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Dont be surprised! - 3/21/2009 6:41:14 PM   
VampiresLair


Posts: 1307
Joined: 9/3/2008
Status: offline 		It never ceases to amaze me when submissives I know and talk to wind up on the losing end of a test they had tried with their dominants and then they caterwaul about how unfair it was that they were punished or even worse dismissed for it.

If you are entering into a relationship with someone, one on the grounds that you are going to be a submissive and they are going to be the dominant... how is it that when you try and control a situation you cannot foresee it going badly? You are testing them, trying to see what they will do, and yet you are surprised and even upset when their reaction to your test is to punish you for doing it? WHAT did you expect? What was the test looking for?

If you were pushing to find their boundaries, then you succeeded in finding the, and learning the consequence for finding them. If you were pushing to see how far you could get before you got punished , then you succeeded and found out. If you were trying to see "how dominant they are" then you have your result, they are dominant enough not to appreciate your testing. The worst I have seen is when a submissive belittles her Master's interest in finding a third by telling him she doesnt think he is dominant enough to handle what he has, much less take on more.

Now, why, exactly, would you complain and bemoan the punishments you get when that was what you were trying for? If they didnt punish you, youd be disappointed that they failed your test and you wuld consider them less a dominant for it. But, its a lose lose situation they dont even know they are in. They do not try and change or punish and they arent "dominant enough." If they do, they arent understanding, or they are too strict or whatever.

When you ask for it, dont whine about what you get. I personally, do not appreciat tests. If you are with me as a submissive, I expect you to be in your place. I do not test to see how submissive you will be under any circumstances and I do not expect you will push to se how I react to any either. I found you becasue you were sub, I expect you to be sub. You should expect me to be domme, and learn the boundaries as we naturally get to them, not by forcing my hadn and seeing how I play my cards. You will wind up on the losing end, even more so if I found out thats what you were doing.

Just some thoughts after dealing with a friends and their relationship drama.




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RE: Dont be surprised! - 3/21/2009 7:38:48 PM   
DesFIP


Posts: 25191
Joined: 11/25/2007
From: Apple County NY
Status: offline 		True but there are so many people who just talk the talk, that sometimes we need to know if this dominant can walk it also. How do you know someone has boundaries unless you come up against them? Too many people, on both sides of the slash, say things but don't act accordingly.

However punishment should not be excessive. And many times, especially in the beginning of a relationship it isn't even needed. If he says not to have more than two cokes in a day, and she has three, she really doesn't need to be caned for an hour. All she may need, the first time, is being told to explain how it happened that she disobeyed, and frequently given help brainstorming a way not to forget the next time.

It takes a month of doing something every day to get a new habit down. So excessive punishment, and sometimes punishment at all, is not warranted when she may be trying but old habits of 30 or more years hold firm. Sometimes what is needed is help in learning and being given a learning curve.

And in the case of the comment about the third, it seems she proved herself correct. If he had dealt with her fears and needs so that she was secure enough then she wouldn't have challenged him. She wouldn't have needed to in order to be heard.

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RE: Dont be surprised! - 3/21/2009 7:51:11 PM   
VampiresLair


Posts: 1307
Joined: 9/3/2008
Status: offline 		If the punishment is excessive, yes, I can see a complaint. But, If you are told you cannot have more than 2 cokes in a day and you have three cokes once and are reminded of your rule, hen have three cokes again and are reminded and then the third day ina  row you have your third coke and then he tells you you may no longer drink coke without permission because you cannot follow rules... you have lost your right to whine.

The sub I referred to belittleing her Masters interests is a passive aggressive nightmare most of the time. He is more than capable of handling a poly household, and has done so before. However, since she is a brat and consistantly pushing him, he has decided to look for a third to train in hopes she will improve her efforts in order to stay his number one and not be demoted to number two.

I fully believe that sometimes people are full of it, and you might need proof. I grant you that. However, why whine about finaly getting puished if you had been pushing someone to see how long it wil take before you are? Breaking the rules one time and being punished might be excessive (depending on the rule.) Breaking it over and over just to see what will happen deserves it.

DV


_____________________________

Separately we are DiurnalVampire and DVsFox

10/18 Wedding date. 1 year and still blissfully happy

10/13/10 3 year anniversary of his becoming my Fox

Talk impolitely to me, baby - Thanks sunshinemiss



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RE: Dont be surprised! - 3/21/2009 7:55:30 PM   
WestBaySlave


Posts: 501
Joined: 9/24/2008
Status: offline 		  I would never test someone deliberately, but at the same time, if there's some trouble in the sense of something that either one of us is uncomfortable with - whether it's something between me and him or something from outside the relationship - and we manage to get over it, I find it strengthens my confidence in someone.

Now, that being said, subs who do things like pee on the carpet just so that their dom will punish them do seem a bit silly to me, unless that's the dynamic both are going for ( incontinent pet role-play, perhaps? )

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RE: Dont be surprised! - 3/21/2009 8:06:33 PM   
DavanKael


Posts: 3072
Joined: 10/6/2007
Status: offline 		I think it's a bit strange to set up an intentional test when the subtleties of everyday interaction are so very telling. 
  Davan

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RE: Dont be surprised! - 3/21/2009 8:21:10 PM   
BKSir


Posts: 4037
Joined: 4/8/2008
From: Salt Lake City, UT
Status: offline 		Ugh, I hate when they test.  Why do they do that?  I make it very clear not to, and that I'm quite happy spoiling and pampering my pets, but at the same time, if they misbehave or disobey, I will remove their joys one by one.  And then they whine because I turn off their access to the network / internet, because for many days in a row they sat there instead of tending their chores.  Or I use a zip tie to attach their phone charger to their shoe because of repeated discussion of "Please keep your phone charged and with you.".  The things I ask, I don't think are unreasonable, in fact, very minor usually.  I just hate having to do things like that because they don't seem to understand how much I hate repeating myself, especially on small and simple things.

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RE: Dont be surprised! - 3/21/2009 8:21:34 PM   
TaoWoman


Posts: 140
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From: Kpe'me', Togo
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quote:

ORIGINAL: WestBaySlave


...... the dynamic both are going for ( incontinent pet role-play, perhaps? )



Interesting fetish!



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RE: Dont be surprised! - 3/21/2009 8:45:15 PM   
YourhandMyAss


Posts: 5516
Joined: 6/25/2006
From: Sacramento
Status: offline 		Hehehe I wonder if I'd get away with this for Daddy, The one thing I wanted from him  for me to be ok with him being out with family all night was keep his phone charged and on him. And We agreed I wouldn't call unless it was an emergency or I got super lonley and needed a few phone kisses and it couldn't wait, and half the time he never heard it ring, or he let the phone die during the day and forgot to charge it.

I joked if he was  a sub and I the Dom, then there'd be some serious punishments for that and the leaving half full soda cans lying about.


Now people might say phsssssaw on that, the being ok with him being gone all night for hours on end, but we compromise, and he knows I hate him being gone all night, and it was such a small thing to do, to keep the phone working and handy.

quote:

ORIGINAL: BKSir
Or I use a zip tie to attach their phone charger to their shoe because of repeated discussion of "Please keep your phone charged and with you.".  The things I ask, I don't think are unreasonable, in fact, very minor usually.  I just hate having to do things like that because they don't seem to understand how much I hate repeating myself, especially on small and simple things.

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RE: Dont be surprised! - 3/21/2009 9:04:27 PM   
BKSir


Posts: 4037
Joined: 4/8/2008
From: Salt Lake City, UT
Status: offline 		YHMA:  Nah, I feel the same way.  I've been known to call my pet if I'm out, just to say hello, nothing wrong with that at all.  I know he worries about me too, so I do call in for that, just to say "Of course I'm fine, now go find yourself something to snack on, as I'll be getting home a little late, but will bring dinner with." or whatever.

Another big one though that really really irks me, is punctuality.  Okay, so you're going to be late, you HAVE a phone, and I do also.  I don't mind if you're going to be late... well, I do, but I mind it a whole hell of a lot less if you at least call and say "Hey, running late, I'll be about *howevermuch* longer."  He found out that was a good way to get on my bad side real fast.


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RE: Dont be surprised! - 3/21/2009 9:26:36 PM   
Jeptha


Posts: 780
Joined: 9/18/2008
From: Portland, Oregon
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DavanKael

I think it's a bit strange to set up an intentional test when the subtleties of everyday interaction are so very telling.
Davan
I would think so too. If you're getting involved with the person, it would seem that that part would become pretty clear without having to go to such lengths.

What the original post reminded me of is the idea that you sometimes hear that a woman should make a guy jealous.

I recall somebody that I thought I was interested in tried that (after reading some bad relationship-advice book or something), and while she did get a reaction, to me it just seemed like a demonstration of her thoughtlessness.

Perhaps if she could have been tasteful and subtle... I don't know. But I imagine the idea of "testing" someone's dominance could have a similarly adverse effect if done as hamheadedly.

< Message edited by Jeptha -- 3/21/2009 9:29:27 PM >

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RE: Dont be surprised! - 3/22/2009 12:53:57 AM   
MaamJay


Posts: 2101
Joined: 9/2/2005
Status: offline 		I agree DV, intentionally testing someone isn't on. And if you do it, then accept what you get, you asked for it. As a sub, i recall fairly early on in Our relationship i said something (can't recall the details) and Master looked at me and said "Are you testing Me pet?" i was so shocked, no no no! It was something i said i'd never do! But it gave Us a fresh chance to talk it over and clarify what each of Us might see as a test within the structure We had built for Ourselves. Meaning, We had talked about it before We got together 24/7, but this was a situation We'd not envisaged and He perceived it as a test. So I would say that it is something for ongoing discussion in a relationship, not just a once-off.

I wouldn't want a sub to try and test Me, certainly not to push My Dominance. However, I also make it clear I expect obedience though I am not unreasonable about changing the habits of a lifetime. As long as they are making honest and sincere attempts to change and clearly want to do so, I can handle it taking a while and would not think it a test, nor would I necessarily punish. For eg, i had a tendency to rock to and fro unconsciously when speaking to people. No idea how long i've done it, no one ever said anything. Master found it intensely annoying (makes Him feel seasick!) so He asked me to stop. Hard to stop something you don't realise you're doing! So it has taken a long program of Him reminding me when i start doing it. It's mostly gone now, only comes back when i am stressed or very excited about something. All He has to do is give me "that look" or raise a finger and i become aware and stop. If He'd thought that was a test or i was being deliberately naughty ... i'd have been gone long ago! But because i was sincerely trying to stop AND genuinely remorseful when i did it ... He handled it and it was no threat to His authority.

As a Domme, I make it very clear I do not want a brat and I've been there, done that with a passive-aggressive. No thanks! Come with an open heart and an attitude of obedience and wanting to find joy in serving and I will expend all My time and patience in training you kindly. Seems to Me DV, that your Dom friend hasn't made a very good choice with this "sub". Not sure His finding another would necessarily help the situation, I suspect it will just bring out the bitch in #1 all the more. In which case He'll eventually dismiss her ... and she'll have the vindication of saying "see i was right all along! He WAS looking to replace me!" without realising it's her actions that have brought that about! Sounds just like the ex hubby ...

Maam Jay aka violet[A]

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RE: Dont be surprised! - 3/22/2009 4:13:07 AM   
allthatjaz


Posts: 2878
Joined: 8/20/2008
Status: offline 		Stephen and me never test each other but then we don't need to as we know and understand each other well but early on, at the start of a relationship I believe its a natural thing to do, even if its only in the most subtle of ways.

There are far too many sheep in wolves clothing to just except that a man is dominant. The submissive needs to know that she really is submitting to someone who is capable of managing her and who is not going to fall at the first hurdle.
Submitting to someone one hardly knows is risky business. What submissive wants to do exactly what he asks, only to find out later that all he really wanted was a bit of kinky sex? A man that when push comes to shove can not command his sub. What submissive wants to hear, when she has done something slightly against his wishes, 'oh ok Ill let you off this time'? or 'you really don't have to do it if you don't want to'?
I know of a few deeply submissive friends on the scene that complain after a short relationship that it all turned out to be far too vanilla and they have been left feeling like a fool. Perhaps if they had tested these guys in the first place then even a short relationship wouldn't of evolved.

As a dominant woman I would expect small tests to begin with. I understand the submissive wants to feel safe, wants to understand that I am real and that I can come down on them like a ton of bricks if need be. I don't want them to do everything I say without question to begin with because I want to reiterate my dominance to them and I want them to be absolutely clear where they stand within my household.

This reminds me of a fem Domme club I go to in London where many men want to interact and foot worship a Mistress. The sensible ones stand back and people watch. They watch how the approaching submissive interacts with the woman and they watch her reaction when he oversteps the line and tries to do something stupid like stroke her thigh. What they are working out is, is she dominant, will she react or is she just wanting a shag from something young and fit.



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RE: Dont be surprised! - 3/22/2009 5:10:05 AM   
eyesopened


Posts: 2798
Joined: 6/12/2006
From: Tampa, FL
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: VampiresLair
he has decided to look for a third to train in hopes she will improve her efforts in order to stay his number one and not be demoted to number two. 


Wow.  I cannot imagine being asked to join an existing household to help the first submissive retain her status so I can remain number two OR to work hard to overthrow my sister's status and demote her.  Sound like he has enough drama as it is and he wants to fix that drama by creating more??? That sounds like putting out a fire with gasoline.  Way to handle a poly household!

On the other hand, I would never test my Master, that doesn't make any kind of logical sense to me whatsoever.

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RE: Dont be surprised! - 3/22/2009 5:39:10 AM   
CatdeMedici


Posts: 2257
Joined: 10/20/2008
Status: offline 		I don't do poly, quite frankly there is only room here for one ego--Mine. However, whether its poly, a house full of bio family or friends gathered for a vacation--- I can't abide game playing, I don't tolerate it from My adult UM I sure won't take it from someone who is supposed to be a "mate". There are more than a few out there who fell victim to the " She wouldn't dare" game----oh but She did!

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RE: Dont be surprised! - 3/22/2009 6:20:07 AM   
KatyLied


Posts: 13029
Joined: 2/24/2005
From: Pennsylvania
Status: offline
quote:

he has decided to look for a third to train in hopes she will improve her efforts in order to stay his number one and not be demoted to number two. 


Demoted to number two?  With that sort of behavior from him it sounds like she's the one who shouldn't be putting up with crap.


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RE: Dont be surprised! - 3/22/2009 6:46:18 AM   
cantilena


Posts: 224
Joined: 8/6/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: KatyLied

quote:

he has decided to look for a third to train in hopes she will improve her efforts in order to stay his number one and not be demoted to number two. 


Demoted to number two?  With that sort of behavior from him it sounds like she's the one who shouldn't be putting up with crap.



I agree with you here.  Perhaps there's much more to the story (likely!), or perhaps it wasn't written from a logical place but rather from an emotional one when upset on behalf of a friend.

I hate to admit I agree, actually, because I typically read DiurnalVampire as someone who makes complete and total sense.  Her Fox writes this way as well for me... I guess I just see life as they do most of the time.  In this case, though, I'm not getting why the two people are even together in the first place, let alone trying to manage potential "poly" with all these sorts of head games going on.

I guess I just feel bad for everyone involved.  I hope it sorts itself for the better of all in the long run.

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RE: Dont be surprised! - 3/22/2009 7:12:53 AM   
pinkwind


Posts: 367
Joined: 1/9/2005
Status: offline 		No, sorry, you don't change behaviours in someone by threatening their place in the relationship, that is just crass in the extreme.

If this Master cannot handle the slave he already has he should have the courage of his convictions and end things cleanly, rather than bring in someone else to frighten the poor thing into toeing the line.

Apart from anything else it is not exactly fair on the second slave, is it?



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RE: Dont be surprised! - 3/22/2009 8:36:05 AM   
DesFIP


Posts: 25191
Joined: 11/25/2007
From: Apple County NY
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: VampiresLair

If the punishment is excessive, yes, I can see a complaint. But, If you are told you cannot have more than 2 cokes in a day and you have three cokes once and are reminded of your rule, hen have three cokes again and are reminded and then the third day ina  row you have your third coke and then he tells you you may no longer drink coke without permission because you cannot follow rules... you have lost your right to whine.

The sub I referred to belittleing her Masters interests is a passive aggressive nightmare most of the time. He is more than capable of handling a poly household, and has done so before. However, since she is a brat and consistantly pushing him, he has decided to look for a third to train in hopes she will improve her efforts in order to stay his number one and not be demoted to number two.

I fully believe that sometimes people are full of it, and you might need proof. I grant you that. However, why whine about finaly getting puished if you had been pushing someone to see how long it wil take before you are? Breaking the rules one time and being punished might be excessive (depending on the rule.) Breaking it over and over just to see what will happen deserves it.

DV



What I was really thinking of was a dom who told his new sub she needed to use her seatbelt every time. But she was in the habit of never using it. So three weeks later when they got together, he punished her corporally which helped her remember for a couple of days before the old habit of not buckling took over. He was going to release her for disobedience but asked for advice. The suggestion was to make her write on a piece of cardboard "buckle up" and lean it against the steering wheel every time she got out of the car. He came back two weeks later and said she was now buckling up every time.

This wasn't deliberate disobedience. It was 30 years of driving around without using a seatbelt. And being punished once a month didn't do any good. Finding a positive way to remind her cured the bad habit.

Whether or not he can handle a poly relationship doesn't seem to be the question. It's obvious she can't. So why did he pick her? Since I don't believe she was overwhelmingly "oh yes, I've always dreamed of being one of a harem" from the get go. Why did he ignore her obvious disinterest or dislike of a poly idea and try to force her to go along with it?

But willful disobedience for no reason other than to piss someone off won't be cured by punishment. When that's what's happening, there has been a major breakdown of communication and a lot of resentment has been built up.

Anyway, I just see a lot of people who don't have any communication but instead think that punishment is a cure-all, which it isn't. In a good relationship punishment shouldn't be needed since the d wouldn't be asking things they knew the s couldn't do, and the s would feel safe talking about his/her feelings openly. Basically, I much prefer a win/win situation.

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RE: Dont be surprised! - 3/22/2009 8:45:31 AM   
NuevaVida


Posts: 6707
Joined: 8/5/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: VampiresLair
However, since she is a brat and consistantly pushing him, he has decided to look for a third to train in hopes she will improve her efforts in order to stay his number one and not be demoted to number two.



This is dangerous ground here.  I was once threatened with this.  I wasn't being a brat, but I was upset about something.  He didn't mean the threat, but I never forgot it and it became a gaping wound for the duration of our relationship. 


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RE: Dont be surprised! - 3/22/2009 9:35:51 AM   
Prinsexx


Posts: 4584
Joined: 8/27/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: VampiresLair

It never ceases to amaze me when submissives I know and talk to wind up on the losing end of a test they had tried with their dominants and then they caterwaul about how unfair it was that they were punished or even worse dismissed for it.

I'm amazed by your entire approach. If it never ceases to amaze you then why are you still a 'testy' dominant?

quote:


If you are entering into a relationship with someone, one on the grounds that you are going to be a submissive and they are going to be the dominant... how is it that when you try and control a situation you cannot foresee it going badly?

Because, believe it or not, we are human beings. Used perhaps, in this world that emphasizes independence, used perhaps by being in control in the world. Not used perhaps to dominants who expect 'control' for discrete periods of time known as scening or play time.

quote:


You are testing them, trying to see what they will do, and yet you are surprised and even upset when their reaction to your test is to punish you for doing it? WHAT did you expect? What was the test looking for?

There would be two main reasons for failing a test. The first, most obvious, would be failure to understand what the hell the test was about. Look up anything and everything you can about negative reinforcement on google. Punishment simply does not work if anyone fails at anything.
Secondly: willful disobedience. Either because the submissive is a masochist physical or masochist emotional (in which case even dismissal is fun). Or because the submissive absolutely doesn't understand what the hell they are being tested for. In which case this is a product of communication. We are each and everyone of us the result of out communication. If you are feeling hard done by as a result of your communication then the way you are testing is most likely at fault. After all you are the dominant.

quote:


If you were pushing to find their boundaries, then you succeeded in finding the, and learning the consequence for finding them. If you were pushing to see how far you could get before you got punished , then you succeeded and found out. If you were trying to see "how dominant they are" then you have your result, they are dominant enough not to appreciate your testing. The worst I have seen is when a submissive belittles her Master's interest in finding a third by telling him she doesnt think he is dominant enough to handle what he has, much less take on more.

Empathy and compassion will achieve almost anything you desire. Blaming the other will achieve nothing. It feels like, and forgive me I don't even know you, that you test for the sport. In which case welcome to the snarky biting back

quote:


Now, why, exactly, would you complain and bemoan the punishments you get when that was what you were trying for? If they didnt punish you, youd be disappointed that they failed your test and you wuld consider them less a dominant for it. But, its a lose lose situation they dont even know they are in.

No! Speaking personally I feel absolutely wretched if I fail a 'test'. But then again I always release myself and leave if I get the testy inexplicable mind fucks and start to feel Ii just can't 'win'... which means that if I genuinely feel that my submission is not going to be enough, I leave. That is because I submit fully and if it's not enough screw you.
I also know when I am NOT being punished and you know what? I respect it. NOT being punished is a form of being ignored, a removal of attention, like a minor dismissal. That's the worse and only effective form of reinforcement I understand from a D.

quote:


They do not try and change or punish and they arent "dominant enough." If they do, they arent understanding, or they are too strict or whatever.

Welcome to the world of doomed if you do, doomed if you don't Same on this side of the whip actually. Doomed if we are needy and adore, doomed and condemned as independent brats if we don't.

quote:


When you ask for it, dont whine about what you get.

You mean you allow a submissive to top you and then punish THEM.wtf?

quote:



I personally, do not appreciat tests.

So stop being a hypocrite and dishing ot out to others.? wtf?

quote:


If you are with me as a submissive, I expect you to be in your place. I do not test to see how submissive you will be under any circumstances .......

But you just ranted for a whole post about how you did. Or was it other dom types who set tests? Look you're losing me here.

quote:


and I do not expect you will push to se how I react to any either. I found you becasue you were sub, I expect you to be sub. You should expect me to be domme, ...


You expect a person to remain the same as they were when you 'found' them, before you knew them?


quote:


and learn the boundaries as we naturally get to them,

....mixed messaging. You are saying both please remain exactly the same as when I FIRST FOUND YOU but also you are allowing them time to change???


quote:


not by forcing my hadn and seeing how I play my cards. You will wind up on the losing end, even more so if I found out thats what you were doing.

Well this is one slave who would never want to end up on the losing end of anyone or anythng.

quote:
Just some thoughts after dealing with a friends and their relationship drama.


I agree. It takes a very special person to be able to help a friend out.
Edited to add: I'l wait for the testy backlash.
Simply an s-type trying to give you insight into the thinking of those you fail to understand


< Message edited by Prinsexx -- 3/22/2009 9:40:04 AM >

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To my stalker:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LN2lP_7J7GI&feature=fvwrel

(in reply to VampiresLair)
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