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RE: When Lies hurt - 3/31/2009 3:55:13 AM   
Focus50


Posts: 3962
Joined: 12/28/2004
From: Newcastle, Australia
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LATEXBABY64

Some people lie to spare peoples feelings. Is that ok  Other lie and to cover up they have not been caught  this happens with doms subs dommes . Some people lie to get away with things and even make a up a story to support it.. Some people are compulsive liars.  out of habit . Being in the lifestyle is oke to lie to your other. what should do when you catch your partner in a lie how far will you go to let them know they messed up. 

Hence we differentiate between "white lies" and "black lies"....
 
White lies are designed to protect whereas black lies are meant to deceive.  All can be hurtful, of course, but the betrayal of a black lie hurts exponentially more than the insult of a white lie....
 
Whether or not it's "ok" can only be decided by the person's intent and how it's received.  Talking mostly white lies here....
 
Focus.

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Profile   Post #: 21
RE: When Lies hurt - 3/31/2009 5:30:48 AM   
eyesopened


Posts: 2798
Joined: 6/12/2006
From: Tampa, FL
Status: offline 		I cannot think of a time or a situation when a lie is okay.

There are ways to say the truth without hurting people's feelings, but even with that, I cannot be responsible for everybody's feelings either.

Q. Do these jeans make my ass look big?  (and if they do...)
A. I think a different cut would suit you better.

Q. How many partners have you had?
A.  I have never kept a scorecard on relationships and I promise I won't keep a scorecard with this relationship.

I only promise what I know I can keep.  I don't lie, it is abhorrent to me.  If I can't be honest and kind then I would have to believe that cruelty is the default and I don't want my world to be like that. I would never gush or pretend to like something I do not.  Again, honesty and kindness are not mutually exclusive.  A white lie is a lie and for me is unacceptable.

< Message edited by eyesopened -- 3/31/2009 5:34:23 AM >

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RE: When Lies hurt - 3/31/2009 5:40:56 AM   
marie2


Posts: 1690
Joined: 11/4/2008
From: Jersey
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: eyesopened

I cannot think of a time or a situation when a lie is okay.

There are ways to say the truth without hurting people's feelings, but even with that, I cannot be responsible for everybody's feelings either.

Q. Do these jeans make my ass look big?  (and if they do...)
A. I think a different cut would suit you better.

Q. How many partners have you had?
A.  I have never kept a scorecard on relationships and I promise I won't keep a scorecard with this relationship.

I only promise what I know I can keep.  I don't lie, it is abhorrent to me.  If I can't be honest and kind then I would have to believe that cruelty is the default and I don't want my world to be like that. I would never gush or pretend to like something I do not.  Again, honesty and kindness are not mutually exclusive.  A white lie is a lie and for me is unacceptable.


Those examples aren't examples of honesty.  They're examples of avoidance, which to me, would be more frustrating than hearing an ugly truth, especially if it was coming from someone that I'm close to, or someone whose opinion I value.

Finding creative ways to avoid giving someone an honest answer, so that you can say you've never lied, is no more honorable than actually bullshitting someone.  In fact, it IS just another form of bullshit.

< Message edited by marie2 -- 3/31/2009 5:44:03 AM >

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RE: When Lies hurt - 3/31/2009 7:25:58 AM   
eyesopened


Posts: 2798
Joined: 6/12/2006
From: Tampa, FL
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: marie2

quote:

ORIGINAL: eyesopened

I cannot think of a time or a situation when a lie is okay.

There are ways to say the truth without hurting people's feelings, but even with that, I cannot be responsible for everybody's feelings either.

Q. Do these jeans make my ass look big?  (and if they do...)
A. I think a different cut would suit you better.

Q. How many partners have you had?
A.  I have never kept a scorecard on relationships and I promise I won't keep a scorecard with this relationship.

I only promise what I know I can keep.  I don't lie, it is abhorrent to me.  If I can't be honest and kind then I would have to believe that cruelty is the default and I don't want my world to be like that. I would never gush or pretend to like something I do not.  Again, honesty and kindness are not mutually exclusive.  A white lie is a lie and for me is unacceptable.


Those examples aren't examples of honesty.  They're examples of avoidance, which to me, would be more frustrating than hearing an ugly truth, especially if it was coming from someone that I'm close to, or someone whose opinion I value.

Finding creative ways to avoid giving someone an honest answer, so that you can say you've never lied, is no more honorable than actually bullshitting someone.  In fact, it IS just another form of bullshit.


Yes, I suppose you are right that avoidance is another form of dishonesty.  Thank you for pointing that out.  I wasn't claiming honor as I expect none, especially on these boards.

< Message edited by eyesopened -- 3/31/2009 7:26:42 AM >

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Proudly owned by InkedMaster. He is the one i obey, serve, honor and love.

No one is honored for what they've received. Honor is the reward for what has been given.

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Profile   Post #: 24
RE: When Lies hurt - 3/31/2009 7:42:44 AM   
CreativeDominant


Posts: 11032
Joined: 3/11/2006
Status: offline 		There are all kinds of ways to lie.  Avoidance is one, omission is another, commission is yet another.  There are black lies and white lies. 

I try my best to be honest while knowing that there are going to be those times when I tell a white lie or I...as marie put it...B.S. someone.  I look at the intent behind it and the situation around it.  Some would say that not telling someone you are dealing with EVERY last little detail about the rest of your everyday life, including dealings with others is lying.  ~shrugs~  But is it really?  Or is it possible that I may be at a point in my relationship with you that I don't feel that everything I do elsewhere is your business?  Now, I have learned the hard way in these situations that if asked, the best thing to do is be honest while still being considerate...even if it hurts the other person.  Some would say that I am lying by not volunteering the information, I say "if you want to know, ask..but be prepared for the answer you get...whether it is the truth of what I am doing elsewhere OR the truth of "you know, at this point in our relationship, I don't really feel that what I do when I am not spending time with you is any of your business other than in a general manner".

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Profile   Post #: 25
RE: When Lies hurt - 3/31/2009 8:13:13 AM   
marie2


Posts: 1690
Joined: 11/4/2008
From: Jersey
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: eyesopened

Yes, I suppose you are right that avoidance is another form of dishonesty.  Thank you for pointing that out.  I wasn't claiming honor as I expect none, especially on these boards.


Well, it was more of a general "you" in my statement.  I don't know you personally, and I wasn't making a judgement call about whether you  personally contain honor.  I should have used the term "one" instead of "you".   I was actually refering to the examples that you offered and taking that thought a step further. 

Anyway I'm sure we've all done such things at one time or another in an attempt to avoid something uncomfortable.  I think we (generic) sometimes do those things without even being consciously aware of it.  And I think it's a natural inclination for most people at one time or another to clear their conscious of  having been dishonest by convincing themselves that they never actually told a direct lie.

(in reply to eyesopened)
Profile   Post #: 26
RE: When Lies hurt - 3/31/2009 8:15:09 AM   
Sexycelticlady


Posts: 112
Joined: 7/20/2008
Status: offline 		Lying is immoral, it interfers with another persons ability to think rationally and objectively. If you tell a white lie to save someone's feelings it can cause a much greater harm when the truth is eventually discovered (and it usually is) than telling the person the truth in the first place. The truth does not necessarily mean you have to put it bluntly or in a nasty manner, you can be kind in telling the truth when you know it will be a painful one.
 

(in reply to CreativeDominant)
Profile   Post #: 27
RE: When Lies hurt - 3/31/2009 8:53:00 AM   
LATEXBABY64


Posts: 2107
Joined: 4/8/2004
Status: offline 		very well said   apart of being human  is apart of knowing who you are what is right and wrong   it is when we blur them together life becomes very much a empty an void
I find that being honest  always comes out better  on either side of the fence  I heard a story once when a dom made a sub to lie to her boyfriend. I think this is a story that everyone had heard maybe through.  You can only guess what happen.  A lot of great imput

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Profile   Post #: 28
RE: When Lies hurt - 3/31/2009 12:11:55 PM   
CreativeDominant


Posts: 11032
Joined: 3/11/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Sexycelticlady

Lying is immoral, it interfers with another persons ability to think rationally and objectively. If you tell a white lie to save someone's feelings it can cause a much greater harm when the truth is eventually discovered (and it usually is) than telling the person the truth in the first place. The truth does not necessarily mean you have to put it bluntly or in a nasty manner, you can be kind in telling the truth when you know it will be a painful one.

So is what we do...in some people's eyes.  The idea that a man/woman would hit another man/woman for pleasure gets some people allllllllll outraged.  In their eyes, tis abuse.
Don't get me wrong...I have morals and I have standards.  My morals and standards are pretty clear to anyone who spends time with me.  I won't lie to you for fun and I won't look you in the face and lie to you when you've asked me a direct question.  But I will sometimes tell someone when they have asked me something that they do not have the right to ask me what they've asked.  Of course, in stating so here on the boards, you can rest assured that in getting to know someone in person that  I tell them how I do things so there is no surprise when they ask me something and I choose to give them that answer or something fuller.
e.g.:  I've just concluded a phone call with my daughter that I have stepped out of the room to take while spending a first weekend with a submissive.  I step back into the room and she asks me what I was speaking to my daughter about.  I reply "I'[m sorry...we are not close enough yet for that to be any of your business". 
e.g.:  I've spent an hour on the phone speaking with a submissive friend of 9 years standing.  During this conversation, I've flirted...outrageously in several instances.  A submissive who I am getting to know and am speaking with on the phone a couple of days later asks me if I've been speaking with other submissives lately.  I say "yes".  She asks what these conversations were about.  I state...since I have not yet seen this lady but have flirted with her and plans are firming up for a first meet though not set yet...that the conversation was about general catching-up.  

Rude or evasive in the first case?  Lying by avoidance in the second case?  Depends on your point of view, I guess.  But those who've read my profile and have known me longer than 6 months know the deeper part of me and why I would answer these ways and they either get it and accept it or they don't.

(in reply to Sexycelticlady)
Profile   Post #: 29
RE: When Lies hurt - 3/31/2009 12:33:21 PM   
agirl


Posts: 4530
Joined: 6/14/2004
Status: offline 		What is right or wrong for me, is up to me. And it IS blurred in lots of ways. Any honesty is reserved for where I apply it, in my own way, with my own values. I'm not very interested in how other people interpret it.

agirl

(in reply to LATEXBABY64)
Profile   Post #: 30
RE: When Lies hurt - 3/31/2009 2:40:34 PM   
beargonewild


Posts: 22716
Joined: 5/7/2007
Status: offline 		So ideally, we all should speak the truth even if it is blunt, cutting, and straight to the point without regarding the other person's feeling or taking into consideration that other person is feelings at all? Because after reading through this post, that is the gist of what most are saying. I mean, never mind the context a white lie is given even if no malicious intent was intended. And just for the record...I only lie when it is convenient and it is never convenient.


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Profile   Post #: 31
RE: When Lies hurt - 3/31/2009 3:52:58 PM   
DomImus


Posts: 2004
Joined: 3/17/2009
Status: offline 		Dodging a question with a vague answer isn't the same as an outright lie but it's still not being honest. It's just spin that makes you feel better about not having told an outright lie.

(in reply to eyesopened)
Profile   Post #: 32
RE: When Lies hurt - 3/31/2009 7:06:59 PM   
LATEXBABY64


Posts: 2107
Joined: 4/8/2004
Status: offline 		hwo about when you catch someone in the act of a lie and they play it off as being the truth but is still a lie   how messed up is that :?

(in reply to DomImus)
Profile   Post #: 33
RE: When Lies hurt - 3/31/2009 7:16:33 PM   
JovialSadist


Posts: 20
Joined: 3/14/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kiwisub12

If they are the do-er, not the do-ee, then lying about experience on the "I have a lot of experience" end, would seem to be a dangerous lie.  Especially if you are going to entrust your hide to their lack of experience.
So yes, that would be problem with me - especially if i found out the lie because of the lack of skill in doing something to my delicate bod!!!!

and then i would want to know why on earth they thought they had to lie.




I have to agree with Kiwisub... Putting someone in danger because you don't want to be looked upon as inexperienced is the best way to show you are inexperienced. The worst thing in the world is to cause harm to someone because your ego is bigger than your knowledge. 

(in reply to kiwisub12)
Profile   Post #: 34
RE: When Lies hurt - 4/1/2009 1:37:58 AM   
Focus50


Posts: 3962
Joined: 12/28/2004
From: Newcastle, Australia
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Sexycelticlady

Lying is immoral, it interfers with another persons ability to think rationally and objectively. If you tell a white lie to save someone's feelings it can cause a much greater harm when the truth is eventually discovered (and it usually is) than telling the person the truth in the first place. The truth does not necessarily mean you have to put it bluntly or in a nasty manner, you can be kind in telling the truth when you know it will be a painful one. 

Frankly, I think one of the reasons white lies are prevalent is because too many people simply don't handle the truth nearly as well as you're implying.  Sure, in hindsight they say they would've preferred the whole ugly truth at the time but that seems to be more about present day point scoring and moral posturing than the evidence of past reactions. 
 
And putting the truth without being blunt about it?  There's a juggling act worth paying money to behold - small wonder most just dodge the whole drama with a white lie....  Now I'm not justifying white lies, merely pointing out that real life rarely equates to moral and philosophical *theory*. 
 
Telling a white lie in the hope of not being found out vs knowing you WILL hurt the feelings of someone you care about?  That is NOT a "slam-dunk" choice, esp if it's something inconsequential - which is where most arguments seem to start....  Do I look fat in this?  How do you answer that without coming off blunt or nasty?  Or even worse; you hesitate....  Arrggghhhh!!!!!  lol
 
Focus.

_____________________________

Never underestimate the persuasive power of stupid people in large groups. <unknown>

Your food is for eating, not torturing. <my mum> (Errm, when I was a kid)

(in reply to Sexycelticlady)
Profile   Post #: 35
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