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How do you define submissive and slave? - 3/22/2009 2:15:46 AM   
LAgirlsub


Posts: 158
Joined: 3/16/2009
Status: offline 		The terms seem somewhat interchangeable, but I wonder if there are some agreed elements to each.

For example, as I read around the subject more I think I’m a sub more I’d see myself as a slave. How I’m defining this is that I don’t have an interest in necessarily being owned. Nor I think some activities such as some types of humiliation. Yet I want to please a Mistress and submit to her.

So I wonder what your definition of these two terms are (and let’s not even add the term 'bottom').

< Message edited by LAgirlsub -- 3/22/2009 2:18:07 AM >
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RE: How do you define submissive and slave? - 3/22/2009 2:39:40 AM   
GoddessTeaze


Posts: 1125
Joined: 10/14/2006
From: The Netherlands
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LAgirlsub

The terms seem somewhat interchangeable, but I wonder if there are some agreed elements to each.

For example, as I read around the subject more I think I’m a sub more I’d see myself as a slave. How I’m defining this is that I don’t have an interest in necessarily being owned. Nor I think some activities such as some types of humiliation. Yet I want to please a Mistress and submit to her.

So I wonder what your definition of these two terms are (and let’s not even add the term 'bottom').


Just as you've said now, this is who you're and how you feel, communication is the trick, not labeling, and putting people in cages to define them, it takes allot of communicating to understand what She wants, and what you want and Not want. That's the Key and nothing else.

I wish you enough.

GoddezzT`


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~*Beauty is not in the face; beauty is a light in the heart. ~Kahlil Gibran*~

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RE: How do you define submissive and slave? - 3/22/2009 5:03:20 AM   
beeble


Posts: 799
Joined: 5/25/2005
From: UK
Status: offline
quote:

LAgirlsub wrote:
The terms seem somewhat interchangeable, but I wonder if there are some agreed elements to each.

Even if there are agreed elements, so many people use the terms interchangeably that if you tell somebody, `I'm a sub' or `I'm a slave', you're going to have to explain what you mean by the term anyway.  So I wouldn't worry too much about it.

Personally, I identify as a submissive, though I also describe myself as owned.  To me, describing myself as a slave would imply that my desires and feelings are irrelevant, whereas they're not; they're just secondary to Kita's.  Overall, she gets what she wants, when she wants it; I get what I want, when she wants to give it to me.  The key, of course, is that we both want roughly the same things.

beeble.


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RE: How do you define submissive and slave? - 3/22/2009 6:11:50 AM   
FullfigRIMAAM1


Posts: 1160
Joined: 11/20/2008
Status: offline 		Like Beeble said, most people use the terms interchangeably.    My best slave (least disagreaable, most open/enthusiastic boy), has been a submissive, lol.   My slave, was a bit of an out of control, control freak.

I prefer slaves ideally, because while I am completely open to any and all ideas and opinions from a boy of mine, he always has to approach me in a certain way, and realize it is always my prerogative to take or leave his opinions or ideas.   Having said that, most people who slap slave labels on themselves, are not what I would consider slaves, given the amount of exceptions they take to seemingly mundane rules...   Needless to say, YMMV.   

A slave to me, is a person who writes a profile with his basic information, abilities, disabilities, period.    Obviously not all slaves are made for all dominants.    However, a slave who seeks my profile out, and writes to me with a multitude of his desires and exceptions, having no direct correlation with my profile/desires and exceptions, is a bottom at best, and dellusional, at worst.   I would have no intention of engaging in major negotiations beyond the initial point, unless he wants to rethink his ownership,with a slave.  

A submissive, I would pay closer attention to reading his profile and checking for compatibility, as I would not want to run into a lot of wals/power struggles.   I hope this has been helpful LAgirlsub.    M

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RE: How do you define submissive and slave? - 3/22/2009 8:44:24 AM   
Ph0enixF1re


Posts: 91
Joined: 5/11/2006
Status: offline 		Not a Mistress here, but here is my thought.....
People use the terms interchangeably because they are linguistically lazy, think one sounds sexier than the other, or don't agree that words actually mean something.  Each has some basic root (you can look it up) that carries a particular connotation.  Using one or the other is really a matter of choice to most here (not just on this board, but throughout the lifestyle) with little to no regard as to the confusion that results when someone is searching for a particular thing, thinks they have that thing, then finds out that the two definitions don't match.

It doesn't matter what you label yourself as, just make sure that you and the person you are talking to have a common definition, otherwise one or both of you is likely to be dissapointed.  I would start out as saying "I'm a sub" (by default) and if you eventually move (or are moved) into something further along the continuum of submission, you can redefine your role. 

You are never going to get consensus on what each one means, so figure out what YOU mean by the term, state it up front, then let the one you seek decide if it's what they are looking for.



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RE: How do you define submissive and slave? - 3/22/2009 9:02:22 AM   
littlesarbonn


Posts: 1710
Joined: 12/3/2005
From: Stockton, California
Status: offline 		I rarely even try to figure out the definitions of these because each person you run into has a different definition. There is no standard, and someone who waves a dictionary at me doesn't have the answers anymore than someone who is just making stuff up. I tend to focus on people. If they are saying the things that attract me, then I'm probably her type of submissive/slave. If she's saying things that repel me, then I'm not. I try not to worry about the nuances because quite often we allow the nuances to derail ourselves from actually finding what we're seeking.

The Internet has actually become a medium for destroying potential relationships, where people spend more time trying to psychoanalyze someone's words to figure out what they mean rather than just talk to them and see if things work out in a mutual, positive way.


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RE: How do you define submissive and slave? - 3/22/2009 10:04:41 AM   
keane


Posts: 18
Joined: 3/2/2009
Status: offline 		I have discussed this elsewhere.  The basics of what I get out of it is a sub had rights that are usually negotiated with the Dom/me.  A slave has no rights.  

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RE: How do you define submissive and slave? - 3/22/2009 11:14:15 AM   
ShaktiSama


Posts: 1674
Joined: 8/13/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LAgirlsub

The terms seem somewhat interchangeable, but I wonder if there are some agreed elements to each.



Honestly, I think there are a number of agreed elements of each--on the other hand, I also think people deliberately ignore the agreed elements of the terms when they find it personally convenient. For example, some of the differences between the words "submissive" and "slave" are similar to the differences between "boyfriend" and "husband": both indicate an intimate and probably exclusive relationship, but one implies a much deeper commitment and a more stable bond. Trying to horn in on an intimate relationship is always considered tacky, but crossing over the collar would normally be considered more serious. Nevertheless, women who profess a "leather" identity and say they believe in "protocol" still approach my partner, who is a collared slave, and try to poach him exactly as if he was single! The community standards for polite and decent conduct are thrown out the window when it suits them, and that includes the agreed-upon definitions of terms and the meaning of symbols, like the locked collar.

*shrug* In general, I would say that a "slave" is more committed to the BDSM relationship than a submissive and the term implies a deeper surrender of control and autonomy. The keystone element of the word "slave" is ownership--the slave does not belong to himself/herself, but is the possession of another, to be used as the owner sees fit.

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"Women and cats will do as they please, and men and dogs should relax and get used to the idea."
-- Robert A. Heinlein

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RE: How do you define submissive and slave? - 3/22/2009 4:02:07 PM   
lilsubrt


Posts: 41
Joined: 5/17/2008
Status: offline 		ShaktiSama wrote:

*shrug* In general, I would say that a "slave" is more committed to the BDSM relationship than a submissive and the term implies a deeper surrender of control and autonomy. The keystone element of the word "slave" is ownership--the slave does not belong to himself/herself, but is the possession of another, to be used as the owner sees fit.

You do Seem to be the Queen of the Almighty Council of Femdoms after all. This one started out as a sub, then through time and the Careful Cultivation of Trust by his Goddess became Her slave. So Your Words Ring Very True here.

In Essence, as seen by this little one, the key part of the definition of the term slave Is Ownership and with that the Surrender of it's rights. Plain, Simple, and Easy, he Hopes, LOL.

Hope All Are Well,

lilsubrt ( wondering if he should change that now ???? )


< Message edited by lilsubrt -- 3/22/2009 4:04:44 PM >

(in reply to ShaktiSama)
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RE: How do you define submissive and slave? - 3/22/2009 4:26:10 PM   
ShaktiSama


Posts: 1674
Joined: 8/13/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: lilsubrt
You do Seem to be the Queen of the Almighty Council of Femdoms after all.


*nearly snorts Diet Pepsi out her nose!*  I'm Queen of Femdomania like Marie Antoinette was Queen of France--every time I say something stupid, my head rolls.

_____________________________

"Women and cats will do as they please, and men and dogs should relax and get used to the idea."
-- Robert A. Heinlein

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RE: How do you define submissive and slave? - 3/22/2009 5:30:34 PM   
Politesub53


Posts: 14862
Joined: 5/7/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: FullfigRIMAAM1


I prefer slaves ideally, because while I am completely open to any and all ideas and opinions from a boy of mine, he always has to approach me in a certain way, and realize it is always my prerogative to take or leave his opinions or ideas.  


Hi Ma`am. Your comment is interesting, since i consider myself a submissive yet fully agree with what you say. Maybe I just have a problem thinking of myself as a slave, for some odd reason, or at least using that label.

(in reply to FullfigRIMAAM1)
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RE: How do you define submissive and slave? - 3/22/2009 7:41:38 PM   
FullfigRIMAAM1


Posts: 1160
Joined: 11/20/2008
Status: offline 		My opinion is that a slave is a submissive (at all times), but a submissive, though not a slave, has the potential given a high level of compatibility, and chemistry...
I pointed out in my post, that it's important for me to have input from my slave, because I would hope said slave was a complete and competent person before he met me.  

That I rule, and may always overrule him, is the only negotiable part between a submissive and slave to me.   Having said that, I am much less hard core in terms of treatment of one who would be my slave.   It is perfectly within another dominant's rights for example, to decide to restrict her slaves speech, expression of opinions, the location he would sleep (floor/cage), etc.   The reason calling self a slave  can be problematic, is that each dominant defines slavery to her specifications/desires.    A slave, would have to be versatile enough to agree to any definition, or be very careful to choose a domina who defines it as he does.   M

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The place to improve the world is first in one's own heart and head and hands.-Robert M. Persig

Love is the only sane and satisfactory answer to the problem of human existence Erich Fromm

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RE: How do you define submissive and slave? - 3/22/2009 8:16:04 PM   
MissJanice2


Posts: 178
Joined: 3/4/2009
Status: offline 		I define a sub as being someone who is controlled by a Dom/me and has their own life and friends.   A slave on the other hand, is much more deeper commitment.  The slave is owned property, and that is the adjective that separates the sub from the slave.
 
Best Wishes,

MJ



quote:

ORIGINAL: LAgirlsub

The terms seem somewhat interchangeable, but I wonder if there are some agreed elements to each.

For example, as I read around the subject more I think I’m a sub more I’d see myself as a slave. How I’m defining this is that I don’t have an interest in necessarily being owned. Nor I think some activities such as some types of humiliation. Yet I want to please a Mistress and submit to her.

So I wonder what your definition of these two terms are (and let’s not even add the term 'bottom').

(in reply to LAgirlsub)
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RE: How do you define submissive and slave? - 3/23/2009 2:42:45 AM   
LAgirlsub


Posts: 158
Joined: 3/16/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: littlesarbonn

The Internet has actually become a medium for destroying potential relationships, where people spend more time trying to psychoanalyze someone's words to figure out what they mean rather than just talk to them and see if things work out in a mutual, positive way.



littlesarbon, I don't know if I'd agree that the Internet destroys potential relationships...I think that would be us humans. Yes we can analyze the words and what we think the intent of the words might be (hence my asking about expectations regarding sub vs slave) yet I hope talking - even writing - and being open/honest would lead to better potential relationships if when meeting in person we have the chemistry we hoped we would.

I was hoping to discover what might be a generally accepted difference and I suppose everyone gave me a bit more clarification...ownership. That's a slave. At least that much I think there's a consensus on. Even if some people don't respect the collar, it seems to be clear that's a sign of ownership to a particular Mistress.

For myself, I think I'm on the right track so far...I'm a sub at this point. I'd be open to wearing some kind of jewelry like a bracelet if I felt that connected to a Mistress as a symbol of collaring.

To the Mistresses - if you had a sub that you wanted to collar but she didn't like wearing anything around her neck, would you accept an alterative? It's about my symbolism more then the actual article isn't it?

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RE: How do you define submissive and slave? - 3/23/2009 3:08:28 AM   
stella41b


Posts: 4258
Joined: 10/16/2007
From: SW London (UK)
Status: offline 		On account of more experience in play, slaves tend to have fewer teeth.

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RE: How do you define submissive and slave? - 3/23/2009 8:28:12 AM   
IndigoMystry


Posts: 34
Joined: 3/20/2009
Status: offline 		I thought it was  "a slave" is owned and "submissive" was a personality trait or psychological need acted out.

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RE: How do you define submissive and slave? - 3/23/2009 11:02:00 AM   
RedMagic1


Posts: 6470
Joined: 5/10/2007
Status: offline 		And yet someone unowned can select the role "slave" on a CollarMe profile.  (Many people have posted this should not be an option, for the reason you gave, IndigoMystry, but oh well.)

When I had a profile on Alt, I always selected "Role: Not Applicable," because I wanted people to have to ask me how I saw myself relating to a relationship, or to a scene.  If CollarMe had a designation of "Whacked," I'd choose that in a red hot minute, instead of "Dominant."  I want human beings to deal with me as I am, with as few preconceptions as possible.  (It's a shortcut to mythbusting.)

Ultimately, OP, you are dealing with a person, not a role, whether you are talking to a potential partner, some random Joe at the local dungeon, or a random Jane who asks you what time it is on the street.  You need to find out what they mean by those words, if you want to use them in sentences.  Otherwise you'll both be speaking English, and yet not communicating.


_____________________________

Not with envy, not with a twisted heart, shall you feel superior, or go about boasting. Rather in goodness by action make true your song and your word. Thus you shall be highly regarded, and able to live in peace with all others.
- 15th century Aztec

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RE: How do you define submissive and slave? - 3/23/2009 11:20:32 AM   
subtlebutterfly


Posts: 2230
Joined: 6/15/2008
From: Not your hood
Status: offline 		I guess one could say that the definition is in the mouth of the beholder.

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RE: How do you define submissive and slave? - 3/23/2009 2:36:40 PM   
FullfigRIMAAM1


Posts: 1160
Joined: 11/20/2008
Status: offline 		The books I've read, and for my own purposes, because let us face it, I am the dominant for a reason...    These are the fenitions I generally agree with, and a thread that had a lot of discussion about definitions, with people who love and those that hate labels.    M
quote:

http://www.collarchat.com/m_604021/mpage_1/tm.htm  
twicehappy
Submissive; one who yields power or control to the dominant on a limited basis both during day to day life and during scening or playing. Or one whose nature is submissive, one may be a submissive whether or not they currently are submitting to a dominant, it is what they naturally are.
 
Slave; one who yields control of all aspects of their existence to the dominant within the limits agreed upon prior to being collared (these are generally agreed upon moral limits, not to be confused with" I get it my way or I leave or Sam type behaviors). One who is considered to be owned by another as their sole property. One whose submission to their owner/s is total, 24 hours a day, 7 days a week in and out of any scenes or play.


_____________________________

The place to improve the world is first in one's own heart and head and hands.-Robert M. Persig

Love is the only sane and satisfactory answer to the problem of human existence Erich Fromm

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RE: How do you define submissive and slave? - 3/24/2009 1:19:39 AM   
LAgirlsub


Posts: 158
Joined: 3/16/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: stella41b

On account of more experience in play, slaves tend to have fewer teeth.


I know you're kidding, but I find that really disturbing.

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