouldn't want to take part in any organized revolt..."our" group is convoluted in it's beliefs and thoughts.  I don't agree with all that transpires out here.

I personally think it is criminal to strike a woman out of anger...Now "for pleasure" that is an entirely different animal.

I think that there  are many people that have reached wiitwd from a path that is filled with abuse. A path that is not healthy nor should be promoted.

Our flag could be the cover of "Smell the Glove" from spinal tap.

I do agree that many of 'us'... if indeed I can even assume to speak on behalf of 'us' came to bdsm out of abuse. It would have taken a great deal of repression on my part not to deviate towards a place where pain and pleasure get seriously crossed.
But as a woman whose body spans five decades I recall a time when I felt my body to be an instrument of expression and freedom (albeit in the submissive position). Unfortunately aids put an end to the freefall.
I also know that once I got a taste of freedom it was a life of no return. And I see my own children.,,, fledging adults that they are... take their freedom for granted. But there's no point in fighting a war that's already won. And it's impossible to fight a war on anyone elses' behalf.
Maybe there is as much comfort in the burqaas there is clamps and chains.



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RE: BDSM activism- a step forward in the civil rights m... - 3/21/2009 1:08:27 PM   
eyesopened


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I'm sorry but SMBD is so vague and I haven't any agreement from anyone on exactly what is right and what is wrong and what is acceptable and what is not acceptable.  What rights exactly am I missing????  I wear my collar daily, even to work.  We live the way we want to live, we are able to marry or not marry as we choose.  I'm very confused as to how we are downtrodden or in other ways not able to get health insurance or own businesses or vote or any other civil freedom.

We start down a very slippery slope when we include the right to have sex any way we want and force other sto accept the way we have sex because there are a whole lot of folks, who want to have sex with unmentionables and I would rather keep my hood and cuffs in a drawer in my closet than to have a society where the only rule is "Do what thou wilt"

Besides.... the "naughtly" aspect has its appeal and take that away and what's gonna become "naughty"?

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RE: BDSM activism- a step forward in the civil rights m... - 3/21/2009 1:10:00 PM   
stella41b


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Prinsexx

Essentially bdsm is selfish.



Possibly yes, but is it entirely? BDSM isn't something you can 'do' all on your own, is it? You at least need someone else to engage in it, and ideally people around you to support you, right?


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RE: BDSM activism- a step forward in the civil rights m... - 3/21/2009 1:16:20 PM   
stella41b


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quote:

ORIGINAL: pinkwind

i don't, and won't directly, advocate or lobby on behalf of kinky people as a grouping.




Let me ask you pinkwind, did you advocate on behalf of disabled people because they were disabled, or because they are people? Do you not see something similar here? This isn't so much about advocating kink, but more about advocating people.

Kink is a bit like sex.. it doesn't need any advocacy or promotion.. it's already popular and in the minds of many.

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RE: BDSM activism- a step forward in the civil rights m... - 3/21/2009 1:18:02 PM   
stella41b


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Arpig

I find he idea of "organized" bdsm to be ludicrous


Me too, which is why I now stay well away from those ridiculous submissive vs. slave debates.

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RE: BDSM activism- a step forward in the civil rights m... - 3/21/2009 1:28:57 PM   
stella41b


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quote:

ORIGINAL: domiguy

I wouldn't want to take part in any organized revolt..."our" group is convoluted in it's beliefs and thoughts. I don't agree with all that transpires out here.



I did write did I not that the time for any sort of revolution (or revolt) has come and gone? Does there really need to be any sort of revolt or revolution anyway? Maybe 'our' group isn't really 'our' group anymore but a smaller chunk of the wider society it comes from, just as broad and just as diverse. I'm sure you don't agree with all that transpires out here, neither do I, but then again is that really humanly possible?

quote:

ORIGINAL: domiguy

I personally think it is criminal to strike a woman out of anger...Now "for pleasure" that is an entirely different animal.



Agreed. Reason and motivation can be just as important as action, right?

quote:

ORIGINAL: domiguy

I think that there are many people that have reached wiitwd from a path that is filled with abuse. A path that is not healthy nor should be promoted.



Agreed DG but this isn't about that path, it's not about the abuse, and it's not about the kink, but about the fact that they're still people.

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RE: BDSM activism- a step forward in the civil rights m... - 3/21/2009 1:40:23 PM   
stella41b


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quote:

ORIGINAL: eyesopened

I'm sorry but SMBD is so vague and I haven't any agreement from anyone on exactly what is right and what is wrong and what is acceptable and what is not acceptable. What rights exactly am I missing????


Agreed, BDSM is so vague, there is no agreement because there is no right and wrong acceptable or unacceptable. It is entirely individual.

You may not be missing them,. but we are talking about the rights to be yourself, live as you wish, form relationships with whoever, and engage in whatever activites yuo wish s a consenting adult in the privacy of your own home.

This is of course within the law and within societal norms. But what if they change and those freedoms you now enjoy are taken away from you or you have to break the law to continue them - what then?

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RE: BDSM activism- a step forward in the civil rights m... - 3/21/2009 2:06:14 PM   
DavanKael


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Beautifully written piece, Stella. 
I do believe/participate in activism, predominantly via living my beliefs.  :> 
  Davan

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RE: BDSM activism- a step forward in the civil rights m... - 3/21/2009 2:38:32 PM   
pinkwind


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quote:

ORIGINAL: stella41b


quote:

ORIGINAL: pinkwind

i don't, and won't directly, advocate or lobby on behalf of kinky people as a grouping.




Let me ask you pinkwind, did you advocate on behalf of disabled people because they were disabled, or because they are people? Do you not see something similar here? This isn't so much about advocating kink, but more about advocating people.

Kink is a bit like sex.. it doesn't need any advocacy or promotion.. it's already popular and in the minds of many.


i started advocating and lobbying for wheelchair users and the need for public access as well as better adapted housing, to bring an end to the discrimination that kept all members of society enjoying similar activities, and widened that to include disability as a whole later on.

Yes, we disabled folk are people and i wouldn't work from any other basic premise, and as i said earlier, matters of sexuality do come within the remit i have stuck to. That we are all people and deserving of advocacy and lobbying to end ridiculous, draconian lawmaking that erodes privacy and liberty hasn't escaped me, it's just that there is only so much time to give over to such activity so i made a judgement to concentrate on disability issues and hope others would step up and fight their own corners.

i offer what support i can give, but in the end i go with what i know about more, from the early standpoint of having disabled relatives and friends, and latterly my own failing health. Having one family member who had a hand in formulating the Disable Discrimination Act here in the UK i have a better understanding than some of the issues pertaining to disability and the law, and also have an easier time getting points across to those who matter. i just use the advantages i have to advance a cause very close to my heart.




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RE: BDSM activism- a step forward in the civil rights m... - 3/21/2009 5:51:15 PM   
Prinsexx


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quote:

ORIGINAL: stella41b

quote:

ORIGINAL: Prinsexx

Essentially bdsm is selfish.



Possibly yes, but is it entirely? BDSM isn't something you can 'do' all on your own, is it? You at least need someone else to engage in it, and ideally people around you to support you, right?


Oh believe me I met some selfish fkrs who were really doing it with themselves even though it looked like they were playin with someone else!
And yes also agree partly with what you are saying but a twosome isn't exactly a civil rights movement.


< Message edited by Prinsexx -- 3/21/2009 5:53:37 PM >


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RE: BDSM activism- a step forward in the civil rights m... - 3/21/2009 6:38:17 PM   
stella41b


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quote:

ORIGINAL: pinkwind

[/font][/color]


Let me ask you pinkwind, did you advocate on behalf of disabled people because they were disabled, or because they are people? Do you not see something similar here? This isn't so much about advocating kink, but more about advocating people.

Kink is a bit like sex.. it doesn't need any advocacy or promotion.. it's already popular and in the minds of many.


i started advocating and lobbying for wheelchair users and the need for public access as well as better adapted housing, to bring an end to the discrimination that kept all members of society enjoying similar activities, and widened that to include disability as a whole later on.

Yes, we disabled folk are people and i wouldn't work from any other basic premise, and as i said earlier, matters of sexuality do come within the remit i have stuck to. That we are all people and deserving of advocacy and lobbying to end ridiculous, draconian lawmaking that erodes privacy and liberty hasn't escaped me, it's just that there is only so much time to give over to such activity so i made a judgement to concentrate on disability issues and hope others would step up and fight their own corners.

i offer what support i can give, but in the end i go with what i know about more, from the early standpoint of having disabled relatives and friends, and latterly my own failing health. Having one family member who had a hand in formulating the Disable Discrimination Act here in the UK i have a better understanding than some of the issues pertaining to disability and the law, and also have an easier time getting points across to those who matter. i just use the advantages i have to advance a cause very close to my heart.


[/font][/color]


And this is what it is about. About recognising people behind the labels. I know that transport in London has improved somewhat.. but I know that there's also a long way to go. I'm fully supportive of disabled rights, and thank you for sharing that with us on this thread.. and I wish you well..

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RE: BDSM activism- a step forward in the civil rights m... - 3/22/2009 4:58:32 AM   
eyesopened


Posts: 2798
Joined: 6/12/2006
From: Tampa, FL
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quote:

ORIGINAL: stella41b


quote:

ORIGINAL: eyesopened

I'm sorry but SMBD is so vague and I haven't any agreement from anyone on exactly what is right and what is wrong and what is acceptable and what is not acceptable. What rights exactly am I missing????


Agreed, BDSM is so vague, there is no agreement because there is no right and wrong acceptable or unacceptable. It is entirely individual.

You may not be missing them,. but we are talking about the rights to be yourself, live as you wish, form relationships with whoever, and engage in whatever activites yuo wish s a consenting adult in the privacy of your own home.

This is of course within the law and within societal norms. But what if they change and those freedoms you now enjoy are taken away from you or you have to break the law to continue them - what then?


I currently do have the right to be myself, live as I wish, form relationships with whever, and engage in whatever actvities I wish with a consenting adult in the privacy of my own home.

There is danger in playing "what if" and advocate for something that isn't a problem but maybe could be sometime in some vague distant future.

Let me tell you the story of Black's Beach.  When I moved to California in the late 70s it was a well known "clothing optional" beach.  It was not legally so but the County of San Diego knew how the propertly was being used and because the beach was technically inaccessible, they turned a blind eye and all was well with the world.  The beach was tecnically inaccessible because you had to climb down a 40 ft cliff or climb over an 1/8 mile of rocky shoreline to get to it.  But if you were willing to make the climb nude bathing was enjoyed for decades.

Then some people thought the cliff too dangerous and the County Officials should build stairs down to the beach and began a campaign for such.  It ended up on the ballot as a Proposition.  However, the Proposition wasn't shoud the beach get stairs but was worded as "should County maintained beaches be designated as clothing optional."  Obviously that didn't pass because no one wanted every single beach in San Diego County to be nude, just the one.  So the prop passed as NO and now Black's Beach is patrolled by County officials to ticket anyone who takes their clothes off.   Stairs were not built by the time I left California 14 years later and the freedom we once enjoyed had been taken away because someone wanted to be so damned proactive.

It may not sit well with some but "Don't ask don't tell" works perfectly well for me.

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(in reply to stella41b)
Profile   Post #: 19
RE: BDSM activism- a step forward in the civil rights m... - 3/22/2009 6:14:57 AM   
StrangerThan


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Joined: 4/25/2008
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I don't see it as a civil rights thing. There is a difference in whether one suffers legal and social issues because of who or what one is, rather than how they choose to live life. Being dominant or submissive isn't specific to living this lifestyle. Every individual on the face of the planet falls somewhere on the dom/sub graph. How dominant or submissive you are isn't measured by identifying your particular place on that graph and modifying your sexual and social practices accordingly. It doesn't come by capitalizing dominant, lower casing submissive, or engaging in a social environment where one side of the equation is always comfortable in black and leather and the other side shoots for corsets.

And the truth is, most can partake. Yes, there are laws on the books that could cause issue, but for the most part, they're not enforced unless the activity crosses other lines. Yes, there are laws that make it difficult to establish clubs or other social events. So are there for every activity where sex or nudity or even partial nudity might be involved. Now I know we can debate all day about activity that doesn't fall into sexual realms, but ya know, any time someone's ass is getting spanked, one or more in that equation usually feel some sort of sexual response.

I have no fear of the police raiding my home because I enjoy whipping my girl and making her do things we both need, enjoy and want. I think there are plenty of antiquated laws on the books that need to be expunged. But as a bottom line, I don't see it as an innate right to foster my sexuality nor the practice of it upon the public at large. And that's really what it boils down to me because most don't care if you're into BDSM or not. What most will care about falls along the lines of what most care about in personal/sexual things in the first place, and that's how public you want it to be and how insistent you are that others agree with it.

Shrug. The people I see persecuted are mostly those who expect everyone else to bend over backwards for them or who are just idiotic about it in the first place.

< Message edited by StrangerThan -- 3/22/2009 6:15:48 AM >


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(in reply to stella41b)
Profile   Post #: 20
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