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RE: Beyond Consent ? - 3/26/2009 3:07:10 AM   
allthatjaz


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ExKat

My definition of consent is that it is dubious at best. Assuming you're a good guy and a good dominant, you'll take your submissive's verbal and non-verbal communications into account and call it off if things don't feel right. You could have her consent to every activity imaginable, but, if, for example, she broke her wrist when you tossed her onto the concrete floor, then all bets are off, and she effectively withdraws her consent.

I've been reading lately about the legality of consent for BDSM actions, and, to be honest, it's so shady and shifty that my whole concept of consent is skewed right now. Good luck!


English law states that there is no such thing as consent to be harmed other than tattoo, piercing, boxing and wrestling.
If you did get caught then the one on the bottom would be up in court for aiding and abetting.
The law won't change in this instance, no matter how much the small fraction groups highlight and campaign against it.

Aside from the law we need to put our own secret rules in place because if we were to follow the law by the letter none of us would be doing this.


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RE: Beyond Consent ? - 3/26/2009 4:35:42 AM   
eyesopened


Posts: 2798
Joined: 6/12/2006
From: Tampa, FL
Status: offline 		I have never understood the need to redefine words that are perfectly defined already.  The root of the word consent is com + sentire and that means "together feel" and that means there is a shared feeling about something or an agreement or accord.  Why should this definition be any different in smbd??

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RE: Beyond Consent ? - 3/26/2009 4:43:37 AM   
robertolapiedra


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quote:

ORIGINAL: eyesopened

I have never understood the need to redefine words that are perfectly defined already.  The root of the word consent is com + sentire and that means "together feel" and that means there is a shared feeling about something or an agreement or accord.  Why should this definition be any different in smbd??


Hello eyesopened. You need a copy of the unabridged Uberdictionnary for narcissistic dominants.
- Consent: Whatever the dominant thinks should be consented to without verbal or tacit approbation.
- Non-consent: When the shit hits the fan.

RL.

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RE: Beyond Consent ? - 3/26/2009 5:43:28 AM   
cantilena


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quote:

ORIGINAL: eyesopened

I have never understood the need to redefine words that are perfectly defined already.  The root of the word consent is com + sentire and that means "together feel" and that means there is a shared feeling about something or an agreement or accord.  Why should this definition be any different in smbd??


I really agree with this and feel the same way.

Sometimes it's good to question established practice, paradigms, convention or tradition. Growth can happen that way.  But I think it's taken way too far as well, and trying to question or redefine 'consent' as it applies to kinky stuff we do is an example.  Sometimes, when it happens, my belief is that people are just thinking too much.  Other times, my belief is that people are trying to sound ultra-sophisticated, in-the-know, more-informed than others, or sometimes just trying to be provocative.

If presented with a reasoned-out, thoughtful argument supporting a provocative comment when it's made.- that's different.  It give others a chance to understand why the comment got made and have an opportunity to frame a response.  A sincere question is also different - i.e. asking why a standard convention exists.  When neither of the two seem to be there, to me, it's just hot air.

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RE: Beyond Consent ? - 3/26/2009 7:50:09 AM   
RCdc


Posts: 8674
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quote:

ORIGINAL: allthatjaz
Are you saying consent is bullshit?

 
In BDSM terms?  Absolutely.
quote:

 
That all we do is non consensual? not sure if I agree or disagree with you. I know there is a lot "we" do that is not explicitly consensual but then if its not on the list of hard limits then its OK to do it.... hmmmm

 
I don't believe in 'Limits' either.  To me, it's another buzz word.
I don't have limits. Yet, I am not a 'no limits' slave.  I find that both are misused and misunderstood.  The word limit infers that there is a line drawn.  Like a glass.  There is a limit that can be filled, but that doesn't stop someone trying to over fill it.  There is a limit to driving down a road, but that doesn't mean it isn't a breakable one.  This is the basic arguement that people have over and over again and where there is confusion of limitations.
Placing limitations on anything is counter productive.  Have do and don't do is much clearer and more precise.

Consent is the same.  Within a specific relationship there is a smokescreen of consent.  Fact is, it's not consent, it is compromise. Limits is compatability.  The only time consent is used with any validity is if the people concerned live the life of a hermit.  And even that is stretching things.
 
the.dark.

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RE: Beyond Consent ? - 3/26/2009 7:54:55 AM   
Lordandmaster


Posts: 10943
Joined: 6/22/2004
Status: offline 		Yes, exactly.  The problem with "consent" is that it's a legal term; it applies well to legal questions, not so well to emotional ones.  (And even in the legal domain, "consent" is not always a transparent concept.)  As people in this thread have pointed out, there are lots of situations in a BDSM relationship where it's not so easy to show that the sub gave his or her informed consent.  Sometimes the sub isn't even capable of doing so.  That can make the legal issues very hairy.

quote:

ORIGINAL: ExKat

I've been reading lately about the legality of consent for BDSM actions, and, to be honest, it's so shady and shifty that my whole concept of consent is skewed right now. Good luck!

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RE: Beyond Consent ? - 3/26/2009 7:59:12 AM   
RCdc


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quote:

ORIGINAL: atypicalsub
How can you say consent is a 'bullshitting pretence'?  Do you mean that you believe everything done in bdsm is forced or coerced? 


Coerced?  Sometimes.  Forced?  Of course!  On someone, somewhere.
People get so wrapped up in the notion that BDSM is such a private matter, but just like any relationship, it affects others, whether you want to admit it or not.

quote:

I don't know about your relationship but all the bdsm relationships I do know of involve a lot of consentual actions.  Speaking from my own experience my Mistress has never done anything to me that I did not consent to.
 
Consent - or compromise?  I just find consent to be an overly abused word.  And in BDSM, isn't abuse a 'bad' thing?
 
the.dark.

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RE: Beyond Consent ? - 3/26/2009 8:44:01 AM   
agirl


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quote:

ORIGINAL: JustStephen


Whats your interpretation of consent?



My interpretation of consent relies directly on the what and the who..when speaking about it as an overall concept.

Consent within my relationship is vague and not at all precise. It's not really something that needs delving into. I'm in a relationship of my choosing , with a man of my choosing , with enough relevant information to ensure that I won't be destroyed. 

Consent is * I agree to*........... well, I don't *agree to* on a moment by moment basis but I DO agree to be in this relationship with all it entails......It boils down to me agreeing to be here but not necessarily desiring everything that takes place.

agirl







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RE: Beyond Consent ? - 3/26/2009 9:14:54 AM   
littleone35


Posts: 2828
Joined: 2/17/2005
Status: offline 		Consent  Master has my full comsent in everything we do right now.  If he was ever gonna throw smething out of left field that we never discussed.  I trust him and know he would never break my hard limits.  I think though if he wanted tpo try something that he is not sure i would like he would ask me about it.  Even of i don't like it as long as it is not going to harm me in anyway he cand do it because HE likes it.

Matt's littleone

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RE: Beyond Consent ? - 3/26/2009 9:39:25 AM   
cantilena


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Joined: 8/6/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark

I don't believe in 'Limits' either.  To me, it's another buzz word.
I don't have limits. Yet, I am not a 'no limits' slave.  I find that both are misused and misunderstood.  The word limit infers that there is a line drawn.  Like a glass.  There is a limit that can be filled, but that doesn't stop someone trying to over fill it.  There is a limit to driving down a road, but that doesn't mean it isn't a breakable one.  This is the basic arguement that people have over and over again and where there is confusion of limitations.
Placing limitations on anything is counter productive.  Have do and don't do is much clearer and more precise.

I, for one, am glad you came back to the thread to elaborate on your earlier comment. I've read your postings for quite a long time and they typically give me a lot of food for thought in great ways.  In this case, I was surprised there wasn't clarity proposed, and thank you for providing it now.
 
Not to derail the thread to a discussion of limits, but in reading your thoughts above, my reaction is that this is one of semantics.  I'm getting that on a number of other threads current at the moment as well.  When a person says 'limits' - and his/her partner understands the meaning to be relevant to those things that either shouldn't be done or should be approached with caution, that's the terminology that works for them.  Again, that is predicated on the relationship.  To us, 'do and dont' is exactly the same thing as 'limit'.
 
A final thought, fwiw.  Yes, there are speed limits on roads and yes, those limits can be broken.  There can be consequences for doing so, however, that may range from the annoying (a ticket from the police) to the devastating (car hurling off the side of a cliff on a blind curve.)  A person who deliberately breaks the limits must accept the consequences.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark
Consent is the same.  Within a specific relationship there is a smokescreen of consent.  Fact is, it's not consent, it is compromise. Limits is compatability.  The only time consent is used with any validity is if the people concerned live the life of a hermit.  And even that is stretching things.
 
the.dark.


I agree somewhat and I also disagree.  I think limits and compatibility are closely related, but yet they are distinct.  I am compatible with my partner because we share like limits. Yes.  But shared limits is only a component of compatibility.

I disagree that consent is a smokescreen.  For me, I consent to be in this relationship.  It's not a legal-beagle thing.  It's an expression in the English language to express a fact for us.

 

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RE: Beyond Consent ? - 3/26/2009 9:40:57 AM   
cantilena


Posts: 224
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Status: offline 		Apologies.  I don't know why my post came out boldface and large like that!  I wasn't trying to shout.

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RE: Beyond Consent ? - 3/26/2009 10:04:26 AM   
RCdc


Posts: 8674
Status: offline 		Hello cantilena
 
The reason I didn't expand initially is because I just end up repeating myself from past postings.  Semantics?  Absolutely.   But something I believe is of importance.  There is a discussion on another forum where people are in a sense defending the notion of no limits and basically saying that no limits just means they found someone compatable or on the same wavelength.  So it's obvious that there is a divide and a misunderstand about what no limits entails, otherwise such a discussion wouldn't be occuring.  And this is one of the reasons why we(generic) get posts upon posts about people being pushed too far, broken or abused.  It's great to be in a relationship when two people have the same understanding of vocab, but that's as helpful or informative to single people or people on the outside looking in as a toothbrush to a snail.
So, people use buzz words.  Which is cool, except when these buzz words have a totally seperate definition or perception to what is meant.  A limit is a restriction, it has a boundary.  But it doesn't mean it cannot be pushed or overused/filled/etc.  The human mind is very basic when it comes down to it and unless something is clearly defined, it is all up for negotiation.  Limitations - even no limits for the human mind?  Sets up a challenge.
Humans are weird creatures.
 
On your issue about consent.  We just disagree.  If a relationship was an action, I could absolutely agree that consent is the best description.  But relationships are not an action.  People do not consent to a relationship.  They can't.   You either have compatable relationships or incompatable ones.  But not consensual and non consensual ones.
 
the.dark.


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RE: Beyond Consent ? - 3/26/2009 10:35:41 AM   
heartfeltsub


Posts: 1641
Joined: 11/5/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark

Hello cantilena
 
The reason I didn't expand initially is because I just end up repeating myself from past postings.  Semantics?  Absolutely.   But something I believe is of importance.  There is a discussion on another forum where people are in a sense defending the notion of no limits and basically saying that no limits just means they found someone compatable or on the same wavelength.  So it's obvious that there is a divide and a misunderstand about what no limits entails, otherwise such a discussion wouldn't be occuring.  And this is one of the reasons why we(generic) get posts upon posts about people being pushed too far, broken or abused.  It's great to be in a relationship when two people have the same understanding of vocab, but that's as helpful or informative to single people or people on the outside looking in as a toothbrush to a snail.
So, people use buzz words.  Which is cool, except when these buzz words have a totally seperate definition or perception to what is meant.  A limit is a restriction, it has a boundary.  But it doesn't mean it cannot be pushed or overused/filled/etc.  The human mind is very basic when it comes down to it and unless something is clearly defined, it is all up for negotiation.  Limitations - even no limits for the human mind?  Sets up a challenge.
Humans are weird creatures.
 
On your issue about consent.  We just disagree.  If a relationship was an action, I could absolutely agree that consent is the best description.  But relationships are not an action.  People do not consent to a relationship.  They can't.   You either have compatable relationships or incompatable ones.  But not consensual and non consensual ones.
 
the.dark.


 
* Bolded for emphasis
 
While i agree with a lot of what you are saying dark, about limits and no limits, the portion that i have highlighted is something that (a) i have a question about and (b) think that i disagree with. In reference to any relationship that a person can have, as a UM, there are indeed unconsentual relationships for them because of not having a voice or the right of choice, they are forced into relationships that they would not choose to have.
 
However as i'm fairly certain the discussion is about personal relationships between adults, i do agree that those relationships are ones that we as adults choose to be in or not to be in based on whether or not the other person is the relationship is compatible or not. However, while i've seen you make this statement before about consent, what i don't understand is are you just saying that the use of the word consent is inappropriate when describing a relationship as opposed to an action?
 
Because if i choose to be in a relationship, i have consented in be in that relationship. If that relationship has an authority dynamic to it, and i know that authority dynamics will limit or completely restrict my autonomy, then i have consented to that dynamics by choosing to be in that relationship. So again i see consent there. So i am a bit confused as to what you are saying.
 
heartfelt

*edited because i can't spell and sorry for the bolding, not sure how to turn it off

< Message edited by heartfeltsub -- 3/26/2009 10:38:59 AM >

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RE: Beyond Consent ? - 3/26/2009 10:43:15 AM   
cantilena


Posts: 224
Joined: 8/6/2007
Status: offline 		Like I said... true to form, there.  Lots of food for thought!!  :)

For now, I'll just say that I am in total agreement on the issue of compatible/incompatible relationships and that there would be probably be a whole lot fewer riled-up threads if that concept were accepted universally.  Total agreement.  I think I know the thread you're referring to.  I simply don't subscribe to the notion of 'no-limits', and said so there at some point, albeit with far less sense than what you've stated here.

For me, consensuality means agreement.  It means that there is an agreement to 'be' in that relationship - which is an action.  It's not something explicit, and you're correct that it's very much an outgrowth of a compatible partnership... I know my partner.  I know I'll never have an issue of abuse or of him overfilling that glass, so to speak.  So yes... it is compatibility.  But at least as far as the D/s and BDSM components of the relationship go, for us the word 'consent' is the best way I know how to describe the fact I'm a willing participant in those activities, regardless of how I may feel in the moment... argh.  :) 

I think I'll sleep on this one tonight.  I don't know that we're so far off in actual viewpoints... perhaps just how we express them.

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RE: Beyond Consent ? - 3/26/2009 10:52:21 AM   
IrishMist


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quote:

Whats your interpretation of consent?

In regards to the little scenario that you proposed, my interpretation of consent means nothing. If the two of you are happy with it, that's all tha matters.

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RE: Beyond Consent ? - 3/26/2009 11:20:00 AM   
RCdc


Posts: 8674
Status: offline 		Hello heartfelt
The thing about relationships, is that many people view them as only something you can agree to.  I disagree on that.  I am not getting into relationships between parents and children, because I don't want another mod warning.
 
But regardless of genders, age or race - people have relationships.  Not one of these relationships do we have any choice over, not even has adults.  I have a relationship with people here on CM.  I have a relationship with my parents.  I have a relationship with the guy that serves me at the post office.  We do, however have a say on the actions within a relationship.  The relationship itself is there, regardless of whether you want one or not.
 
To deny that our (generic)actions and the consent we(generic) allegedly give does not affect others and yet still insist that consent should play a major part of the 'lifestyle' or'community' or life in general, seems just bizarre to me.
 
the.dark.

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RE: Beyond Consent ? - 3/26/2009 11:23:08 AM   
RCdc


Posts: 8674
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quote:

ORIGINAL: cantilena
For me, consensuality means agreement. 


You cannot agree to something that already is.  You can arrange the parameters once it occurs.
Sleep well!
 
the.dark.

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love isnt gazing into each others eyes - it's looking forward in the same direction

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RE: Beyond Consent ? - 3/26/2009 11:26:58 AM   
RealSub58


Posts: 1073
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quote:

ORIGINAL: JustStephen

Whats your interpretation of consent?


I belong to my owner.
He is totally the best thing since Kopp's vanilla custard.
I have no fear of his protection powers.
This said....  I have consented to whatever he wishes, desires, wants. 

(in reply to JustStephen)
Profile   Post #: 38
RE: Beyond Consent ? - 3/26/2009 11:29:51 PM   
atypicalsub


Posts: 284
Joined: 4/11/2008
From: an atypical sub
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark

quote:

ORIGINAL: atypicalsub
How can you say consent is a 'bullshitting pretence'?  Do you mean that you believe everything done in bdsm is forced or coerced? 


Coerced?  Sometimes.  Forced?  Of course!  On someone, somewhere.
People get so wrapped up in the notion that BDSM is such a private matter, but just like any relationship, it affects others, whether you want to admit it or not.

 
You really need to give me an example of how anything my Mistress has done to me was ever forced or coerced.  I take care of her home, cook, and serve because I like to please her.  There was a hell of a lot of coercion going on in my previous vanilla relationships, but I'm not seeing any of it here.
 

quote:

quote:

I don't know about your relationship but all the bdsm relationships I do know of involve a lot of consentual actions.  Speaking from my own experience my Mistress has never done anything to me that I did not consent to.


Consent - or compromise?  I just find consent to be an overly abused word.  And in BDSM, isn't abuse a 'bad' thing?
 
the.dark.

 
How can you have a compromise without consent?  If the parties involved do not consent to follow the terms of an agreement then you have not reached a compromise.  On the other hand there are many things my Mistress and I consent to do together because we both enjoy them without there being any compromises.

 

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(although I'm sure my bio-family wishes I did less and was ashamed of more)


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RE: Beyond Consent ? - 3/26/2009 11:46:29 PM   
atypicalsub


Posts: 284
Joined: 4/11/2008
From: an atypical sub
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark

But regardless of genders, age or race - people have relationships.  Not one of these relationships do we have any choice over, not even has adults.  I have a relationship with people here on CM.  I have a relationship with my parents.  I have a relationship with the guy that serves me at the post office.  We do, however have a say on the actions within a relationship.  The relationship itself is there, regardless of whether you want one or not.
 
the.dark.

 
Wait a minute.  Now you are saying I don't have a choice to be in this relationship?  I made a very deliberate choice to drive 1,200 miles to be here.  If I had not done that I would not be in a relationship with my Mistress now.  I have friends because I made specific efforts to seek out other adults I share various interests with.  How can you say I had no choice to be in these relationships when they would not exist if I had not made efforts to engage these people?


_____________________________

Polyamorous, solitary eclectic pagan, pansexual slut, and personal pet of MistressYes

"Do not do anything you are ashamed of, and don't be ashamed of anything you do"
(although I'm sure my bio-family wishes I did less and was ashamed of more)


(in reply to RCdc)
Profile   Post #: 40
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