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RE: G20 summit protests in London - 4/2/2009 9:56:17 AM   
Marc2b


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quote:

Especially when it might upset the plutocracy. The only 'peacable assembly for a redress of our grievances' allowed now...is lobbying.


The key word there is “peaceable.”  There is nothing peaceable about the London protests (these kind of protest very rarely are).  Actual peaceable protests are allowed.  There are other ways as well.  Ever hear of a strike?  We live in a world of mass, virtually instant, communication so there are many other means to get one’s message out.  Then there is there really radical notion of actual helping those around you but, of course, that will take time away from prancing around the street acting like a drunken idiot.

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RE: G20 summit protests in London - 4/2/2009 10:05:57 AM   
subfever


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quote:

So true. It seems the masses always turn on each other (with encouragement from those in power, of course) before they, if ever, turn on the true source of oppression.


You've made some interesting contributions to this thread. Please share with us your perception of the true source of oppression.

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RE: G20 summit protests in London - 4/2/2009 10:09:55 AM   
kittinSol


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Marc2b

quote:

Especially when it might upset the plutocracy. The only 'peacable assembly for a redress of our grievances' allowed now...is lobbying.


The key word there is “peaceable.”  There is nothing peaceable about the London protests (these kind of protest very rarely are).  Actual peaceable protests are allowed.  There are other ways as well.  Ever hear of a strike?  We live in a world of mass, virtually instant, communication so there are many other means to get one’s message out.  Then there is there really radical notion of actual helping those around you but, of course, that will take time away from prancing around the street acting like a drunken idiot.


You think a few Tweets would have the same effect, do you? Human beings congregate: it's what we do as a specie. It's natural that they should need to coalesce to demonstrate physically - and your disapproval only validates their actions ;-p .  

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RE: G20 summit protests in London - 4/2/2009 10:18:43 AM   
awmslave


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Status: offline 		From the BBC article:
Stuart Fraser, from the City of London Corporation, said Wednesday's security operation was a success "The high cost [of the security operation] is the price of democracy," he added.
***
I would rather say it is the price of running the grand corporate-globalism scam operation (sometimes called "neoliberal free market economy").

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RE: G20 summit protests in London - 4/2/2009 10:19:52 AM   
subfever


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Marc2b

quote:

Especially when it might upset the plutocracy. The only 'peacable assembly for a redress of our grievances' allowed now...is lobbying.


The key word there is “peaceable.”  There is nothing peaceable about the London protests (these kind of protest very rarely are).  Actual peaceable protests are allowed.  There are other ways as well.  Ever hear of a strike?  We live in a world of mass, virtually instant, communication so there are many other means to get one’s message out.  Then there is there really radical notion of actual helping those around you but, of course, that will take time away from prancing around the street acting like a drunken idiot.


I agree that peaceable is key. Why give the opposition such an easy opportunity to make your position look bad?

In fact, this is so obvious, that I can't help but wonder if some of those behaving like lunatics are just ringers put in place by the opposition, just to keep any potential interest of the masses deflected.



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RE: G20 summit protests in London - 4/2/2009 10:30:17 AM   
subfever


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quote:

It will only come when people stop blaming each other and start working with each other to overcome the differences.


And when people start replacing emotion with logic.

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RE: G20 summit protests in London - 4/2/2009 10:35:46 AM   
MissMorrigan


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The real question should be, how can you intelligently use your voice and assert yourself without falling into the trap of violence?  I would consider any movement that resulted in change brought about by the use of violence to be a hollow victory. It is behaving no better than those seeking to oppress a people in the first place. There is only one other breed of animal that is as harmful as the violent protestor, that's the one that does nothing at all - so we have no argument on that score.

People will always resort to using violence as a means of overcoming something they don't either understand or because they have no interest in bringing about a mutually beneficial and peaceful solution, ie their agenda is to bring about change but at the price of exacting retribution.

In reference to the Suffragettes.Sure they played a major hand in bringing about the right to vote for women, but the use of violence damaged their cause and likely prolonged the period for this to happen. There is nothing indicated in history that shows the vote couldn't have been achieved through alternative measures. I'll grant you that it gained them notoriety, but I'm sure you'll agree that some deaths and acts of violence didn't need to be met in order to get their voices heard. There's no greater power than the solidarity of a movement of people working together to bring about change.

As for demonstrating physically - a physical demonstration doesn't necessarily equate to a violent demonstration. There are many historic references to protests from people the world over who have gained public respect and initiated change without instigating violence - despite violence being used on them. 

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RE: G20 summit protests in London - 4/2/2009 10:40:45 AM   
NorthernGent


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Marc2b

The key word there is “peaceable.”  There is nothing peaceable about the London protests (these kind of protest very rarely are). 



Nonsense. As per usual, the vast majority of protestors abided by the law; as per usual, the violent tiny minority grab the headlines, which of course is orchestrated...."look at them, they're lunatics"....all part of discrediting a political idea. You may not agree with them. I find it hard to empathise with anyone who lives in the comfort of Middle Class surburbia 350 days of the year and comes out to 'protest' every now and again (and you can bet your life that the vast majority of those protestors are from a Middle Class background), though we all identify with some cause or another.


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RE: G20 summit protests in London - 4/2/2009 10:40:51 AM   
Marc2b


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quote:

You think a few Tweets would have the same effect, do you? Human beings congregate: it's what we do as a specie. It's natural that they should need to coalesce to demonstrate physically - and your disapproval only validates their actions ;-p .


I thought you didn’t believe in human nature.  It most certainly is a part of human nature to coalesce into groups (we are a tribal species, after all) but we also have intellect as well as instincts and that is what these demonstrations ultimately are about – people exercising there need for an adrenaline rush (and violence and hatred are such a great adrenaline rush) and to demonstrate their supposed moral superiority.  I just think that it would be a better idea if people channeled those energies into something creative rather than destructive.

A hypothetical situation:

You have several rural families living near you that are poor and are having a hard time affording groceries.

Response number one:  You and others pool your money and buy seeds and then teach these people how to plant home gardens and grow their own vegetables. 

Response number two:  Prance around in the street like a drunken idiot smashing windows and hurling invective at people you don’t even know.

Now, which of these two responses do you think is more likely to feed a hungry person?

This is what I do not understand.  Why you and others insist that the solution to problems is to demand that the government force other people to take action rather than taking action yourself. 

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RE: G20 summit protests in London - 4/2/2009 10:44:16 AM   
Marc2b


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quote:

I agree that peaceable is key. Why give the opposition such an easy opportunity to make your position look bad?

In fact, this is so obvious, that I can't help but wonder if some of those behaving like lunatics are just ringers put in place by the opposition, just to keep any potential interest of the masses deflected.


Paranoia will get you no where.  History has demonstrated the use of agent provocateurs but these radical groups also have a demonstrated history of violence.

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RE: G20 summit protests in London - 4/2/2009 10:48:26 AM   
kittinSol


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Status: offline 		Again, your emotions are taking over Marc. You come across as really angry, and yet these protests should trike a chord with you: they're against the bailout  .

The majority of the people that are out on the streets are peaceful. A minority makes all the noise, and that's what the media and people like yourself seize upon. I'm surprised you are so easily manipulated.

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RE: G20 summit protests in London - 4/2/2009 10:51:56 AM   
Marc2b


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quote:

Nonsense. As per usual, the vast majority of protestors abided by the law; as per usual, the violent tiny minority grab the headlines, which of course is orchestrated...."look at them, they're lunatics"....all part of discrediting a political idea. You may not agree with them. I find it hard to empathise with anyone who lives in the comfort of Middle Class surburbia 350 days of the year and comes out to 'protest' every now and again (and you can bet your life that the vast majority of those protestors are from a Middle Class background), though we all identify with some cause or another.


Somehow I knew you were going to come along when I wrote that.  The point is, violence is almost always a part of these protests and while I’ll grant that the violent protestors are a minority (the word “Tiny” is awfully relative) the more peaceable majority are still (in my opinion) wasting their time with their silly chants when they could be doing something more productive.    

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RE: G20 summit protests in London - 4/2/2009 10:56:29 AM   
kittinSol


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Status: offline 		How middle-class of you. You know, if it weren't for demonstrations and barricades, the world wouldn't be what it is today. There comes a time when people have to demonstrate in order to show their lords and masters the sheer force of their disapproval. Quietly bringing some meals on wheels to an old lady just won't have the same impact, if you're trying to make a political point. Besides... you're not in London, so I really don't see what you're whining about.

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RE: G20 summit protests in London - 4/2/2009 11:01:01 AM   
shannie


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Marc2b
A hypothetical situation:

You have several rural families living near you that are poor and are having a hard time affording groceries.

Response number one:  You and others pool your money and buy seeds and then teach these people how to plant home gardens and grow their own vegetables. 

Response number two:  Prance around in the street like a drunken idiot smashing windows and hurling invective at people you don’t even know.

Now, which of these two responses do you think is more likely to feed a hungry person?


Yes, cooperation would be the ideal way to bring about change. I'm not aware of any monumental social change that ever came about that way, though. It certainly can't be said that cooperation is the only way to bring about change.

Just as one example, in the US, the poor whites and blacks in the south never did get together and calmly solve the problems. And I'm sure most of them, on either side of the racial divide, couldn't have really articulated the complex social/economic underpinnings of the problem. No, people finally acted from feelings of anger -- and clashed!  And change did come about (some change, anyway.)



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RE: G20 summit protests in London - 4/2/2009 11:03:13 AM   
NorthernGent


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Marc2b

Somehow I knew you were going to come along when I wrote that. 



Yes, you're my reason for being, Marc. I follow you around waiting for you to post nonsense.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Marc2b

the more peaceable majority are still (in my opinion) wasting their time with their silly chants when they could be doing something more productive.    



Why are they wasting their time?

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RE: G20 summit protests in London - 4/2/2009 11:08:21 AM   
stella41b


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Marc2b

quote:

Especially when it might upset the plutocracy. The only 'peacable assembly for a redress of our grievances' allowed now...is lobbying.


The key word there is “peaceable.” There is nothing peaceable about the London protests (these kind of protest very rarely are). Actual peaceable protests are allowed. There are other ways as well. Ever hear of a strike? We live in a world of mass, virtually instant, communication so there are many other means to get one’s message out. Then there is there really radical notion of actual helping those around you but, of course, that will take time away from prancing around the street acting like a drunken idiot.


Actually you're wrong. Yesterday there was the larger protest and demonstration in Trafalgar Square which was very peaceful with hardly any arrests.

And yes I have heard of a strike, but to be able to organize a strike you actually need a trade union but unfortunately Thatcher and Murdoch put the kibosh on unions back in the 1980's. There's a whole load of Sun reader mentality types who idolize right wing media heroes such as Jon Gaunt and Richard Littlejohn who think the cause of all the problems is the 'underclass' such as the long term unemployed, homeless, asylum seekers, and so on and so on. If anyone dares to organize the strike they will have the power of the media working against them, especially in the tabloid press.

All this increased productivity and growth tosh is starting to wear thin and the actual real source of the problems isn't among the people but up there at the top in the City in the corporate boardrooms. Can anyone here actually name ten top British CEO's? Probably not because we lead the world in the number of greedy, grasping, incompetent corporations who are much more concerned with profits and bonuses than investment and real business and just like in Eastern Europe as in Iraq more recently they are not competitive and are losing out to the more competitive companies and corporations from the States, Japan, Germany and elsewhere. This is nothing but delusions of grandeur.

Britain isn't getting it on a plate any more but like everyone else in the world we have to roll up our sleeves and graft and it's about time that those in the boardrooms in the City started giving something back instead of trying to screw people and shaft people right left and centre irrespective of whether it's the jobless, the working population, small businesses.

This is where we have a choice - do we actually try to come together and show some solidarity and overcome the divisions or are we going to continue to pretend that it's not happening, to leave it to something or someone else to make things better and end up with more anger, hatred, civil unrest and class warfare?

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RE: G20 summit protests in London - 4/2/2009 11:11:04 AM   
kittinSol


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quote:

ORIGINAL: stella41b
This is where we have a choice - do we actually try to come together and show some solidarity and overcome the divisions or are we going to continue to pretend that it's not happening, to leave it to something or someone else to make things better and end up with more anger, hatred, civil unrest and class warfare?


Off with their heads  .

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RE: G20 summit protests in London - 4/2/2009 11:37:00 AM   
pahunkboy


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Status: offline 		But dont be fooled.  Police provocateurs start trouble.  Police posing as protesters attack.

They did it during the prez conventions.

I sorta think - the time to be polite and chatty is over.     They act like there is gold in there. There isnt.   The gold is in underground bunkers elsewhere.

The bail out- was a coup.   When that makes its way to YOUR dinner table.  It wont be time to be "polite".  

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RE: G20 summit protests in London - 4/2/2009 11:38:43 AM   
pahunkboy


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Status: offline 		http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bseefXu79Fw    here is Fox take on it.   hmm

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RE: G20 summit protests in London - 4/2/2009 12:50:22 PM   
Vendaval


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol
You know, if it weren't for demonstrations and barricades, the world wouldn't be what it is today. There comes a time when people have to demonstrate in order to show their lords and masters the sheer force of their disapproval.


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