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Failure and the Use of Safewords - 3/24/2009 3:00:12 PM

HeavansKeeper

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My pet is dreadfully afraid of failing me. She has no reason to be, I've always been extremely accepting and patient with any of her shortcomings. It's from her life before me, and something we work hard to correct.

She has promised me, assured me, sworn to me that she will use her safeword if needed. I also know she would feel like a failure if she did use it. I've told her repeatedly how its not a bad thing at all, how its not a failure on her part (if anything, a failure on my part). I know she'd still feel like she failed, which is crazy and irrational.

In our house, we've never needed to use our safeword. I don't plan to push it until she needs to, that would be unhealthy. I just have to trust that this apparent discrepancy makes sense in her twisted slavegirl puppy mind.

It makes me uncomfortable not knowing if the emergency brakes work or not on my elevator.

Anyone else have/had a similar situation?

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... You've waited your whole life for this moment...

Post #: 1

RE: Failure and the Use of Safewords - 3/24/2009 3:47:24 PM

LeatherBentOne

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Do you know her limits? Do you negotiate when introducing something new? Do you check in with her during play to get a feel for how things are going?

Ive found these useful, including watching her breathing and looking for muscle tension that could signal she's had enough. Also, her coloring in any paticular area including her face.

Hope this is of some help to you.

(in reply to HeavansKeeper)

Post #: 2

RE: Failure and the Use of Safewords - 3/24/2009 3:51:27 PM

simpleplan2

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Joined: 7/5/2008
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Sorry, but I just don't understand that mindset. If she tires her best to do whatever you've asked and, for whatever reason, she cannot, I don't understand how she's failed (I'm not saying that you make her feel that way, although you did use the word "shortcomings"). I think it's a bit crazy and irrational myself.

(in reply to HeavansKeeper)

Post #: 3

RE: Failure and the Use of Safewords - 3/24/2009 3:56:57 PM

catize

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Joined: 3/7/2006
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The dominant needs to be able to trust me, just as I need to trust him. He needs to rely on my truthful input; that I will let him know before I am harmed. That’s how it was explained to me and it made sense!

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Robert Parker, Stranger in Paradise

(in reply to HeavansKeeper)

Post #: 4

RE: Failure and the Use of Safewords - 3/24/2009 5:02:30 PM

DesFIP

Posts: 25191
Joined: 11/25/2007
From: Apple County NY
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I can tell him if I have a cramp. But if he hits an emotional trigger, I can't.

You're going to have to elicit the feedback you need as opposed to expecting her to offer it up voluntarily.
Something as simply as asking her to rate how tough it is on a one to ten scale. Or asking if she can take more. Or if she's still in green or has hit yellow yet.

If you're asking for the information, then telling you isn't failing. And then you can aim to stay about a 7 which is difficult but tolerable. And tell her how pleased you are that she told you she was an 8, that she is giving you the feedback you need.

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(in reply to catize)

Post #: 5

RE: Failure and the Use of Safewords - 3/24/2009 5:21:28 PM

antipode

Posts: 1787
Joined: 4/19/2004
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quote:

It makes me uncomfortable not knowing if the emergency brakes work or not on my elevator.

Like it or not, you're going to have to do what I do when winter arrives - I take my cars out into the wet or snow, and test the antilock brakes. The vast majority of drivers don't use them when they need to, because they have not trained themselves to - it is very hard to change one's "emergency behaviour" without training. I do believe it is no different with the safeword, or with calling 911. It should be part of your and your pet's training, not just theoretical. Some pets won't use a safeword, when they should, and that is important to know, too.

(in reply to HeavansKeeper)

Post #: 6

RE: Failure and the Use of Safewords - 3/24/2009 8:52:45 PM

MasterRaid

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From: The Brink of insanity.
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quote:

ORIGINAL: HeavansKeeper (Abbrieviated)

My pet is dreadfully afraid of failing me. She has no reason to be, I've always been extremely accepting and patient with any of her shortcomings. It's from her life before me, and something we work hard to correct.

She has promised me, assured me, sworn to me that she will use her safeword if needed. I also know she would feel like a failure if she did use it. .

This is normal, submissives sometimes do not like to use their safewords, it makes them feel wimpy, like they are criticizing their Dominant or they may not even wish to stop the scene. It is up to the Dom to know how far is too far. We are responsible for the condition of the submissive at all times. A safeword is merely a seatbelt or additional saftey valve. Many times a submissive will not know they are being damaged during a scene. But I do like the "Colors" for the reason it gives the submissive the chance to vocalize concerns they would have without making them feel like they are criticizing their Dom and the scene can keep progressing or flowing along. Their is no "Failure" when they are used only a guidance when a sub is asked her color and she calls "yellow, the ropes are a bit snug" or "the cane is pinching a bit much there." You can easily keep going but relocating your strokes or adjusting the rope while you play. Keep at her and reassuring her that she is not a failure where her saftey is concerned but realize that the safewords are only and addition the true responsibility is yours.

_____________________________

First rule in dealing with the Devil............................
..................................................................DON'T!

(in reply to HeavansKeeper)

Post #: 7

RE: Failure and the Use of Safewords - 3/24/2009 9:13:13 PM

LovingMistress45

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I have had experience with subs that were resistant to using safewords. In one case with a sub I was with I found out he had not used his safeword when there was an emotional melt down. In that moment I was responsive, nurturing and made sure that he was made to feel safe. However, at a later point when emotions were not running high we had a long talk and I made sure he knew how disappointed I was that he had not used his safeword. I also stressed that I had to be able to trust him to let me me know if there were problems by using his safeword and that if it occurred again that he didn't use it when he should have that I would not feel safe playing with him in any kind of way that would stretch his limits or introduce new activities. Explained again that his using his safeword would never disappoint me or make me unhappy, but his failure to do so did.

(in reply to MasterRaid)

Post #: 8

RE: Failure and the Use of Safewords - 3/24/2009 9:43:47 PM

atypicalsub

Posts: 284
Joined: 4/11/2008
From: an atypical sub
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Using my safewords is always something of a dilema for me. My Mistress is normaly gentle but admits to a sadistic side. I know I can not take nearly as much as some she has previously scened with so I am always concerned about disappointing her by making the scene end too soon. What has helped the most is her reassuring me that she is proud of me for what I have endured for her.

Perhaps it would help to rephrase it for your sub. Maybe you can get them to look at the safe word not as protecting themself, but that it is to protect your property (them). That by failing to use the safe words appropriately they are neglecting their responsibility to safeguard your most cherished possession. After all, if the sub allows themself to become damaged then you are being deprived of the service and fun until they heal. Okay, maybe that logic sounds convoluted but from this subbie's view it helps.

_____________________________

Polyamorous, solitary eclectic pagan, pansexual slut, and personal pet of MistressYes

"Do not do anything you are ashamed of, and don't be ashamed of anything you do"
(although I'm sure my bio-family wishes I did less and was ashamed of more)

(in reply to HeavansKeeper)

Post #: 9

RE: Failure and the Use of Safewords - 3/24/2009 9:50:50 PM

lovingpet

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Past issues are a big deal. I had a few early attempts at a scene that ended in safeword usage. I was not told I was a failure, but he took it so hard that I had used it that I would have rather kept going than have him be so disappointed in himself. I think it is important for both parties to realize that the use of safewords is not a failure on anyone's part. It is simply information. I know this somewhere inside my brain, but I can't always bring myself to put all those pieces together in the heat of the moment.

I think it is far better to ask or take information than to rely upon a submissive to give it up. I am not saying this because the submissive is purposely withholding information, but some (like me) just don't have the best grasp of words or logic once things get heated. I barely talk at all. That is everything from a simple yes or no to attempting to answer a complex question. Add to this, the weird games endorphins can play, and it is far better to rely upon observation and some basic questions if needed to keep things in check. Nothing is going to be failsafe. That is just reality, but a submissive has got a lot going on that makes safewords a tad more difficult to use than it may seem.

I understand that if ever I found myself to have not used a safeword when I should have, then I will have disappointed. I also know that I feel like I have not lived up to the fulfillment of his desires and have left him feeling like he failed me. That is a double whammy from my perspective. Regardless, however, I try to be more automatic and not so analytical about using them. I still just find it best to answer what I am asked rather than trying to develop a thought or concept of my own in such a deep and intimate moment. I use safewords because my partners want them, but I also look upon them as less useful than just asking what you want to know and using it to determine a course of action. My partners tend to do both and there have been no problems thus far.

I know this helped not at all. LOL

lovingpet

(in reply to LovingMistress45)

Post #: 10

RE: Failure and the Use of Safewords - 3/24/2009 10:05:10 PM

Andalusite

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Usually when I've most needed a safeword, I was incapable of speech. If a strike hits bone, or is way more than I can handle, it takes my breath away for a few seconds until I can process the pain, and sometimes, when I feel particularly submissive, I can't talk coherently. Fortunately, most of my partners have been able to read my body language easily, and I have also used a non-verbal signal such as keys with someone who is new.

My last partner liked making me tap out/safe out multiple times in the same scene, but not quite going to red. There were a couple of times that I probably should have safed out, but while I was almost at my limit, wasn't quite over/was trying to tough it out. He decided to stop at that point/switch to something else, and I was enjoying *him* enjoying it, even though I didn't like what he was doing to me.

There were several times when I felt like a wimp with him - normally I can take pain that leaves welts/bruises for a week or so, but he liked ramping right up along with me so I never got that cushion of endorphins, to the point where he could barely touch me and I was so sensitive it made me bawl.

< Message edited by Andalusite -- 3/24/2009 10:07:21 PM >

(in reply to HeavansKeeper)

Post #: 11

RE: Failure and the Use of Safewords - 3/24/2009 10:56:23 PM

KokuRan

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Joined: 11/18/2008
Status: offline

Try the "if she doesn't use the safe word when she needs it she is failing you"

If by not using a safeword she goes past her limits and is unable to play with you further, or has trouble in the future either due to physical or emotional issues, THEN that is the true failing.

(in reply to Andalusite)

Post #: 12

RE: Failure and the Use of Safewords - 3/24/2009 11:57:10 PM

atypicalsub

Posts: 284
Joined: 4/11/2008
From: an atypical sub
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Andalusite

Usually when I've most needed a safeword, I was incapable of speech. If a strike hits bone, or is way more than I can handle, it takes my breath away for a few seconds until I can process the pain, and sometimes, when I feel particularly submissive, I can't talk coherently. Fortunately, most of my partners have been able to read my body language easily, and I have also used a non-verbal signal such as keys with someone who is new.

Sometimes when Mistress knows she is going to push my pain limit we use a different fail-safe system. Instread of a safeword she has me bite down and hold her leather slapper in my teeth. If I drop the slapper it is the same as calling RED! I have to stay focused enough to hold onto it. Anything that would make me scream or cry out then ends the scene.

_____________________________

Polyamorous, solitary eclectic pagan, pansexual slut, and personal pet of MistressYes

"Do not do anything you are ashamed of, and don't be ashamed of anything you do"
(although I'm sure my bio-family wishes I did less and was ashamed of more)

(in reply to Andalusite)

Post #: 13

RE: Failure and the Use of Safewords - 3/25/2009 12:32:16 AM

WestBaySlave

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Status: offline

I often face a problem with safewords, in that I have a masochstic pain threshold that goes "Nice - Good - Great - Stop I'm Going To Die!"

A sadist can easily go from good times to hell for me, so pleasure-oriented sadists have tough jobs.

I know one dom I was with had a "yellow" or "red" safe word system, yellow meaning slow down, red meaning stop. I used red, but never yellow, which bothered him, but honestly everything was "green" up until it was unbearable.

(in reply to atypicalsub)

Post #: 14

RE: Failure and the Use of Safewords - 3/25/2009 3:20:58 AM

peppermint

Posts: 5170
Joined: 10/18/2005
From: Montana
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Wow, you two have a definate lack of trust between you. Even though she has promised, reassured, and sworn to you...you KNOW she would never safeword. As a result, you will not push during your play. She must realize by now that you don't believe her, so she knows you have lack of trust. You expect her to trust you, yet how can she when you refuse to trust her? How are you setting a good example?

(in reply to HeavansKeeper)

Post #: 15

RE: Failure and the Use of Safewords - 3/25/2009 8:00:08 AM

lovingpet

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There is always the option of entering a play session with the full disclosure that you intend to push her until she safewords and failing to do so will have consequences. I will trust you know what is well beyond her ability to handle. Use this as a gauge and you will have some idea if she is trying to take more than she can and you will be placing her in a situation where she knows she is "expected" to fail and, therefore, it is not failure. It is a test and one she must pass by putting an end to the scene when she has come to her limits. It is not the safest thing in the world to do and should not be necessary, but it is an option and one I know is used by some.

I don't know about a lack of trust, but experience builds trust. If there has never been an opportunity for her to prove herself, then the OP has no way of determining this unless it is to be an overall, generalized type of thing. I can see why there would be hesitation to approach something like a submissive's safety to this kind of trust. It is too important. I am not saying that an overt test is necessary, though some, as I mentioned, do approach it that way. I am saying that the hesitation from the OP leaves the submissive with no chance to back up her words with actions. If she is never placed in the position, she can neither fail nor succeed. I would suggest, by one method or another giving her the opportunity to do so. The outcome can be processed and worked with later.

lovingpet

(in reply to peppermint)

Post #: 16

RE: Failure and the Use of Safewords - 3/25/2009 8:47:50 AM

allthatjaz

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I think its a great question because I believe this is more common than we care to believe.

I was with a sub female for a year that shouldn't, wouldn't, couldn't use her safeword and no matter how much we talked about it and no matter how much I told her she was disappointing us both because I couldn't afford to be more adventurous with her, she still just couldn't bring herself to say that dreaded word 'potato'! Its something we never resolved but perhaps if we had gone on longer we would of eventually been able to sort that mental block out.

I don't know the answer and I hope that you find one but in the mean time keep telling her your concerns...... keep caring

Maria

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(in reply to lovingpet)

Post #: 17

RE: Failure and the Use of Safewords - 3/25/2009 10:00:10 AM

SteelofUtah

Posts: 5307
Joined: 10/2/2007
From: St George Utah
Status: offline

~~FR~~

Okay How do I put this ...... SAFEWORDING IS NOT FAILURE. It is Preservation!

Okay I don't have safe words..I know I'm a Dangerous Bastard. I don't have them because "Stop" means Stop, Ouch means Something Hurt, and "Honey that isn't feeling good." means that I am now aware this is making her feel uncomfortable and starting to cause issue.

Safewording is a sub saying, This is not good for me. If you want to play the Chest Thumping I know what's Best BS then feel free to say "If she can Safeword then she has control" I see it like this. She can ACTUALLY FEEL her own Body making her more qualified to know when it is in distress than I am.

So No I don't use safe words because I uses Regular Words to determine if she is okay or not.

Perhaps you need to go over why it is important that she let you know when she has had too much and that it isn't failure it's another way that she helps you to protect what is yours.

Steel

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(in reply to allthatjaz)

Post #: 18

RE: Failure and the Use of Safewords - 3/25/2009 10:36:38 AM

HeavansKeeper

Posts: 1254
Joined: 5/14/2007
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LeatherBentOne,
She doesn't really have limits. At least not formally. I am aware of what makes her lock up in fear, but she's willing to do anything I can/have conceived. Not saying we've done all those little fantasies, but she would. I always talk her through new things, and (partially because of this fear or lack of trust, but also because its simply proper care) keep a keen eye on her responses. The closer -I THINK- she would be to calling it quits, the louder she moans. She's fairly new at this lifestyle, only two years and having had only one owner, while playing online with others - but I can't help but feel she's much much... much.. more hardcore than I initially took her for. Thank you for the suggestions, though.

simpleplan2,
I don't understand the mindset either =\. I wish I did. When I used the word shortcomings, I meant it as a general phrase for when things didn't go 100% perfectly. Any issue on which improvement could be made. There's nothing wrong with shortcomings. Things rarely (if ever) go 100% according to plan. The little speed bumps can be pleasant surprises or learning opportunities. Later in this thread the word disappointment comes up, and when that is arbitrarily tacked onto natural shortcomings, that's a problem.

catize,
She reads these forums, and I hope your words shine to her.

DesFIP,
That's some good advice. I'll try that and see how it works for us.

Antipode,
I know =\. I'm a scientist at heart. I would prefer to just stress test the system to mark and correct critical failure points, if any. I'm looking for some way to test it without pushing my pet beyond her limits, potentially into emotional harm, to know. DesFIP's advice is good, if she can volunteer a scale, where 10 means "stop" and 4 means "thank you sir, may I have another?" I'll know her ability to judge and respond with signals. In another safewordy thread, I saw someone who uses "gentle" as theirs. They said it might be easier to say (less jarring) than red.

MasterRaid,
I agree with you. Its not topping from the bottom I fear. It's making sure she has the wherewithal to announce how she feels.

For time reasons, I'll get back to more of you later... Especially peppermint

_____________________________

The Loving Owner of HisHeavan

... You've waited your whole life for this moment...

(in reply to HeavansKeeper)

Post #: 19

RE: Failure and the Use of Safewords - 3/25/2009 1:55:40 PM

FangsNfeet

Posts: 3758
Joined: 12/3/2004
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In my case, I always have to check breathing, alertness, and response to stimuli. Breathing is always good. I've never had a sub stop breathing on me. Alertness tells me if they still talk or follow some type of movement command. And Response lets me know if they can still feel a shocking jolt, cold ice, hard pinch, etc....

If she does not wiggle your fingers after I tell you to or don't respond to something that normally makes you jump, then we've just hit that "Sub Space" point and start the after care.

Alertness and Response will let you know when she's in sub space and suppose to use the safe word. Just remember to keep checking and not find yourself going into what's known as "Dom Space."

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(in reply to HeavansKeeper)

Post #: 20

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