RE: Obama: Taliban and al-Qaida must be stopped (Full Version)

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philosophy -> RE: Obama: Taliban and al-Qaida must be stopped (3/28/2009 10:39:13 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

Yes there was funding of the IRA from here.

If you knew who these many anonymous contributors were, would you want them prosecuted?

In our case, we do know.



......your syntax is a little obscure here. Thing is, it is known who, in the US, funded the IRA. They didn't do so directly, instead they funnelled money into shell charities knowing full well what the money would be used for.....then claimed tax relief on the monies given. So yes.....you (the US) do know who funded IRA terrorism. You just wont prosecute them.



slvemike4u -> RE: Obama: Taliban and al-Qaida must be stopped (3/28/2009 10:55:21 AM)

I must be missing something here...are only nation/states whose hands are totally clean allowed to respond to terrorist attacks.Will it help if we drop the pretense of justice and label it revenge....I don't think too many Americans give a shit what label is attached as long as bin Laden and his cohorts are dispatched.
In this instance I for one  am comfortable with whatever you choose to call it.



Politesub53 -> RE: Obama: Taliban and al-Qaida must be stopped (3/28/2009 11:31:08 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ProphetPX

WAKE UP, SHEEPLE! BUSH KNEW on and before 9/11!



Its odd for you to call everyone sheeple, while you believe all the conspiracy nuts.



Lucylastic -> RE: Obama: Taliban and al-Qaida must be stopped (3/28/2009 11:40:23 AM)

Politesub, depending on your viewpoint, everyone who disagrees with you is a sheeple. Now just drink your koolaid/ribena[:D]
its the new "in" word to claim superiority of belief and edumacation
Baaaaaaaa(with ribena lips)
Lucy



slvemike4u -> RE: Obama: Taliban and al-Qaida must be stopped (3/28/2009 11:49:52 AM)

Polite sub there was so much wrong with his many post's....how did you settle on the "sheeple" angle...lol



philosophy -> RE: Obama: Taliban and al-Qaida must be stopped (3/28/2009 12:28:01 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

I must be missing something here...are only nation/states whose hands are totally clean allowed to respond to terrorist attacks.Will it help if we drop the pretense of justice and label it revenge....


.....well, to the first point...of course not. All states have to respond to terrorism. Your second point i actually agree with. If the US wants the moral high ground to act in the name of justice then they must at least make good faith efforts to be just. However, should the US wish to abdicate from the moral high ground and just be driven by revenge then that is, at least, a consistent position.

You've pretty much addressed the point i've been trying to make all along.  A law abiding householder has a perfect right to require justice if their house is broken into. A householder who breaks the law and makes no effort to make reparation is in a dodgy position to demand justice if their house is broken into...however,  they may well desire revenge.

It comes down to what sort of country you want to be.  Which is the point i've been making all along.



slvemike4u -> RE: Obama: Taliban and al-Qaida must be stopped (3/28/2009 1:02:20 PM)

Well Philo I am sure most Americans aspire to that higher ground you speak of......but they are not willing to fore go justice/revenge in this case in furtherance of that end...(my apologies for speaking of my fellow citizens in such general terms)



philosophy -> RE: Obama: Taliban and al-Qaida must be stopped (3/28/2009 1:19:33 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

Well Philo I am sure most Americans aspire to that higher ground you speak of......but they are not willing to fore go justice/revenge in this case in furtherance of that end


...but they don't have to forego anything to occupy that higher ground. All that is needed is to do to others as you want to be done by. A Christian message for a supposedly Christian nation.
The US, rightly, required Libya to pony up after it was implicated in the Lockerbie bombing. How is that any different to the US ponying up for its actions in Nicaragua?

Seems as if we've veered off topic a bit, but i'd suggest this is the very core of the problem. US foreign relations have been dogged by this double standard for a while. There always seems to be an excuse for why the US doesn't have to pay for its actions against other countries while it demands that others pay for actions against itself. This has created a perception that the US can not really be trusted. In that climate, is it really suprising that some countries feel they need to develop nuclear weapons in order to defend themselves?



Owner59 -> RE: Obama: Taliban and al-Qaida must be stopped (3/28/2009 1:31:14 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ProphetPX

WAKE UP, SHEEPLE! BUSH KNEW on and before 9/11!


There`s no evidence that bush knew about the attacks prior to them.None.

Plenty of evidence that he should have known and blew it.But nothing like the "truthers" claim.



slvemike4u -> RE: Obama: Taliban and al-Qaida must be stopped (3/28/2009 1:35:14 PM)

Philo defending my nations spotty foreign policy is not a position I wish to find myself in.It is a fools game...and I like to think I'm not a fool.However it would seem we have gone far a field here,this is ostensibly about the Taliban and AL-Qaeda...surely most can agree at best they are destabilizing at worst mass murderers.How are we wrong to pursue them....and how can such pursuit be linked to other issues?
(any reply to your next post will have to wait till much later,it is Sat.night and this boy must go out and play ttyl Philo...again I'm sorry for the earlier misunderstanding I have allways enjoyed reading your post's)



rulemylife -> RE: Obama: Taliban and al-Qaida must be stopped (3/28/2009 1:46:55 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

That's a ridiculous point, primarily because you're defining terrorism to meet your ends.

I'm sure many Arabs and muslims consider themselves freedom fighters while considering the United States to be the terrorists.


quote:

ORIGINAL rulemylife

I see, so the people who flew those airplanes into the towers and the Pentagon were "freedom fighters" who should have the admiration of everyone.


quote:



ORIGINAL: NorthernGent
Quite clearly, you don't see.

You define 'terrorist' to meet your ends; others will disagree with your definition of 'terrorist'. In other words, 'terrorism' is a matter of subjection, rather than a universal, absolute truth for you to utilise when it suits. To illustrate, the United States government has been accused of state terrorism; you may disagree.

'Admiration' doesn't enter into it: employ your reason, man, rather than attempt to reduce a discussion to drama and base emotion.


And I didn't even know there was more than one.

Can you imagine how silly I feel now?




Owner59 -> RE: Obama: Taliban and al-Qaida must be stopped (3/28/2009 1:52:12 PM)

We have every right legally and morally to go after al-queda and the 2 or 3 Pashtun tribes that support them.

We don`t have to defeat half of Afghanistan(the Taliban) to degrade al-queda`s ability to make trouble.

No one I know thinks we have a problem with Afghanis or their country.It`s the Arab rats(non-Afghans) operating there who attacked us that we`re shooting at and going after.

Half if not most of the trouble is in Pakistan and the policy changes take this fact into account.

And god forbid I should have to defend bush policy (as an American).I can`t.Just b/c bush and the neo-cons turned out to be an evil version of the Keystone Cops doesn`t mean Americans don`t deserve justice for 9/11.



rulemylife -> RE: Obama: Taliban and al-Qaida must be stopped (3/28/2009 2:09:53 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

Firstly, it is not 'without a doubt terrorism'. Secondly, you're repeating yourself.

a) Why aren't you holding your government to account for their actions? Assuming you want 'justice', where's the clamour to examine your government's actions?

b) Why exactly does the United States government have to interfere the affairs of Nicaragua, Brazil, Venezuala, Nicaragua, Iran, Iraq, Vietnam etc (the list is a long one)? Surely there's more chance of being left in peace in the event you leave them in peace?


Let's make this simple.

Someone breaks into your home and kills your family.

But he killed your family because of some perceived injustice you caused to him.

So, the best course of action for you is to apologize and let bygones be bygones.



rulemylife -> RE: Obama: Taliban and al-Qaida must be stopped (3/28/2009 2:22:08 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy

quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

Yes there was funding of the IRA from here.

If you knew who these many anonymous contributors were, would you want them prosecuted?

In our case, we do know.



......your syntax is a little obscure here. Thing is, it is known who, in the US, funded the IRA. They didn't do so directly, instead they funnelled money into shell charities knowing full well what the money would be used for.....then claimed tax relief on the monies given. So yes.....you (the US) do know who funded IRA terrorism. You just wont prosecute them.


I've frequented bars that had jars for IRA donations.

So, who do you prosecute? 

The bar owner who agreed to it though he might not have cared one way or another, or do you try to track down everyone that dumped their spare change into the jar.



philosophy -> RE: Obama: Taliban and al-Qaida must be stopped (3/28/2009 4:11:37 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife


I've frequented bars that had jars for IRA donations.

So, who do you prosecute? 

The bar owner who agreed to it though he might not have cared one way or another, or do you try to track down everyone that dumped their spare change into the jar.



....good question. Probably the bar owner as they could be said to be soliciting support for a terrorist organisation. However, we both know there is no political will in the US to do so, and probably no public backing if they did.
Do you see how that can be percieved as a double standard vis a vis terrorism?



rulemylife -> RE: Obama: Taliban and al-Qaida must be stopped (3/28/2009 5:21:23 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy

....good question. Probably the bar owner as they could be said to be soliciting support for a terrorist organisation. However, we both know there is no political will in the US to do so, and probably no public backing if they did.
Do you see how that can be percieved as a double standard vis a vis terrorism?


Yes, I do.

But you are trying to make the argument that this double standard means that the U.S. is not entitled to pursue and prosecute the terrorists that attacked us.



philosophy -> RE: Obama: Taliban and al-Qaida must be stopped (3/28/2009 5:26:41 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy

....good question. Probably the bar owner as they could be said to be soliciting support for a terrorist organisation. However, we both know there is no political will in the US to do so, and probably no public backing if they did.
Do you see how that can be percieved as a double standard vis a vis terrorism?


Yes, I do.

But you are trying to make the argument that this double standard means that the U.S. is not entitled to pursue and prosecute the terrorists that attacked us.



...actually i have repeatedly not made that argument. i even challenged you to point out where i did. A challenge you conspicuously refused.  What i have said, repeatedly, is that if you are going to pursue this in the name of justice it behooves you to be just to those you have wronged. If however you just want to call it revenge, have at it. However if you take the latter stance then don't try to tell the rest of the world you're standing on the moral high ground.



Politesub53 -> RE: Obama: Taliban and al-Qaida must be stopped (3/28/2009 5:29:46 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

Polite sub there was so much wrong with his many post's....how did you settle on the "sheeple" angle...lol


Mike, I was pushed for time.....[;)]

Lucy, Ribena lips.... Nice shade. [8D]



CruelNUnsual -> RE: Obama: Taliban and al-Qaida must be stopped (3/28/2009 8:28:06 PM)

Of course as soon as he got in the White House Blowbama retreated on his vow to get bin-Laden..as if he ever intended to.



Lorr47 -> RE: Obama: Taliban and al-Qaida must be stopped (3/28/2009 9:08:02 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

~FR~
 
Given the number of troops we have deployed half-way around the world in Afganistan and Iraq, at great cost and risk to life, I sometimes have to wonder how the benefit of that to our national security would compare with the benefit of having that many additional personnel on our borders and at our ports of entry instead.
 
K.
 
 

 


Yes!  Well stated. And, it has little to do with "isolationism" but rather picking  the best place to defend ourselves. Have we really accomplished much invading the middle east? On the other hand if we used personnel properly and kept track of information such as who is learning to fly, omitting  taking off or landing, would we have been more secure?  England has busted a couple of rings.  Where?  At home. We lashed out after 9/11 but we may have been better off in the long run to build our defenses. (Off topic Petraious (sic) said Friday that Afghanistan will be easier because we like the Afghan people whereas we disliked the Iraqi people.  For personal reasons I have never warmed up to the Iraqis but I have never heard a person in authority say it openly.)



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