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RE: The Dreaded Topping From The Bottom - 3/23/2009 2:40:30 AM   
Focus50


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From: Newcastle, Australia
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quote:

ORIGINAL: cantilena

quote:

ORIGINAL: littlewonder

There's no such thing.

If you're topping from the bottom then the Dom/me is allowing it.



Are you saying that if it works for the couple, then it's not topping from the bottom at all? 

I'm not sure I agree.  I'll have to think about that one... :)

I agree with littlewonder, except that the term where the "Dom/me is allowing it" is open to confusion.  I don't think the Dom/me is allowing it (by way of permission, for eg) so much as *enabling* it through passive indifference.  And that seems to be something of a common denominator for too many threads where tptb has become a relationship issue.  IE, that the Dom/me's contribution seems to extend only so far as accepting and expecting the sub's submission and service rather than proactively dominating in his/her own right.
 
And in a control based relationship (such as D/s), someone needs to be in charge.  Ideally that someone is the Dom/me but when it's not happening, the sub inevitably becomes bratty through frustration etc and is then usually (wrongfully) accused of the heinous crime of tftb....  To me, it's totally the Dom/me's fault; there is NO Power Exchange when the Dom/me is passively accepting the fruits of the other's submission. 
 
Habitating ain't dominating; it's the Dom/me who's expected to lead and take charge etc and when that's the case, there's no such thing as tftb, so much as the sub occasionally being playfully bratty.
 
I recall a a local vet show where doctor Harry made the observation of cats that if you don't own your cat, your cat takes over owning you.  Pets and subs; they need to know who's boss...!
 
Focus.

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(in reply to cantilena)
Profile   Post #: 21
RE: The Dreaded Topping From The Bottom - 3/23/2009 6:02:19 AM   
DesFIP


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Nairod

quote:

ORIGINAL: StrongSpirit

A true sub needs NO pain at all.  If the pain is necessary they are a masochist, not a sub.




Wise comments. Off topic, which probably pisses cantilena off, but wise nonetheless.


Not true. For many people the needs are intertwined and one feeds the other. Just because it isn't that way for you, doesn't mean it isn't that way for everyone.

BTW sniping at cantilena like this makes you appear very disfavorably. Not bright if you plan to post more or are seeking.

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RE: The Dreaded Topping From The Bottom - 3/23/2009 6:30:23 AM   
cantilena


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Joined: 8/6/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LovingMistress45
Personally I think this whole topping from the bottom thing is just a way for the dominant to say they are unhappy or for someone to judge another's relationship in terms of what they want in a relationship.  There is so much variety in how people express dominance or submission and I think sometime we spend too much time trying to decide if something makes someone dominant or submissive.  What matters is if it works for the 2 or more involved in the relationship.  Not everyone wants a M/s relationship, not everyone is into S&M play, and not everyone wants 24/7.

100% agreed.  Thanks for putting this in a way that brought a lot of clarity to the topic for me in my own mind in a way I wouldn't have thought of.

quote:

ORIGINAL: LovingMistress45
I am in agreement with littlewonder - there is no such thing.  I can only be topped if I allow it.  A submissive or for that matter any person can not control me unless I allow it (I am not including crimes of violence here).  I always have a choice in how I respond.  Now what you might have is a submissive (bottom, masochist) that does not meet your needs as a dominant.

Yes, and here is why I was asking for clarification from littlewonder on her take on tftb.  I've thought a bit now about this concept of 'no such thing' and have come to agree in this context.  I'd even go further and say that indeed if the behaviors in question *are* working for the couple - i.e. the dominant person is allowing it - then for them it isn't necessarily topping from the bottom.  As I've turned it over in my mind, I'm starting to think that whatever the behavior is - if there's no conflict - it's simply something that works for them.

Or as littlewonder later said in the thread - the dom is in effect still in control, because of that allowance.

I understand (I hope!!) better now.
quote:

ORIGINAL: LovingMistress45
I also think at times what is a submissive adjusting to a new relationship, coming to terms with the conflict between their internal desires and the external conflicts, learning and growing is seen as topping from the bottom - I don't agree.

I also don't see asking for the "why" behind something  or asking for what you want as topping from the bottom.

Totally agreed.

quote:

ORIGINAL: LovingMistress45
Now "I will be submissive to you if you do xyz to/for me" is an attempt to top from the bottom, but it is only successful if I allow it to be.

Would you say that the above quid-pro-quo doesn't equate to submission, though?  Even if allowed by the top?  What I mean is that, to me, I'm thinking an offer of sub to xyz in exchange for explicit abs sounds more like a top/bottom arrangement.  Which is absolutely okay in my mind, and can work for lots of people.  But maybe it's not submission.  (Hope I don't get in trouble for that last bit... still working through this part in my mind.)

Thanks so much. This helped a lot.

(in reply to LovingMistress45)
Profile   Post #: 23
RE: The Dreaded Topping From The Bottom - 3/23/2009 6:33:02 AM   
cantilena


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quote:

ORIGINAL: littlewonder
...

I said that if you're topping the Dom/me is allowing it and thus he/she still holds the power.


I think I understand what you're saying better now. 

(in reply to littlewonder)
Profile   Post #: 24
RE: The Dreaded Topping From The Bottom - 3/23/2009 6:38:16 AM   
cantilena


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesFIP

When the top feels that they aren't in control, they blame the bottom for the dreaded tftb. I can say to him "don't stop spanking me, ooh it feels so good, ouch" and he can choose to do more or to say "time to go make dinner". It isn't tftb because I can't make him do anything.

It's just information as to where I am and what I want. But if he wants me to be thinking about my delivery, then I'm not going to want any of it or be able to tolerate much at all. Because stuff can come out naturally or I can mind my words, but not both at once.

There are a lot of insecure tops who feel that the bottom asking for anything at all means she's trying to take control. I'm not compatible with them. The Man justs lifts an eyebrow and starts laughing, he knows who is in charge.


Let's say that in the first scenario - i.e. she is saying 'please don't stop' and he might be thinking 'time to go make dinner' - he carries on for her anyway.  I still wouldn't call that tftb because it's still a request for them.  It may be an indulgence, though... I think that's totally okay.  You're right... he still allows it.  Still comes from him.

Regardless, she may indeed be attempting to guide the experience 'from the bottom'... but whoop-ti-do.  Right?

That's how I'm thinking about it.

Maybe you're correct. Some dominants may not like the attempt at guiding the experience, though.  That realization is an ah-ha moment for me.  (Maybe I'm slow! lol)

(in reply to DesFIP)
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RE: The Dreaded Topping From The Bottom - 3/23/2009 6:46:03 AM   
cantilena


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quote:

ORIGINAL: zero69u2
Its directing... sometimes its very subtle manipulation to get one's way..

For the sake of simple discussion, is that a bad thing?  If both people are happy with the situation, and everyone's needs are met, would you still say that's not appropriate behavior?

quote:

ORIGINAL: zero69u2
Well  my old master/mistress used to do this or that.. and i want this or that..  (if the top does'nt nip it.. Stop comparing me to your old mistress...) this will continue until you either become their old mistress or you stop the comparisons..

I'll go out on a limb and just say that anyone comparing a current lover negatively to a former lover, regardless of role, is just simply insensitive, period.  Now, asking for what the former person did that may have made your toes curl... that isn't such a big deal in my mind if the comparisons are left silent.  To me, that just goes back to the sub requesting something from the dominant that he or she wants to experience.

quote:

ORIGINAL: zero69u2
It happens alot when the experience of 2 people vary a great deal.. If submissive A is extremely experienced and Dom B is fairly new.. he may actually need to be topped from the bottom as a way of learning
eventually he/she will get control back and allowing it can be good and bad..

Absolutely.  I'll admit to having been there, done that.  









(in reply to zero69u2)
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RE: The Dreaded Topping From The Bottom - 3/23/2009 6:51:20 AM   
cantilena


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quote:

ORIGINAL: peppermint

Topping from the bottom to me means that the bottom is in charge...or trying to be in charge of what is happening.

If the bottom is the Dominant, then all is perfectly fine.

If the bottom is the submissive, then the submissive is being a brat. 



I was getting the feeling that a lot of doms feel that this behavior of tftb goes beyond obvious bratting. But I totally agree with you.  In my own relationship, anyway, bratting is a never-do.  It took us long enough to get to where we are for me to even think about pulling it.

Having to ask him for a scene, if you will, is nowhere near as exciting, that is true.  But it is far more peaceful.

(in reply to peppermint)
Profile   Post #: 27
RE: The Dreaded Topping From The Bottom - 3/23/2009 6:54:41 AM   
cantilena


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Joined: 8/6/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Focus50
I agree with littlewonder, except that the term where the "Dom/me is allowing it" is open to confusion.  I don't think the Dom/me is allowing it (by way of permission, for eg) so much as *enabling* it through passive indifference.  And that seems to be something of a common denominator for too many threads where tptb has become a relationship issue.  IE, that the Dom/me's contribution seems to extend only so far as accepting and expecting the sub's submission and service rather than proactively dominating in his/her own right.
 
And in a control based relationship (such as D/s), someone needs to be in charge.  Ideally that someone is the Dom/me but when it's not happening, the sub inevitably becomes bratty through frustration etc and is then usually (wrongfully) accused of the heinous crime of tftb....  To me, it's totally the Dom/me's fault; there is NO Power Exchange when the Dom/me is passively accepting the fruits of the other's submission. 
 
Habitating ain't dominating; it's the Dom/me who's expected to lead and take charge etc and when that's the case, there's no such thing as tftb, so much as the sub occasionally being playfully bratty.
 
I recall a a local vet show where doctor Harry made the observation of cats that if you don't own your cat, your cat takes over owning you.  Pets and subs; they need to know who's boss...!
 
Focus.


Thank you very much for this.  It added a lot of clarity to this for me.

(in reply to Focus50)
Profile   Post #: 28
RE: The Dreaded Topping From The Bottom - 3/23/2009 7:10:06 AM   
DomM&SubK


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesFIP

When the top feels that they aren't in control, they blame the bottom for the dreaded tftb. I can say to him "don't stop spanking me, ooh it feels so good, ouch" and he can choose to do more or to say "time to go make dinner". It isn't tftb because I can't make him do anything.

It's just information as to where I am and what I want. But if he wants me to be thinking about my delivery, then I'm not going to want any of it or be able to tolerate much at all. Because stuff can come out naturally or I can mind my words, but not both at once.

There are a lot of insecure tops who feel that the bottom asking for anything at all means she's trying to take control. I'm not compatible with them. The Man justs lifts an eyebrow and starts laughing, he knows who is in charge.


I agree whole heartily with this statement. Just this weekend I had a coffee chat with another D/s Couple and the Dom said that to him a “Door Mat” sub is for a Lazy Dom

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(in reply to DesFIP)
Profile   Post #: 29
RE: The Dreaded Topping From The Bottom - 3/23/2009 9:04:17 AM   
LovingMistress45


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LovingMistress45
Now "I will be submissive to you if you do xyz to/for me" is an attempt to top from the bottom, but it is only successful if I allow it to be.

Would you say that the above quid-pro-quo doesn't equate to submission, though?  Even if allowed by the top?  What I mean is that, to me, I'm thinking an offer of sub to xyz in exchange for explicit abs sounds more like a top/bottom arrangement.  Which is absolutely okay in my mind, and can work for lots of people.  But maybe it's not submission.  (Hope I don't get in trouble for that last bit... still working through this part in my mind.)

Thanks so much. This helped a lot.



At its best I would call the exchange I described as a Top/bottom agreement.  For myself I want a M/s relationship so that won't work for me.  Now for just a casual play scene I am quite open to the above, as in that I am not that person's Mistress - I am topping him/her and certainly they have a right to express what they want in exchange for bottoming for me.  If you have agreed to be My sub/slave then there is not a condition on your submission to me. The choices are we will work through the issue and come to an understanding (i.e. you don't get to put conditions on your submission, except for the hard limits we agreed to) or we go our seperate ways. The former is always my preference as I don't view relationships/people as disposible things and I do care a lot about the needs/wants/desires/happiness of anyone with me.

(in reply to cantilena)
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RE: The Dreaded Topping From The Bottom - 3/23/2009 8:27:55 PM   
DavanKael


Posts: 3072
Joined: 10/6/2007
Status: offline 		I think that topping from the bottom is a manipulation that is evidence of some issue or schism in the dynamics of the relationship and the parties involved each have parts in it. 
  Davan

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(in reply to peppermint)
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RE: The Dreaded Topping From The Bottom - 3/24/2009 3:13:26 AM   
Focus50


Posts: 3962
Joined: 12/28/2004
From: Newcastle, Australia
Status: offline 		Just an observation not meant at or to anyone in particular....
 
It seems some interpret tftb as a sub attempting to wrest control of the relationship, almost as though there's a conspiracy or mutiny afoot.  I've always felt that when a sub acts out through tftb, it isn't that they're trying to take control at all; it's from the fear that they already have it...!  And much like a recent injury, they feel compelled to pick at it.
 
In all my years, I've seen nothing to change my mind about tftb.  That when the sub is being an incorrigible brat, my first thought goes to their dom/me being "asleep at the wheel"....
 
Focus.

_____________________________

Never underestimate the persuasive power of stupid people in large groups. <unknown>

Your food is for eating, not torturing. <my mum> (Errm, when I was a kid)

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Profile   Post #: 32
RE: The Dreaded Topping From The Bottom - 3/24/2009 6:50:24 AM   
cantilena


Posts: 224
Joined: 8/6/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LovingMistress45


quote:

ORIGINAL: LovingMistress45
Now "I will be submissive to you if you do xyz to/for me" is an attempt to top from the bottom, but it is only successful if I allow it to be.

quote:

ORIGINAL: cantilena
Would you say that the above quid-pro-quo doesn't equate to submission, though?

quote:

ORIGINAL: LovingMistress45
At its best I would call the exchange I described as a Top/bottom agreement.  For myself I want a M/s relationship so that won't work for me.  Now for just a casual play scene I am quite open to the above, as in that I am not that person's Mistress - I am topping him/her and certainly they have a right to express what they want in exchange for bottoming for me.  If you have agreed to be My sub/slave then there is not a condition on your submission to me. The choices are we will work through the issue and come to an understanding (i.e. you don't get to put conditions on your submission, except for the hard limits we agreed to) or we go our seperate ways. The former is always my preference as I don't view relationships/people as disposible things and I do care a lot about the needs/wants/desires/happiness of anyone with me.


I agree.  Thanks for clarifying for me. :)

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RE: The Dreaded Topping From The Bottom - 3/24/2009 6:59:32 AM   
cantilena


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Joined: 8/6/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomM&SubK

...

Just this weekend I had a coffee chat with another D/s Couple and the Dom said that to him a “Door Mat” sub is for a Lazy Dom


I'm not sure I agree with the dominant you were talking with.  I tend to think that very submissive, meek subs can strongly appeal to a lot of doms and that doesn't necessarily make those doms weak or lazy.  It's just preference, like all the rest of this.  In fact, I'd submit as devil's advocate that such relationships may even require more work from the dom because he or she is doing almost all the emotional, decision-processing, or intellectual heavy lifting required to keep life moving forward.

I'm thinking successful relationships can be had either way, but I'm interested in your own viewpoint and your reactions to his statement when he said it.  Maybe there's a piece there that I haven't thought about.

(in reply to DomM&SubK)
Profile   Post #: 34
RE: The Dreaded Topping From The Bottom - 3/24/2009 7:05:13 AM   
cantilena


Posts: 224
Joined: 8/6/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Focus50

Just an observation not meant at or to anyone in particular....
 
It seems some interpret tftb as a sub attempting to wrest control of the relationship, almost as though there's a conspiracy or mutiny afoot.  I've always felt that when a sub acts out through tftb, it isn't that they're trying to take control at all; it's from the fear that they already have it...!  And much like a recent injury, they feel compelled to pick at it.
 
In all my years, I've seen nothing to change my mind about tftb.  That when the sub is being an incorrigible brat, my first thought goes to their dom/me being "asleep at the wheel"....
 
Focus.


For me, this is exactly what got me confused in the first place and hence the thread. It seemed to me that folks sometimes interpret tftb as being evidence of closet dominant self-reality.  After reading through the responses here, I can infer that some do feel that way, but also that many do not.

(in reply to Focus50)
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RE: The Dreaded Topping From The Bottom - 3/24/2009 7:10:15 AM   
RedMagic1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Focus50
I've always felt that when a sub acts out through tftb, it isn't that they're trying to take control at all; it's from the fear that they already have it...! 

I agree, and would like to point out that this extends well beyond the sphere of D/s.  Children with lax parents, and military units with crappy commanders, exhibit similar behavior.


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RE: The Dreaded Topping From The Bottom - 3/24/2009 7:12:23 AM   
cantilena


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DavanKael

I think that topping from the bottom is a manipulation that is evidence of some issue or schism in the dynamics of the relationship and the parties involved each have parts in it. 
Davan


What behaviors or dynamics do you see as topping from the bottom?  "Bratting"?  Others?

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RE: The Dreaded Topping From The Bottom - 3/24/2009 7:14:23 AM   
LaTigresse


Posts: 26123
Joined: 1/15/2006
Status: offline 		It all goes along with the concept of teaching others how to treat us. Allowing people to treat us badly. Etc.

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Just because you are well educated, articulate, and can use big, fancy words, properly........does not mean you are right!

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RE: The Dreaded Topping From The Bottom - 3/24/2009 12:32:54 PM   
agirl


Posts: 4530
Joined: 6/14/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Focus50

Just an observation not meant at or to anyone in particular....
 
It seems some interpret tftb as a sub attempting to wrest control of the relationship, almost as though there's a conspiracy or mutiny afoot.  I've always felt that when a sub acts out through tftb, it isn't that they're trying to take control at all; it's from the fear that they already have it...!  And much like a recent injury, they feel compelled to pick at it.
 
In all my years, I've seen nothing to change my mind about tftb.  That when the sub is being an incorrigible brat, my first thought goes to their dom/me being "asleep at the wheel"....
 
Focus.


This seems fair to me. If I didn't want his control and authority I wouldn't have agreed to NOT have it.  There most certainly have been moments when his eye has left the ball and I KNEW in a heartbeat.

It doesn't take much longer than a *heartbeat and a half *for him to notice that HIMSELF. I'm very uncomfortable when I know that there's the slightest glitch in the normal running of things. I don't set out to undermine what I asked for, but I know jolly well when it's not there.

agirl



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Profile   Post #: 39
RE: The Dreaded Topping From The Bottom - 3/24/2009 10:09:28 PM   
Andalusite


Posts: 2492
Joined: 1/25/2009
Status: offline 		I think that topping from the bottom is thwacking someone the way they tell you to, and bottoming from the top is telling them how to thwack you. There's nothing wrong with either, as long as both people agree to it, but being manipulative is always a bad idea. I think a lot of people are so afraid of being perceived as topping from the bottom that they don't communicate with their partner.

(in reply to agirl)
Profile   Post #: 40
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