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RE: Redemption? - 4/5/2009 8:32:55 AM

cpK69

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~fr~

The only way, one, can truely be forgotten, is to forget one's self.

May you find truth, Mr. Wilson.

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RE: Redemption? - 4/5/2009 8:40:39 AM

MissMorrigan

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen
I grew up in the South and you're simply wrong. The Klan didn't meet in secret. They openly met at the large park near myhome with a giant carved monument to Civil War leaders, the property was actually donated by a clan leader to the state.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stone_Mountain#Carving_and_the_Ku_Klux_Klan

I can even begin to imagine what it would be like to grow up in such an oppressive area like that, Ken. I have only read about such closed communities and still I shake my head trying to fathom how such prejudices were formed. May I ask what it was like for you growing up near an area like that, and what are perceptions in the here and now near Stone Mountain?

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RE: Redemption? - 4/5/2009 10:31:09 AM

TheHeretic

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quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy
......a story that made me sit back and ponder.........

I dunno, Phil. It strikes me that this guy inserted himself into people's lives for his own selfish reasons once, and now that he feels bad about it as he faces his mortality, is inserting himself into their lives again.

I don't know if I believe in a final judgement or not. I'd like to. No guesstimates on how this guy might weigh out.

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RE: Redemption? - 4/5/2009 11:20:47 AM

DomKen

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MissMorrigan

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen
I grew up in the South and you're simply wrong. The Klan didn't meet in secret. They openly met at the large park near myhome with a giant carved monument to Civil War leaders, the property was actually donated by a clan leader to the state.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stone_Mountain#Carving_and_the_Ku_Klux_Klan

I can even begin to imagine what it would be like to grow up in such an oppressive area like that, Ken. I have only read about such closed communities and still I shake my head trying to fathom how such prejudices were formed. May I ask what it was like for you growing up near an area like that, and what are perceptions in the here and now near Stone Mountain?

It wasn't so bad growing up. I'm sure the early 19070's were filled with turmoil for adults but for kids it was just teh way things were. The Klan may have had rallies and meetings nearby but field trips to MLK's grave were a yearly event at my school.

By the time I was a teenager it was clear that my generation's overall attitudes about race were very different than people even a few years older. But I get teh impression that that is true for most everyone born in the late 1960's.

Stone Mountain has moved beyond its past. I'm sure there are still bigots in the area but they are viewed as beyond the pale there just as elsewhere. The only real issue still troubling about the Klan around the mountain are persistent rumors that the Klan was involved in the Atlanta child murders of the 1980's.

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RE: Redemption? - 4/5/2009 11:45:33 AM

Raiikun

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata
An apology repays (i.e., redeems) nothing, and turns no evil to good. The man himself may turn from evil to good, but he cannot transform his past evil into good. Even redemption can't do that.

Depends on your belief system I guess.

From the Christian perspective, redemption/salvation as good as erases past evils; you're as a new person who never commited those acts.

The Apostle Paul for instance, killed and tortured Christians but after his conversion on the road to Damascus, he later in a letter wrote that he had never harmed anyone; and spoke truthfully, because according to the Christian belief, the person who had commited those hateful acts had long since vanished.

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RE: Redemption? - 4/5/2009 11:48:34 AM

FullCircle

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Sounds convenient for people that can't live with their conscience.

Just like if Archie said "Sorry V that man that said your baby was dead, and thus denied you access to her all your life prior to her meeting you and then getting run over, was the other Archie" That script was brilliant tragedy, bit depressing though.

< Message edited by FullCircle -- 4/5/2009 11:53:59 AM >

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RE: Redemption? - 4/5/2009 12:21:05 PM

honeygirl

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~fast reply~

Wow. So he now believes he was wrong, eh? How shocking and unusual

.

To me, seeking redemption for having done evil deeds involves more than inserting yourself into someone's life again and asking for forgiveness. What's he doing besides talking to show he is different and has changed? Nothing as far I can see.

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RE: Redemption? - 4/5/2009 1:02:21 PM

FirmhandKY

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quote:

ORIGINAL: FullCircle

Sounds convenient for people that can't live with their conscience.

I'm sure that there are some people who attempt to use Christian beliefs to take advantage.

I guess the question is ... how does one truly distinguish the fake from the truly repentent ... and who gave the one making such a determination the infallibility required?

quote:

ORIGINAL: FullCircle

Just like if Archie said "Sorry V that man that said your baby was dead, and thus denied you access to her all your life prior to her meeting you and then getting run over, was the other Archie" That script was brilliant tragedy, bit depressing though.

Confusing.

Firm

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RE: Redemption? - 4/5/2009 1:24:25 PM

FirmhandKY

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quote:

ORIGINAL: honeygirl

Wow. So he now believes he was wrong, eh? How shocking and unusual .

Yes, it is shocking and unusual.

How often do you see a person, for a long time deeply committed to their beliefs, actually take the effort to search out those that he has wronged, and apologize to them ... and understand that some will accept that apology, and some won't.

That he walks into the black churches and faces the very people he hurt and railed against, and pours out his sins. Knowing that some (apparently, such as yourself) will never think that it is anything other than a stunt (which it may well be).

quote:

ORIGINAL: honeygirl

To me, seeking redemption for having done evil deeds involves more than inserting yourself into someone's life again and asking for forgiveness. What's he doing besides talking to show he is different and has changed? Nothing as far I can see.

Talking, especially about things of which "betray" your long held beliefs, and the people who were your "friends" or compatriots is hard. He has received threats - from both blacks and whites, apparently.

He has also received forgiveness from some of the people he sought out - including John Lewis, who he beat as a young man.

*shrugs*

Perhaps his talk is cheap, but I tend to believe it is costing him somewhat more than you seem to believe.

If no one is willing to forgive, then what is the encouragement for others to reconsider their position? Hatred reflected back simply comes around again, and again.

What would you consider "sufficient" to show that he has truly changed his ways?

Firm

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RE: Redemption? - 4/5/2009 1:38:32 PM

kdsub

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Well... God, if there is one, will be his judge not me...at least where it counts. Like many have said I believe he is afraid of the consequences of his actions on judgment day...not the day he did them.

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RE: Redemption? - 4/5/2009 3:02:34 PM

slaveluci

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I wouldn't call him a "hero." I think that's going a bit too far. However, I do admire the fact that someone can turn away from a lifetime of such hateful attitudes and actions and really want to change. What are his motivations? None of us here know. Whatever they are, I applaud him for wanting to improve and for wanting to stop hating. If he thinks that's his free ticket into paradise, that's between him and his maker. Whatever the reasons, I hope it's sincere and that he can reach out and make some positive impact on those around him.

Changing his philosophies isn't going to erase or correct his past actions. All he can do is start today with new attitudes and behaviors and do things that are the antithesis of what he used to think and do. I'm glad to see that's what he plans and I hope he's able to do it, whatever the motivations. Hopefully, he won't let others' judgments about those motivations impede him...................luci

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RE: Redemption? - 4/5/2009 5:56:13 PM

cpK69

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quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

What would you consider "sufficient" to show that he has truly changed his ways?

Firm

When he can admit, at least to himself, why he did the things he did. When one wishes to be considered honest, a 'bad' truth, is always better then a 'good' lie.

Personaly, I think the only one he really needs forgiveness from, is himself.

Kim

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RE: Redemption? - 4/5/2009 6:36:29 PM

kittinSol

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

I can understand his desire to apologize to those he hurt. But I don't think I could ask for their forgiveness and blessing.

I completetly agree: contrition stands alone. If one is truly apologetic, one doesn't expect for anything in return for the apology. In his case, asking for forgiveness is asking for too much: if those he did hurt decide to forgive him, he can consider it as an added bonus for doing the right thing, but he shouldn't ask for it, and even less expect it.

Edited for lapsus.

< Message edited by kittinSol -- 4/5/2009 6:43:48 PM >

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RE: Redemption? - 4/5/2009 6:38:25 PM

Kirata

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Raiikun

Depends on your belief system I guess... From the Christian perspective, redemption/salvation as good as erases past evils; you're as a new person who never commited those acts.

I think you may have misunderstood me? The man is redeemed, yes, but not the acts themselves. I was responding to Philosophy's post, because it is not "our mistakes" that redeption turns "from evil to good".

K.

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RE: Redemption? - 4/6/2009 3:51:54 AM

SavageFaerie

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FR

I do not for one second believe this guy is seeking forgiveness or redemption. Even up to 1999 he was strong arming his own preacher for wanting to further expand black people in to the church. The articles sites years of racial acts.
This is only MY opinion but it looks to me like he still wants his moment of fame before the doors close. Kinda like raising the flag and say oh your remember that white guy that beat up so and so....hey that was ME. While it could be possible that the lord tapped him on the shoulder only when he faced death, I just don't buy it as he was already a church going man. I mean look at the publicity this has made for him, looks like a flag of hey people remember me, I am the poster boy of racism.

He has had a full life to look over his actions and still hated, I just cant see him just flipping with switch.

But this is just my opinion...I dont buy it.

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RE: Redemption? - 4/6/2009 8:04:43 AM

UncleNasty

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quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

quote:

ORIGINAL: CruelNUnsual

quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090404/ap_on_re_us/one_man_s_apology

......a story that made me sit back and ponder.........

A feeble attempt at it, yes.

""And I found out there is no way I could be saved and get to heaven and still not like blacks."

Like Pascal's Wager, if there were a heaven, insincere beliefs certainly wouldnt get you there.

Forgiveness is a core Christian value.

Firm

Yes it is Firm, but so are exclusion, condemnation, punishment and eternal damnation.

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RE: Redemption? - 4/6/2009 12:05:58 PM

FirmhandKY

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quote:

ORIGINAL: UncleNasty

quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

Forgiveness is a core Christian value.

Yes it is Firm, but so are exclusion, condemnation, punishment and eternal damnation.

I can see how you might have that opinion, I would just differ.

I think Christian core values are:

1. the deity of Jesus,
2. the humanity of Jesus,
3. salvation through grace,
4. forgiveness and redemption,
5. free will and
6. tough love.

Some of the items you mentioned fit into these core values, but are not themselves core values, to me.

Just my own personal opinion.

Firm

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RE: Redemption? - 4/6/2009 12:35:52 PM

Kirata

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quote:

ORIGINAL: UncleNasty

but so are exclusion, condemnation, punishment and eternal damnation.

A lot depends on whether you go by the spirit of what Christ taught, or by what his "Church" teaches.

K.

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RE: Redemption? - 4/7/2009 4:25:13 PM

popeye1250

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On redemption and forgiveness I once heard a preist say that God could even forgive Hitler.
I know that when I'm pissed at someone it always makes me feel better to forgive them. Why carry a grudge around with you in life?

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RE: Redemption? - 4/7/2009 5:01:39 PM

kdsub

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There are some things that should not and cannot be forgiven...but... If a black guy came up to me and said " Remember me I kicked your honky ass back in 66...I just want to say I'm sorry." First I'd look real close and see if the years have been harder on him then me. If it had been I'd kick his ass and call it even... then we'd go have a beer together. If not then I'd shake his hand and we'd still go have a beer together.

We all have thought differently at different times in our lives...we live and learn and change our ways...for the better I hope. I’ll bet all of us need to be forgiven for something.

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