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RE: Earth Hour - 3/29/2009 9:50:21 AM   
chiaThePet


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quote:

ORIGINAL: sirsholly

your thought process is frightening



I wake up in the dark and the lambs are screaming.

I'd turn on a light, but noooooooooo, gotta save the planet.

chia* (the pet)


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RE: Earth Hour - 3/29/2009 10:21:23 AM   
TheHeretic


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quote:

ORIGINAL: domiguy


Global warming is real and at this particular moment "we" are the cause.  




           I'll go right along with the first part of your statement, DG. 

          Tell me more about how we are causing the climate change on Mars and Jupiter.  Did you know the Great Red Spot is shrinking?  Did my SUV do that?

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RE: Earth Hour - 3/29/2009 10:38:08 AM   
CruelNUnsual


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

quote:

ORIGINAL: domiguy


Global warming is real and at this particular moment "we" are the cause.  




          I'll go right along with the first part of your statement, DG. 

         Tell me more about how we are causing the climate change on Mars and Jupiter.  Did you know the Great Red Spot is shrinking?  Did my SUV do that?


Only if your SUV is dark colored.

(If you dont get that reference the Ca Air Standard Boards proposed banning dark colored cars. Though wrt Mars and Jupiter it would be the more reflective light colored cars causing their warming, So if you have a favorite Martian, consider a black SUV.)

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RE: Earth Hour - 3/29/2009 10:54:28 AM   
domiguy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: CruelNUnsual

"Arctic sea ice went about 5.5 to 7 million square kilometers in just one year. If this trend continues, Arctic sea ice will cover every ocean and sea and lake in less than 17 years"


What is the source of this info?  I have read reports about the ice mass of Antarctica.  Would like to know where this came from...

< Message edited by domiguy -- 3/29/2009 10:56:15 AM >


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RE: Earth Hour - 3/29/2009 10:54:48 AM   
TheHeretic


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       I live in the desert, Crue.  My refusal to own a dark-colored vehicle, or even one with a dark interior has nothing to do with planet saving.  It's all about me, and how hot it is when I get in at 5:00 p.m.

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RE: Earth Hour - 3/29/2009 11:01:46 AM   
seashore


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quote:

But I believe.  It only makes sense. Jesus doesn't make sense. Ghosts they don't make sense.  No-limit subs make little sense.  Global warming resonates as being factual.  Walmart makes sense if you want to save some dinero. Global warming seems to be real. The scientists can now determine all the variants that lead to our weather and temp patterns.  The only thing unaccounted for is the additional Co2 that is currently in our atmospere which is due to man.   We....No, "you" are personally responsible...I hate you for being the cause of global warming.  Maybe you should drink your cocktails with less ice?

Anyways, it's real. It's happening and it is coming soon to a shoreline near you.



It is nice when domiguy is on board about something but it doesnt mean he know's what he says. Exploiting third world countries so fat white folks can have things (and especially the ones at top who skim off most of the profit) is but one example of something not making sense.

There are many real things going on. Maybe the next stop is your house.

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Profile   Post #: 46
RE: Earth Hour - 3/29/2009 11:35:36 AM   
CruelNUnsual


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quote:

ORIGINAL: domiguy

quote:

ORIGINAL: CruelNUnsual

"Arctic sea ice went about 5.5 to 7 million square kilometers in just one year. If this trend continues, Arctic sea ice will cover every ocean and sea and lake in less than 17 years"


What is the source of this info?  I have read reports about the ice mass of Antarctica.  Would like to know where this came from...


The ice extent data is all over the place, heres one

http://www.dailytech.com/Article.aspx?newsid=13834

The 17 years is a facetious geometric progression of the one year growth, akin to the manure-math of "Inconvenient Truth".

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RE: Earth Hour - 3/29/2009 11:43:20 AM   
CruelNUnsual


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

      I live in the desert, Crue.  My refusal to own a dark-colored vehicle, or even one with a dark interior has nothing to do with planet saving.  It's all about me, and how hot it is when I get in at 5:00 p.m.


That is the reasoning behind the Ca Air Standards Board proposal. Dark=higher internal temperatures=higher air conditioning use=bigger carbon footprint.

However, studies have shown that the difference in internal temperatures between light and dark cars is about 5 degrees, which is minimal wrt air conditioning load. It also ignores the impact on atmospheric temperatures of more reflective paint. It is akin to the old physics exam question: If your refrigerator cools 5 cubic feet 1 degree in 10 minutes and you put it in a sealed room and open the door, how long will it take to cool 30 cubic feet 1 degree?

answer should be obvious, and requires no math.

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Profile   Post #: 48
RE: Earth Hour - 3/29/2009 1:59:32 PM   
Crush


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Al Gore leaves the lights on during "Earth Hour"

http://politics.nashvillepost.com/2009/03/29/al-gore-will-leave-the-lights-on-for-ya/




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RE: Earth Hour - 3/29/2009 2:10:51 PM   
CruelNUnsual


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Crush

Al Gore leaves the lights on during "Earth Hour"

http://politics.nashvillepost.com/2009/03/29/al-gore-will-leave-the-lights-on-for-ya/





not to worry, he bought $1,000 worth of carbon offsets from himself to cover it.

Freeman Dyson will get a kick out of it though. (See todays NYT Magazine section)

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RE: Earth Hour - 3/29/2009 8:39:20 PM   
FangsNfeet


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Pet and I had the lights off for more than one hour. We like having the lights off as much as possible when we're at home together.

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Profile   Post #: 51
RE: Earth Hour - 3/30/2009 11:27:15 AM   
domiguy


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http://www.slate.com/id/2210833/

Is the Cryosphere Crying Wolf?
What Arctic sea-ice levels can tell us about global warming.
By Nina Shen Rastogi
Posted Tuesday, Feb. 10, 2009, at 7:01 AM ET
What's going on with Arctic sea ice? First I heard that it's all melting away, and that this was an early warning sign of global warming on the march. Now I'm hearing that Arctic ice levels have miraculously rebounded. Which is it? And if it's true that sea ice is growing, does that mean we can stop worrying about global warming?

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An iceberg in the north Atlantic OceanFor the past month or so, news has been circulating around the Internet that global levels of sea ice—i.e., the floating ice that forms on top of ocean water—are back to where they were in 1979. In particular, Arctic sea ice, which was supposed to be melting rapidly, reportedly "rebounded" in 2008. This argument, which originated on the Website Daily Tech, rests in large part on the reported "rebounding" of Arctic sea ice in 2008 and is being held up by climate-change contrarians as a "gotcha" to Al Gore-ish Chicken Littles. Scientists who study the cryosphere, however, say that the latest data on sea ice does nothing to refute global warming—unless you willfully misread it.

Before we go on, let's start with Sea Ice 101. Millions of square miles of the stuff blanket both the Arctic Ocean and Southern (aka Antarctic) Ocean, with large swathes of it melting away each summer and refreezing in the winter. Sea ice can be measured in terms of its thickness and its extent—the total area of ocean covered by at least a 15 percent concentration of ice.


Arctic sea ice behaves very differently from its Antarctic brethren, largely because the two regions' geographies are so different. Arctic sea ice tends to get most of the attention from pundits and scientists because its levels are changing more rapidly, particularly in the summer. Over the past 30 years, the ice cover that remains at the end of the melt season has dropped 11.1 percent per decade—or about 915,000 square miles every 10 years—relative to seasonal averages from 1979 to 2000. As you may recall from various news reports, the summer of 2007 was a particularly dire one, as Arctic sea ice reached the lowest minimum extent ever recorded. Last year wasn't far behind.

Antarctic sea ice, on the other hand, hasn't exhibited much change—in fact, its annual extent has actually been increasing a little, by about 0.8 percent per decade. (As Brendan I. Koerner stated in this previous Green Lantern, no one really knows why this is the case—although it may actually be a surprising effect of rising temperatures in the area.)

Now, let's go back to the Daily Tech article. It states: "Earlier this year, predictions were rife that the North Pole could melt entirely in 2008. Instead, the Arctic ice saw a substantial recovery." First of all, the predictions that the article refers to were in regard to summer sea ice—no one is claiming that the Arctic will see ice-free Christmases anytime soon. Also, the scientific community isn't nearly as unified as the article suggests; predictions as to when those watery Arctic summers might commence range anywhere from 2013 to 2100. Some scientists said it was possible that the summer of 2008 would be ice-free, but those statements weren't made as decisively as the Daily Tech piece asserts.

As for the "substantial recovery" claim—well, sea ice always "recovers" in the winter, in the sense that it grows back after it melts. And, yes, September 2008 did show more ice than September 2007—but the Lantern would argue that going from the worst summer on record to the second-worst is nothing to crow about.

The period between September and December 2008—the first months of the freezing season—did see more rapid growth than usual. The Daily Tech piece is correct in chalking that growth up, in part, to the fact that this new ice had less insulating snow cover. (Less snow cover means more exposure to cold air temperatures.) Recent data suggest, however, that this growth has slowed. January 2009 showed the sixth-lowest Arctic extent on record for any January since 1979, and right now, with about a month left in the 2008-2009 freezing season, Arctic ice extent is lagging well below 1979-2000 seasonal averages. Plus, the Arctic ice pack as a whole is much younger and thinner than it was decades ago, meaning large areas are vulnerable to melting out in the summer.

The "miraculous recovery" argument makes the classic mistake of confusing short-term changes with long-term trends. The rate at which sea ice melts or freezes is determined by a complex mix of variables: not just atmospheric temperature but also wind patterns, ocean currents, saline levels, and the amount of open water surrounding the ice. So looking at a single data point is bound to skew your analysis if you ignore the clear and persistent long-term changes, as this blog post wittily demonstrates.

The Daily Tech piece also sows confusion about the meaning of global ice levels. In a global-warming scenario, it's possible that Antarctic sea ice might rise as Arctic sea ice plummets. Looking at the combined ice area of both regions doesn't tell us much about the effects of greenhouse-gas emissions, as this response to the Daily Tech item—written by the scientists whose data the piece cites—explains.

But the North Pole is so far away, you say. Why should I care that the ice up there is melting? Well, besides the fact that our friends the polar bears live on those ice floes, the loss of sea ice means that the ocean gets warmer. Highly reflective sea ice bounces most solar radiation back into space, while darker ocean water absorbs it. Not only do higher water temperatures cause even more sea ice to melt (a classic example of a positive feedback loop), but it may also speed the melting of the Arctic permafrost, releasing tons of methane and carbon dioxide along the way. Scientists are still trying to figure out what the impacts of melting polar ice will be on the middle latitudes, but they may range from reduced rainfall in the American West to increased winter precipitation in Europe.

The most immediate and visible effect, though, might be a political one. As summer ice rapidly declines in the Arctic, valuable shipping routes are beginning to open up, as is the seabed itself, with its tantalizing promise of vast untapped resources—perhaps as much as 90 billion barrels of oil and 1.7 trillion cubic feet of natural gas reserves. Russia has already begun rattling its sabers in an attempt to claim the territory, and other nations, such as Canada and the United States, are quickly following suit. The environmental impact of drilling in the Arctic? Well, that's a topic for another column.


----------------------------------------

If anyone would actually spend the time to do any type of research you would find a number of credible sites and reports refuting the Daily Techs findings....But again, I have found that this is not the "rights" strong suit. I have found this is why the "right" enjoys watching Fox. they are lazy. They don't like to have their views questioned. They, on the whole, tend to be incredibly closed minded folks.



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RE: Earth Hour - 3/30/2009 11:34:39 AM   
CruelNUnsual


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quote:

ORIGINAL: domiguy


. Also, the scientific community isn't nearly as unified as the article suggests; predictions as to when those watery Arctic summers might commence range anywhere from 2013 to 2100.



Translation: the scientific community doesnt know when or why. Read Freeman Dyson, far from a "right wing" non-thinker.

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RE: Earth Hour - 3/30/2009 11:44:51 AM   
heartcream


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quote:

If anyone would actually spend the time to do any type of research you would find a number of credible sites and reports refuting the Daily Techs findings....But again, I have found that this is not the "rights" strong suit. I have found this is why the "right" enjoys watching Fox. they are lazy. They don't like to have their views questioned. They, on the whole, tend to be incredibly closed minded folks.


We all have things we care about, resonate with, feel strongly about. Others may not give a flying shit about the same things doesnt make it any less vital though does it?



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RE: Earth Hour - 3/30/2009 11:48:34 AM   
domiguy


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You are looking at one report and trying to debunk global warming based upon the article written in "The Daily Tech."

Read what is happening to the Greenland ice sheet...Or the polar caps.

I find you not to be worthy of any more of my time. If you found a puddle that was frozen in your back yard you would you it as a base to refute global warming. You don't really care whether it is happening or not. You just hate the "messenger" to such an extreme that you could care less about the actual message that is promoted.

It casts you in an extremely poor light that you are unable to see this. It is kind of sad that there are so many that will not allow themselves to see the world as it is...Only because it is in contrast to their political views....Rather pathetic.



< Message edited by domiguy -- 3/30/2009 11:49:46 AM >


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RE: Earth Hour - 3/30/2009 11:55:20 AM   
CruelNUnsual


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quote:

ORIGINAL: domiguy

You are looking at one report and trying to debunk global warming based upon the article written in "The Daily Tech."

Read what is happening to the Greenland ice sheet...Or the polar caps.

I find you not to be worthy of any more of my time. If you found a puddle that was frozen in your back yard you would you it as a base to refute global warming. You don't really care whether it is happening or not. You just hate the "messenger" to such an extreme that you could care less about the actual message that is promoted.

It casts you in an extremely poor light that you are unable to see this. It is kind of sad that there are so many that will not allow themselves to see the world as it is...Only because it is in contrast to their political views....Rather pathetic.




If I linked every article or book Ive read on the topic it be considered flooding the board. Insinuating that I am trying to debunk anything based on "one article" is insulting and disingenuous.

To paraphrase Freeman Dyson, computer models are not science...when there is repeatable experimental data and not the religious fervor of a political movement, I'm more than ready to listen.

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RE: Earth Hour - 3/30/2009 12:06:09 PM   
domiguy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: CruelNUnsual


If I linked every article or book Ive read on the topic it be considered flooding the board. Insinuating that I am trying to debunk anything based on "one article" is insulting and disingenuous.

To paraphrase Freeman Dyson, computer models are not science...when there is repeatable experimental data and not the religious fervor of a political movement, I'm more than ready to listen.


Dyson is 85 years old. His currrent views have brought him the attention that has always longed for. Dyson mightt live long enough to see Greenland be ice free.

He yells at the neighborhood kids, "Get off of my lawn." Crotchety old man.

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RE: Earth Hour - 3/30/2009 12:18:48 PM   
CruelNUnsual


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quote:

ORIGINAL: domiguy


quote:

ORIGINAL: CruelNUnsual


If I linked every article or book Ive read on the topic it be considered flooding the board. Insinuating that I am trying to debunk anything based on "one article" is insulting and disingenuous.

To paraphrase Freeman Dyson, computer models are not science...when there is repeatable experimental data and not the religious fervor of a political movement, I'm more than ready to listen.


Dyson is 85 years old. His currrent views have brought him the attention that has always longed for. Dyson mightt live long enough to see Greenland be ice free.

He yells at the neighborhood kids, "Get off of my lawn." Crotchety old man.


Dyson was and is one of the most brilliant men alive. the picture of him as "crotchety old man" is ad hominen by those who couldn't compete with him in a debate that lasted more than 3 seconds.

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RE: Earth Hour - 3/30/2009 12:25:12 PM   
LaTigresse


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I honestly hadn't heard of it until now. Clueless soul that I am. I am trying to remember what I was doing at that time.

I think I was watching "Milk" while playing mahjong on the computer. Probably had one lamp on. I did have the heat turned down and was wrapped in a big soft blanket though!

Just doing my part.........


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My twisted, self deprecating, sense of humour, finds alot to laugh about, in your lack of one!

Just because you are well educated, articulate, and can use big, fancy words, properly........does not mean you are right!

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Profile   Post #: 59
RE: Earth Hour - 3/30/2009 1:32:17 PM   
Crush


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Was it a "Snuggie" LaTigresse?



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