RE: The Discussion of "forced against your will"

RE: The Discussion of "forced against your will" (Full Version)

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angelic -> RE: The Discussion of "forced against your will" (3/25/2009 7:02:33 PM)
~fr~ It could be 'he/she forced me to do xyz', removes all guilt and/or any bad feelings in doing xyz, they were after all forced, so therefore, not responsible. ~edited to add~ The above comment is made in response to a D/s-M/s relationship. Not rape.

InTonguesslave -> RE: The Discussion of "forced against your will" (3/26/2009 2:59:17 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: domiguy quote: ORIGINAL: InTonguesslut I personally can be forced to do something which is against my will without the kicking, screaming, fighting back etc. It's not because i want to do it either, Yes i want Sir to have a vested interest in me and yes i do things i don't want to to keep him happy. However at no point do i really want to do the thing i am being forced into against my will. There is a difference between wanting to do something and wanting to keep someone happy. Two different entities. quote: ORIGINAL: InTonguesslut I can see where you are coming from but say someone attempted to rape me and i fought back like a wild banchee kicking and screaming. Thats force and against my will right? So what if someone tries to rape me and i don't fight back, what if i figure thats its going to happen whether i like it or not and just let them to get it over with. Is that not still force and against my will? I chose poorly in jumping in on your rape analogy...However, Both of these quotes I believe show a certain mindset. I believe that you feel that you don't want to put up a "fuss" when it comes to getting raped...It is going to happen after all, why fight it? If something is brought to you that you find disgusting since there is no other alternative you might as well just do it. Who cares about the personal ramifications? It's such a fuss. I am soooo tired of of the "no-limit" sub crappola. If your Dom told you to go fuck a guy you didn't want to, you would do it. it's not consensual..It is rape, but you wouldn't want to put up a "fuss" because it's going to happen one way or another. That is the point I was trying to make. I hope you all can understand this...it really is quite simple. I was not trying to be humorous in the least. Misogynistic? Moi? Hardly. I expect much from women. I can't stand fucking strippers, and no limit subs. I want a woman that has lived up to her potential. That has views, intelligence and self esteem. That possesses the ability to discern that not everything that someone tells her is right or right for her. Out here she seems to becoming a rarity. and so it goes. what you seem to not realise here is that before any relationship begins there is discussion about what a person is prepared to do or not prepared to do. youre assumption that slaves have no limits, they do, i have limits, i chose a Master and he chose me because we agreed on those limits before hand and found a common ground. yes there are things he wants that i weighed up, we reached a compromise on and i will now agree to. but there are limits to what i will do and agree to and he respects that. he chose me and intonguesslut because we are smart, intelligent, strong and probably at times a little challenging - we are more than capable of looking after ourselves and we do and we have, but in there is the ability to recognise what we have in Him and so whilst he looks after us in lots of ways that have nothing atall to do with kink, by return we choose to look after him in the areas he has interest in. people dont choose to be raped unless its a kink they have. those things might be challenging and at times we might need to force ourselves through them but submission isnt always about what the submissive wants, very often its all about what the Dominant wants, who takes the time to lead us, understand us, provide us with support and a place of nurture and care. to the point where trust in him and his judgement over things makes the undoable, doable. we are of a type that compliments each other.

InTonguesslave -> RE: The Discussion of "forced against your will" (3/26/2009 3:07:56 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: sublace I sincerely apologize. I don't sense M.Domiguy's words were intended to be corrosive. Men do care. * "Inevitable" as the sun rising ( no choice, yield, submit to dawn). The decision of passivity or NOT fighting an assailant. A choice to yield - for survival (best choice to ...live) In other words - Not accepting rape - simply* - embracing life ( this is making me sick, but I wish to mitigate and soothe if at all possible) "It was out of your hands, inevitable as the sun rising " Bless anyone who has known such horror and is here today. You're brave - its ok [:)] - people fall out on here, lots of different people with lots of different view points - live and let live and all that. hugs xx

allthatjaz -> RE: The Discussion of "forced against your will" (3/26/2009 3:56:00 AM)
I find myself agreeing with in lally. I often wonder about the no limits slave and if I were looking for a sub/slave I probably wouldn't be interested in someone that has stated in a profile that they have no limits unless they could explain what they mean by that in a reasonably intelligent way. Steve and me never spoke about limits so much as what we did and didn't like. The progression of getting to know each other and myself getting to know what he 'Was' and 'Was Not' into, was what brought us to the conclusion that we don't have limits. It simply states that 'we don't have limits within what we do'. If he had originally stated that he had this desire to farm me out to a Mistress for a couple of weeks then Im afraid I would of had a firm limit set in place but as it so happens, I know Steves boundaries (his limits if you like). I think a no limit sub is only relevant when they truly know the partner they are with.

InTonguesslave -> RE: The Discussion of "forced against your will" (3/26/2009 6:16:53 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: allthatjaz I find myself agreeing with in lally. I often wonder about the no limits slave and if I were looking for a sub/slave I probably wouldn't be interested in someone that has stated in a profile that they have no limits unless they could explain what they mean by that in a reasonably intelligent way. Steve and me never spoke about limits so much as what we did and didn't like. The progression of getting to know each other and myself getting to know what he 'Was' and 'Was Not' into, was what brought us to the conclusion that we don't have limits. It simply states that 'we don't have limits within what we do'. If he had originally stated that he had this desire to farm me out to a Mistress for a couple of weeks then Im afraid I would of had a firm limit set in place but as it so happens, I know Steves boundaries (his limits if you like). I think a no limit sub is only relevant when they truly know the partner they are with. hey there [:)] i think sometimes people put up 'no limits' because there is a beforehand assumption that whoever they land up with isnt going to be completely bonkers. i think its entirely possible for an intelligent person to go into this with the view that their intelligence will protect them from the nutters and therefore, stating they have no limits is broadly based on the fact that they will find someone closely aligned to themselves with whom there will be no need for limits. what im trying to say is, that within their remit of what they are looking for there are no limits. so, when you look at their list of likes and dislikes you can see that actually they do have prefferances and they do have things they havent listed for good reason.

InTonguesslave -> RE: The Discussion of "forced against your will" (3/26/2009 6:36:01 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: angelic ~fr~ It could be 'he/she forced me to do xyz', removes all guilt and/or any bad feelings in doing xyz, they were after all forced, so therefore, not responsible. ~edited to add~ The above comment is made in response to a D/s-M/s relationship. Not rape. i totally see what youre saying, but i think that when an individual renaigs on their own comfort zones and passes all responsibility over to someone else it can badly backfire. thats ok within the limits set - but if its something that the sub really has a problem with and just hands it over to someone else to avoid the guilt of need then if it does go badly wrong youll have a sub that feels defiled, damaged and seriously questionning the judgement, trust and limits within their dynamic. i think you always have to take responsibility for what you agree to, its only then, that if all goes wrong you can look back and say 'ok, i agreed to that, noones fault, wont do that again' - as apposed to 'he/she made me do that, i really didnt want to, that wasnt what i signed up for, i feel sick and stupid and i hate myself and i hate them' - its unlikely that the relationship will bounce back from that to where it was before.

Andalusite -> RE: The Discussion of "forced against your will" (3/26/2009 8:09:05 AM)
Domiguy, I have actually eaten food that was nasty because someone I felt submissive toward wanted me to - specifically canned, barbequed eel. I am VERY squeamish about eating icky things/slimy things/weird seafood/weird vegetables, but because he wanted me to, I was willing to try it. I didn't get turned on by doing it, but I was a little proud of myself for being brave, and was happy that he was pleased with me. We weren't doing forced play with it, though - if he had on that particular thing, I probably would have dug in my heels. Lally, I'm not interested in M/s or in "no limits" relationships, but most of my limits are how hard something is used on me, or under what circumstances, rather than the toy or activity itself. For example, I love singletails now, but was afraid of being whipped with one before the first time I tried them. I didn't list them as a limit, because I figured my partner could use the popper to toy with my nipples, or tie me up with the lash, or thwack me with the handle, etc. Ya just have to think outside the box a bit. ;) Something that isn't a hard limit, that I enjoy under other circumstances, can still make me feel really horrible, vulnerable, and degraded in the moment. Usually backing off and doing something else, and trying again either later in the same scene or a different evening will change it into a positive experience again, but it being something I signed up for/am willing to do doesn't necessarily make me feel any better right that moment. To me, that's what communication and observation is about (including safewords/safe actions, tone, breathing, body language, etc.).

InTonguesslut -> RE: The Discussion of "forced against your will" (3/26/2009 8:14:51 AM)
quote: stating they have no limits is broadly based on the fact that they will find someone closely aligned to themselves with whom there will be no need for limits Exactly [:D] I have not even discussed limits with Sir.

InTonguesslave -> RE: The Discussion of "forced against your will" (3/26/2009 9:09:28 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: InTonguesslut quote: stating they have no limits is broadly based on the fact that they will find someone closely aligned to themselves with whom there will be no need for limits Exactly [:D] I have not even discussed limits with Sir. come to think of it, im not sure i have either - it was more along the lines of 'thats yukky, yes i agree, so we wont be doing that then - no - good'

InTonguesslut -> RE: The Discussion of "forced against your will" (3/26/2009 9:19:00 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: InTonguesslave quote: ORIGINAL: InTonguesslut quote: stating they have no limits is broadly based on the fact that they will find someone closely aligned to themselves with whom there will be no need for limits Exactly [:D] I have not even discussed limits with Sir. come to think of it, im not sure i have either - it was more along the lines of 'thats yukky, yes i agree, so we wont be doing that then - no - good' Lol [:D] You do know we are in for stick now for not discussing limits [:'(]

Jeptha -> RE: The Discussion of "forced against your will" (3/26/2009 9:52:18 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: CatdeMedici I am going to put out the premise that when one acquiesces to a Dominant, the "against my will" concept is crap-that it is really: i am too lazy to do it i want someone who cares about me to ask it i want to do it but my moral upbringing won't set me free i am too scared to do it alone i am too uneducated to know the difference i don't want to have a conscience about it i need someone to care enough to accept it i get off on the "game" At that point it is---acquiescence--there is no forcing. Agree with you because you state At that point however, at some other point the relationship could become one that features some element of coercion. It could become a lot like any other relationship where there is a power imbalance. At that further point, (which could follow considerably quickly after your first point), who knows? At that point, you could get any type of possible relationship, from abusive to healthy to everywhere inbetween. Personally, I favor the "equal partners" model ~ that's why I often refer to my partners as "partners" (even though it sounds businessy and impersonal - like one or two steps up from "Walmart Associates"...), rather than "subs". I agree with you in principle, especially because I've been trying to practice taking responsibility for every decision I make, big or small. But I'm not sure if you can project that same expectation onto everyone else or not. I encourage it, and in situations where others are involved, I'd rather expect it, but as far as someone's governing their own personal lives, I'm not as sure. Personally, I love playing with ideas of coercion, but I don't actually wish to make somebody do anything they find genuinely distasteful or unsafe (...with maybe some exceptions for small actions that have more of a symbolic character and are probably more humiliating or embarrassing than painful or maybe a little scary, but not so much unsafe.) That's part of what attracted me to whatever-you-call-it; that there seemed to be lots of choices and conscious decision making, and not quite as much rote assumption (So one can "choose" coercion, exactly as in your example.)

domiguy -> RE: The Discussion of "forced against your will" (3/26/2009 1:13:34 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: InTonguesslut quote: I chose poorly in jumping in on your rape analogy...However, Both of these quotes I believe show a certain mindset. I believe that you feel that you don't want to put up a "fuss" when it comes to getting raped...It is going to happen after all, why fight it? If something is brought to you that you find disgusting since there is no other alternative you might as well just do it. Who cares about the personal ramifications? It's such a fuss. You did choose poorly opting for rape to further your crusade against no limit subs. As has been said by myself and others here when it comes to rape it isn't a case of it's going to happen so why fight it? Sometimes it is a case of not fighting means the attacker loses interest, the ordeal is over quicker or the physical damage can be lessened. quote: I am soooo tired of of the "no-limit" sub crappola. Then don't have one, eureka, fucking simple !! Each to their own and i say leave them to it. I'm happy being a no limit sub. You're happy not having a no limit sub. Let it go and move on to your next rampage of ivory towerness. No let's dwell on this a little longer... Domiguy scans the horizon from his ivory tower and in amazement he sees the corpses of so many no-limit subs bobbing on the lake like bloated buoys. It's all so sad. Their masters forced them to jump off of a bridge, the no-limit subs prayed that their "extreme" submission would allow them to float....It just is what it is. A Darwinian approach to thinning the herd and thereby strengthening the remaining gene pool. You are the one that "played" the rape card. Boo hoo. You equated rape to any other task that might not be completed with your compliance....I get the feeling that you compare rape with just about the same disdain I feel about riding the bus. It was a poor attempt at making a point. In your relationship you are never forced to do a fucking thing. You choose to do it because you feel it will make someone happy. That is your choice. You have never been "forced" to do shit. You have allowed everything that has happened to you to occur. You are 100% complicit. But please continue on. Tell me about the fire falls on Gor, and your love of ren faires and how you can singlehandedly gut a unicorn. It is just so interesting to hear someone that has no compass give directions.

allthatjaz -> RE: The Discussion of "forced against your will" (3/26/2009 1:28:42 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: InTonguesslave quote: ORIGINAL: allthatjaz I find myself agreeing with in lally. I often wonder about the no limits slave and if I were looking for a sub/slave I probably wouldn't be interested in someone that has stated in a profile that they have no limits unless they could explain what they mean by that in a reasonably intelligent way. Steve and me never spoke about limits so much as what we did and didn't like. The progression of getting to know each other and myself getting to know what he 'Was' and 'Was Not' into, was what brought us to the conclusion that we don't have limits. It simply states that 'we don't have limits within what we do'. If he had originally stated that he had this desire to farm me out to a Mistress for a couple of weeks then Im afraid I would of had a firm limit set in place but as it so happens, I know Steves boundaries (his limits if you like). I think a no limit sub is only relevant when they truly know the partner they are with. hey there [:)] i think sometimes people put up 'no limits' because there is a beforehand assumption that whoever they land up with isnt going to be completely bonkers. i think its entirely possible for an intelligent person to go into this with the view that their intelligence will protect them from the nutters and therefore, stating they have no limits is broadly based on the fact that they will find someone closely aligned to themselves with whom there will be no need for limits. what im trying to say is, that within their remit of what they are looking for there are no limits. so, when you look at their list of likes and dislikes you can see that actually they do have prefferances and they do have things they havent listed for good reason. M says i am completely bonkers [:D] Steve

InTonguesslut -> RE: The Discussion of "forced against your will" (3/26/2009 1:49:36 PM)
quote: No let's dwell on this a little longer... Ok sure thing. However when we do dwell please refrain from whinging about hearing about no limit slave crapola. Remember you asked for it [:D] quote: Domiguy scans the horizon from his ivory tower and in amazement he sees the corpses of so many no-limit subs bobbing on the lake like bloated buoys. It's all so sad. Their masters forced them to jump off of a bridge, the no-limit subs prayed that their "extreme" submission would allow them to float....It just is what it is. A Darwinian approach to thinning the herd and thereby strengthening the remaining gene pool. Well in the sink or swim debate i'm a swimmer. I'm well prepared for jumping off that bridge and therefore would not be a corpse. quote: You are the one that "played" the rape card. Boo hoo. You equated rape to any other task that might not be completed with your compliance....I get the feeling that you compare rape with just about the same disdain I feel about riding the bus. It was a poor attempt at making a point. I made an analogy. You attempted to put that analogy down by claiming you know about rape. Have you been raped? No, therefore i would say you're pretty much unqualified to judge what any woman does in that situation. As for being a bad attempt at making a point, your opinion but didn't seem to be shared. quote: In your relationship you are never forced to do a fucking thing. You choose to do it because you feel it will make someone happy. That is your choice. You have never been "forced" to do shit. You have allowed everything that has happened to you to occur. You are 100% complicit. Actually i'd beg to differ. As i already told you i have been raped. Are you choosing to say i allowed 12 bikers to beat the crap out of me whilst anally and vaginally raping me at 15. I screamed and clawed and bit and cried but yes i let them do it im 100% complicit like that. Jeeze you really are being an ass. quote: But please continue on. Tell me about the fire falls on Gor, and your love of ren faires and how you can singlehandedly gut a unicorn. It is just so interesting to hear someone that has no compass give directions No interest in gor, never been to a ren faire and unicorns don't exist. You can however call me mental all you like, your opinion is worth squat to me and those around me. Why don't you just get over it and yourself?

Lockit -> RE: The Discussion of "forced against your will" (3/26/2009 2:02:23 PM)
When someone has a gun pointed at your head... you would think that you would do whatever it is they decided you were to do. At least for that moment. Some might take a chance to overcome the gun holder... some might not. In that moment, one decides and it could very well be, that their life and continuing to live it might be in that decission. When you have a bigger, stronger bully of a guy with a glint in his eye who in some way has made it clear what he intends to do whether you agree or not... in that moment or the following moments, you decide what to do or react, depending on a lot of things. To compare this type of situation to one that is a relationship between two or more people and force of any kind may have some similarities but also doesn't compare. Bringing into it... no limit slaves and attitudes and distaste or dislike doesn't have a damn thing to do with understanding what rape and force is. You can't prove a real thing is not real because you think another thing is fake. You are in a situation and each situation is different. I have been raped more than once. I responded differently each time. Some rape didn't happen becasue I fought... some did. Some did, not because I accepted, but was over powered. Some happened because it was going to happen no matter what I did and I determined that my typical method wouldnt work with the crazy guy with the glint in his eye. I did not accept any of it. I accepted I was in a situation that I had to use my brain and body to get out of or through. Until someone is there... you cannot know... and really ought not to discredit those that have been.

domiguy -> RE: The Discussion of "forced against your will" (3/26/2009 2:12:25 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: InTonguesslut quote: In your relationship you are never forced to do a fucking thing. You choose to do it because you feel it will make someone happy. That is your choice. You have never been "forced" to do shit. You have allowed everything that has happened to you to occur. You are 100% complicit. Actually i'd beg to differ. As i already told you i have been raped. Are you choosing to say i allowed 12 bikers to beat the crap out of me whilst anally and vaginally raping me at 15. I screamed and clawed and bit and cried but yes i let them do it im 100% complicit like that. Jeeze you really are being an ass. quote: But please continue on. Tell me about the fire falls on Gor, and your love of ren faires and how you can singlehandedly gut a unicorn. It is just so interesting to hear someone that has no compass give directions No interest in gor, never been to a ren faire and unicorns don't exist. You can however call me mental all you like, your opinion is worth squat to me and those around me. Why don't you just get over it and yourself? I'm having a hard time telling the slut from the slave...Seems you are just one formless thang. Anywhooo, last point. I realize that really awful shit happens to some pretty damn good people. It is not that I don't have compassion for smokers that are diagnosed with lung cancer...But then again, you kind of brought this shit on yourself. Yanno what I mean? Now a child getting sick or just one of those random illnesses that befalls us; where you do everything right, you live a good life and still get breast cancer, that sucks and my deepest empathy and respect go out to those individuals. However, for many of us bad shit has come our way. I am lucky. Nothing Earth shattering has ever come my way. I can firmly say that every bit of trouble that has found me I have played a huge roll in allowing it to transpire. By lack of action, not paying attention to my surroundings or just allowing myself to hang out with the wrong fucking people. Who knows, maybe you were kidnapped from some lovely home by those bikers? Maybe all of this was beyond your control. I doubt it. It doesn't make their actions less wrong, but it does reflect somewhat back on you. Fuck it! In this country 15 year olds are held accountable as adults all of the time! However, I am sure this horrible event had no long term effect on you at all. I am sure you are here because you are a mentally healthy and have dealt with your problems. You sound perfect.

Lockit -> RE: The Discussion of "forced against your will" (3/26/2009 2:21:35 PM)
One can be so understanding... that they are not and when insulting someone... not knowing each mile they traveled and why they are where they are at any point of the path... proves that the understanding shown was not meant directly. There are some shattered at a young age who rebuild and along the way some of that shattered might come forth... to not look at the growth or rebuilding and to judge it without all the information and be insulting... only proves one thing... The ignorance in which one speaks.

domiguy -> RE: The Discussion of "forced against your will" (3/26/2009 2:24:55 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Lockit To compare this type of situation to one that is a relationship between two or more people and force of any kind may have some similarities but also doesn't compare. Bringing into it... no limit slaves and attitudes and distaste or dislike doesn't have a damn thing to do with understanding what rape and force is. You can't prove a real thing is not real because you think another thing is fake. I have been raped more than once. I responded differently each time. Some rape didn't happen becasue I fought... some did. Some did, not because I accepted, but was over powered. Some happened because it was going to happen no matter what I did and I determined that my typical method wouldnt work with the crazy guy with the glint in his eye. I did not accept any of it. I accepted I was in a situation that I had to use my brain and body to get out of or through. Until someone is there... you cannot know... and really ought not to discredit those that have been. Please read my posts. I think the utilization of rape as an activity which is forced is a poor example. Especially in the manner it was presented...Duh! Anywhooo, I think the slut and slave have shown a very callousness in using that analogy. It was a rather lackadaisical description. No outrage, just "Oh well, time to get raped. Nothing I can do here." Again, I'm sorry that you were raped several times. No one has the right to do that to anyone, unless you are on CM and say that you are a "no-limit" sub. Then it is all fun and games. Personal responsibility out here is seriously lacking. No one is to blame for shit. It should be printed on our dollar. " In others we blame." I have played a part in everything rotten that has come my way. I guess I must be the only one.

Lockit -> RE: The Discussion of "forced against your will" (3/26/2009 2:37:55 PM)
Although I was not an adult when I experienced most of what I experienced... the rapes as awful they were and as challenging as it was to get through and over... were a good thing for me. I learned not to be afriad. I learned how to defend myself. I learned my own strengths, both physical and emotional. Would I want to do it again? No... but it happened and I did what was best then and I do what is best now. Someone may bring up rape in comparision to something said when a word like force is used to prove a point. That can also be a part of the after effects of rape. You may relate it to things unrelated because somehow it does relate to YOU. You may not use it to discredit someone, but to make a point. Making a point is wonderful whether I agree with it or not.. I agree to one having a right to make that point. BUT... what I disagree with is someone not involved holding someone else accountable and insulting them and interjecting insulting emphasis on their name. Make a point without the ugly and you might be heard for the points you are really trying to make rather than inflaming the situation. One right doesn't make a wrong...(opps... two wrongs don't make a right) a mistake.. stupid move or whatever does not make it right for someone else to take advantage and rape. Sure one should acknowledge what happened and their part in it... but doesn't mean that for the rest of their life they must asnwer for it or defend it or be subject to a continuous battering of their person. I am not sure that the people involved haven't addressed this and are only blaming the bad guy. This sounds more like a personal thing that someone doesn't like about someone and an angle in making a point... rather ungracefully.

InTonguesslut -> RE: The Discussion of "forced against your will" (3/26/2009 2:44:51 PM)
Domi, I see np point in holding furthr discussion with you on this. As i said before if you don't like no limits slaves then fine don't have one. Berating them and claiming they are insane just shows immaturity. Obsession eats a person yanno and all i see is an obsession from you on this no limits thing. Every thread you post in mentions them and turns into a discussion on them. Its pretty pathetic to be honest. This is the end of the line for me in this discussion with you.

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