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RE: Redemption? - 4/5/2009 3:38:44 AM

JstAnotherSub

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thanks for sharing this story philosophy.

i think that one day, when there have been thousands, if not millions, of stories like this one, we will finally judge folks on who they are, instead of the color of their skin. life is a learning process, and that includes learning that beliefs we hold may be wrong.

whether it be someone like this man, who felt hatred, or someone raised in suburbia that was lily white and they felt fear of the unknown, living and getting to know folks of all races and beliefs makes most of us grow as human beings.

i suspect he had these feelings of remorse for a long time, but it took death looking him in the face to make him act on them.

i hope many more follow him.....

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RE: Redemption? - 4/5/2009 4:01:53 AM

MissMorrigan

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I enjoyed your post, JstAnotherSub. Life is a learning process, whether we grasp it immediately, or it takes us fifty years and longer. I cannot even begin to imagine how shattering it must be to a person for them to adhere to and apply a specific doctrine only to realise that they have been wrong all those years. It must weigh very heavily on a person.

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RE: Redemption? - 4/5/2009 4:22:04 AM

MadAxeman

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I'd rather feel for all the people he abused over many years.

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RE: Redemption? - 4/5/2009 4:35:40 AM

MissMorrigan

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Max, who's to say that's mutually exclusive? Of course I feel for them, too, but they weren't the only victims.

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RE: Redemption? - 4/5/2009 4:57:07 AM

stella41b

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A man may conquer a million men in battle but one who conquers himself is, indeed, the greatest of conquerors.
(Dhammapada 103)

Better than a hundred years in the life of a person who does not comprehend the Noble Dhamma (Dhammamuttamam), is a day in the life of one who comprehends the Noble Dhamma.
(Dhammapada 115)

I'm with philosophy and Firmhand here.

Forgiveness and mercy are core Christian values. Surely it is better to make peace with the world and yourself before you die than leaving it until afterwards?

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RE: Redemption? - 4/5/2009 5:32:50 AM

MadAxeman

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I never said it was mutually exclusive. I can multitask. It's a shame so much of this man's life was squandered on hate. It's a greater shame that he felt the need to share it. He knew he was doing wrong. It's preferred that he dies having made these attempts at redemption, than not even facing his past deeds.

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RE: Redemption? - 4/5/2009 5:37:56 AM

FirmhandKY

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Thanks Stella.

I think sometimes that people don't always understand the complexity of the Christian views on forgiveness and redemption, especially in what it does for a society.

Philo touched on this point in one of his posts, but I'd like to expound a bit on it.

There are both personal and a societal aspects to both forgiveness and redemption.

From a Christian theological perspective, a person may seek and obtain forgiveness only if their heart is truly repentant and they believe that Christ gave his life for their sins, and they ask God for that forgiveness. This "saves his soul", leads to redemption, and should result in actions that prove his position. Those actions may or may not meet with others' view of what they should be, but that is immaterial. Forgiveness and redemption are God's to give.

From an individual, personal perspective, this gives the transgressor peace of mind, and should result in actions (or inactions) which prove his position, even if they don't meet with others approval. Whether or not he is "redeemed" depends on the position and beliefs of those who he wronged. Redemption is each wronged individuals' to give.

From a legal perspective, if he is still legally obligated to answer for any crimes, he is still in the barrel, and should accrue the effects of his actions under the law. Redemption is a matter of serving his sentence for any crime he may have committed.

From a societal perspective, forgiveness allows the hatred of generations to expiate. Without forgiveness, then the sins of the fathers follow the sons through the generations and you end up with vendatta, ethnic wars and a society rent by tit-for-tat revenge. Personal forgiveness, along with the legal expiation of responsibility are methods used in an attempt to have society accept and extend forgiveness. Redemption is generally a personal issue, but the ability of a society to forgive allows the entire society to be redeemed, in my opinion.

I think that the twin concepts of forgiveness and redemption are two of Christianity's greatest gifts to the secular world.

Firm

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RE: Redemption? - 4/5/2009 5:50:31 AM

MissMorrigan

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But was it a question of hate, Max? Quite often when people behave antisocially they do so without an understanding of why - and don't forget, his reactions in the era his so-called 'hatred' began wasn't deemed antisocial, it was typical and often encouraged. When a person or even a group are depersonalised, is it such a stretch of the imagination to believe that it is highly possible the man wasn't even aware that his actions and prejudices were wrong? I am certainly not stating his actions were justifiable, but I prefer to focus on understanding a person who has such a jaundiced perception.

Regardless of this man's efforts to apologise for his actions, they will never erode the fact they occurred and he is living with that guilt every day since. He could simply have closed himself off emotionally-speaking and bloody-mindedly ploughed ahead with a myopic perception to justify his actions , he chose not to. It takes a lot of courage to admit to one's wrongdoings, even more so to not only recognise the pain and suffering caused to others, but to understand the degree with which those actions have afflicted another's life.

He hasn't wronged us, he sought understanding and forgiveness from each individual he abused. That is between him and them, certainly not for you nor I to provide. What you also forget is that his actions were encouraged and enabled by an entire community - and by enablement I mean those who chose to turn their heads and ignore that such injustices were occurring. The guilt is not his alone to bear, but society's.

< Message edited by MissMorrigan -- 4/5/2009 5:55:43 AM >

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RE: Redemption? - 4/5/2009 6:31:16 AM

MadAxeman

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With respect Janie, you don't know what I forget based on a few lines. Overt racist violence was never typical. Very rarely were entire communities joined together in race hate. Bear in mind that the KKK would meet in secret. So glad you're not calling his actions justifiable. The man is seeking entry into heaven. His remarks should perhaps be read with that
in mind.

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RE: Redemption? - 4/5/2009 6:46:03 AM

JstAnotherSub

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i dont see a big difference in this man and say....someone who was raised in a family where daddy beat mommy every week......so he grows up to beat his wife....that is his normal.....later he learns that he was wrong, perhaps by then the wife has left and he never sees his kids again.....but he realizes he was wrong

we are all victims of our upbringing and environments to a point.

i dont care how long it took the man to realize he was wrong.....i dont care why he did it.....the fact he did it is a good thing, imho

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RE: Redemption? - 4/5/2009 6:46:16 AM

slaveboyforyou

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quote:

With respect Janie, you don't know what I forget based on a few lines. Overt racist violence was never typical. Very rarely were entire communities joined together in race hate. Bear in mind that the KKK would meet in secret. So glad you're not calling his actions justifiable. The man is seeking entry into heaven. His remarks should perhaps be read with that
in mind.

The hell is wasn't typical. I grew up in the South, my entire family grew up in the South. Civil rights activists were routinely subjected to violence. A mere 50 miles from me, Eisenhower had to send in the entire 101st Airborne division and federalize the entire Arkansas National Guard to protect 9 black students from mob violence in 1957. The Klan's secrecy was more of a tradition than a necessity. People knew who was in the Klan and who wasn't; it wasn't a secret where and when they met. We had three different eras of the Klan in the U.S. The first was after the Civil War, and they had to be hunted down by Federal troops (that where the secrecy tradition came in). The second era started after WWI, and it was completely out in the open. It's estimated that 20 million Americans belonged to the Klan during the 1920's. Because of scandals in Indiana mostly, the second era fizzled out. The left over Klaverns in the South were the one's responsible for the violence of the civil rights era., and there wasn't a damn thing secretive about them.

My mother grew up in segregated Alabama in the late 1940's through the 1950's. She remembers the White Citizen's Councils, and they were nothing but Klan front groups. Racial violence was widespread, and it was collectively accepted by white southernors. If you need any proof of that, look at the jury verdicts in famous lynching cases of that time period.

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RE: Redemption? - 4/5/2009 6:51:45 AM

FullCircle

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It would mean more if fear of death wasn't part of the equation. If someone is sorry they can be forgiven for it but whether or not he is genuinely sorry in this case is being brought into question by his position in life. Says more about the people willing to forgive him for such things than him himself, probably an element of pity is in their minds though.

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RE: Redemption? - 4/5/2009 6:58:15 AM

MissMorrigan

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I never stated that some communities were joined together in racial hatred, but you cannot deny that the evidence is there throughout history (and not too long ago either) where the perpetrators of such crime were well known members of communities, be those business owners, law enforcement officers, politicians, etc... and then those who were complicit with their silence and enabled it to continue. You're wrong about one thing, Max, in the 60s racial hatred was common place and typical. despite the orders for desegregation, black people continued to face disenfranchisement, grossly restricted economic opportunities, prejudice from the establishment who continued to turn a blind eye to police brutality and failure to act on reports of violence towards individuals. So with all due respect to you also, Max, while you say I don't know what you have forgotten, history doesn't support this amnesia.

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RE: Redemption? - 4/5/2009 7:05:44 AM

MadAxeman

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Seeing as the 101st Airborn Division were'nt in every town all the time. It can't be said to be typical, that implies the majority. I said 'violence' not hatred. History is a difficult enough subject with adding wilful misunderstanding.
Keep your KKK man. I'm done with racist apologists.

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RE: Redemption? - 4/5/2009 7:23:34 AM

MissMorrigan

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Wilful misunderstanding? I am disappointed you have taken this so personally and resorted to an accusation of 'wilful misunderstanding' over a point you raised - the point of which I was attempting to get across to you was that it was typical for a violent reaction to occur as a direct result to imposed change. We disagree on our understanding of historical events and I would much rather discuss such a topic than assume I am right to the point that no other person's input is necessary - Slaveboy noted some interesting points which I am looking up as a result. If I am wrong, kindly explain why instead of throwing petty insults into the wind because someone dared disagree with you.

And to clarify, I am not a racist apologist. I abhor discrimination of any kind especially based on ethnicity, gender, sexuality and disability to name but a few. I just do not believe in the continuance of persecution towards a person for the mistakes they have made and are seeking to amend. I would much rather seek to understand than to condemn.

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RE: Redemption? - 4/5/2009 7:41:28 AM

JstAnotherSub

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MadAxeman

Seeing as the 101st Airborn Division were'nt in every town all the time. It can't be said to be typical, that implies the majority. I said 'violence' not hatred. History is a difficult enough subject with adding wilful misunderstanding.
Keep your KKK man. I'm done with racist apologists.

to me, this post does exactly what you are preaching against. of course, i could be misunderstanding you. communication skills are not my strong suit by any means.

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RE: Redemption? - 4/5/2009 8:09:01 AM

kiyari

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

These are the men whom Wilson taunted all those years ago.
The men to whom he has been apologizing in recent months, asking their forgiveness and blessing.

I can understand his desire to apologize to those he hurt.
But I don't think I could ask for their forgiveness and blessing.

K.

I agree. His seeking (asking for) something in exchange demonstrates insincerity / an element of self-interest.

Now, forgiving Wilson might well be a healing effect for those wounded by him, but that is a separate situation.

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RE: Redemption? - 4/5/2009 8:12:50 AM

kiyari

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quote:

ORIGINAL: FullCircle

It would mean more if fear of death wasn't part of the equation.

If someone is sorry they can be forgiven for it
but whether or not he is genuinely sorry in this case
is being brought into question by his position in life.

Says more about the people willing to forgive him for such things than him himself,
probably an element of pity is in their minds though.

You might consider this akin to a deep addict's "hitting bottom".

SOMETHING has caused this person to re-evaluate things.

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RE: Redemption? - 4/5/2009 8:25:19 AM

RainydayNE

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i still think it's gnarly, since most people wont' admit MUCH simpler things

at the same time, i dont think it's REQUIRED of someone to go rushing towards him with open arms and say "oh wow, you're such a great person now!"
whether or not a person accepts his new-found conscience is their own issue. if he feels like he's made peace with something, he'll die believing it and everyone else will move on with their lives.

i would say, though, that overt violence was very typical. my grandparents remember/talk about loads of it. but i'm also not going to just float along and lump every racist into the "they only did what they thought was right" category.
like others have said, at some point you have to evaluate and/or break away from your parents' philosophies and make your own. lots of people with racist parents grow up and become nonracists every day. =p
they acted in full knowledge that what they were doing was wrong. they, for the most part, didn't care.

the KKK did meet in secret, but many well known people, important politicians, police officers were part of it, and some where pretty unapologetic about their membership in it. =p

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RE: Redemption? - 4/5/2009 8:28:37 AM

DomKen

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MadAxeman

With respect Janie, you don't know what I forget based on a few lines. Overt racist violence was never typical. Very rarely were entire communities joined together in race hate. Bear in mind that the KKK would meet in secret. So glad you're not calling his actions justifiable. The man is seeking entry into heaven. His remarks should perhaps be read with that
in mind.

I grew up in the South and you're simply wrong. The Klan didn't meet in secret. They openly met at the large park near myhome with a giant carved monument to Civil War leaders, the property was actually donated by a clan leader to the state.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stone_Mountain#Carving_and_the_Ku_Klux_Klan

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Post #: 40

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