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Ascension: The Four Cornerstones - 1/28/2006 4:11:50 PM   
Chaingang


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Elsewhere SirKenin said "Relationships have four cornerstones. Trust, respect, communication and honesty."

I thought that was a useful concept and I even think I may have heard it somewhere else before. I tried googling it but damn there must be a thousand variants of this "four cornerstones" thing. I discussed the idea with someone close to me and we began to devise a progression of the four elements assigned by SirKenin. I personally began to think of it in terms of a spiral progression or a kind of forever ascending series of steps that lead to ever deeper levels of intimacy between members of any given relationship. Then I began to think about a famous Escher illustration called "Ascending" or something like that. Anyway, here is my cheap and dirty "Ascension: The Four Cornerstones":



I open the thread to further discussion of this idea. Do others have interesting variants of the Four Cornerstones to share with us? Etc, etc, etc...

[Note to mods: this is not the whole Escher image, and it is heavily modified besides. I think it qualifies as a "fair use" copy, but if you disagree please remove it with my apologies. Just trying to visualize something here...]

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RE: Ascension: The Four Cornerstones - 1/28/2006 4:21:04 PM   
veronicaofML


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Elsewhere SirKenin said "Relationships have four cornerstones. Trust, respect, communication and honesty."

==============
okay
lemme give it a try

i myself abhore the term, relationship, because to ME it implies "lovey dovey".
but
respect...?
define!
respect as in;
she is a human being?
she is a lady?
she is a domme?
all of the above? and at what level of respect?
the level of dire intimate or that of a stranger?
zero to ten? what is YOUR level?
-----
communication.
define?
totally nothing hidden or is it like me, on-a-need-to-know basis?
-------
honesty?
if i dont tell you EVERYTHING in the deepest areas of my heart, am i being dis-honest?
=======
trust?
to what end?
play----trust?
$$$ trust?
trust behind my back so i know you aren't going to give me a-blanket-party tonight?
????????/
what is YOUR idea of these and THEN we can talk.




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RE: Ascension: The Four Cornerstones - 1/28/2006 4:24:30 PM   
IronBear


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I believe the basis of a sound relationship is:

1. Friendship.

2. Trust

4. Respect.

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RE: Ascension: The Four Cornerstones - 1/28/2006 4:34:09 PM   
ExistentialSteel


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A literary method many fiction writers use is to think in terms of three effects a character experiences in a situation. The physical effect, the intellectual and the emotional. I think it is the same in a relationship; you affect each other physically, intellectually and emotionally.

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RE: Ascension: The Four Cornerstones - 1/28/2006 5:41:00 PM   
wantstlc


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I agree without trust you have no relationship either in a D/s relationship which is the most important thing you must have how can anyone submit without trust - honesty is second for a relationship to survive in a D/s relationship also both are in a vanilla relationship too

Respect goes without saying I am a new Domme and i respect my male subbie as he does me as we were friends before Domme?sub

Well that concludes




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RE: Ascension: The Four Cornerstones - 1/28/2006 5:51:21 PM   
BitaTruble


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quote:

I personally began to think of it in terms of a spiral progression or a kind of forever ascending series of steps that lead to ever deeper levels of intimacy between members of any given relationship.


I think the 4 are an excellent start, but there are some elements missing as well. Attraction and compatibility sprang instantly to mind, but there are probably others as well.

Interesting concept.

Celeste

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RE: Ascension: The Four Cornerstones - 1/28/2006 7:46:28 PM   
IronBear


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Friendship.

Respect.

Trust.


Friendship is the start, you become friends because there is some form of attraction. Usually some form of reasonable communication is formed at this time too.

Friendship usually entailes, as it is growing, the development of respect. If there is no respect, the friendship will not develop and will become just a casual aquaintance. Following Respect, trust can develop at what ever speed it does for your specific relationship and how trusting you are. All the rest such as compatability and improved communications will usually develop in time anyway as you get used to each other. Love is not really a factor for you can love someone madly at breakfast, hate them by lunch time and be wrapped in their arms in a loving manner by bed time. Love is flighty at the best of time. I liken it to whisps of smoke, fragile and easily disipated. Love generally has a healthy content of lust. Later the situation of falling in love, that gut wrenching, heart squeezing painfull feeling when yoiu are with the one you intend to spend eternity with is a different thig altogether and is totally illogocal. But I guess you all know what I'm talking about. For any who hasn't experienced falling in love I am sorry for you have missed something indescribable.

< Message edited by IronBear -- 1/28/2006 7:47:40 PM >


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RE: Ascension: The Four Cornerstones - 1/28/2006 8:37:11 PM   
caitlyn


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I'm sure everyone has their own list ... and these are certainly four good ones.

I wonder though, if the real point is an understanding of what a person has to give. Trust and communication may be an issue with some people ... so perhaps they compensate with respect and honor. Or as IronBear pointed out, perhaps relationships built on friendship is the key: friendship being built on trust, respect, communication and honesty.

Most of the good relationships I have had, and that isn't many, were based on mutual interest and similarity of goals. A good example is a relationship where the demands made on the other party, are very light. This works well with those looking to avoid close commitment, or those that are just unsure.

A very interesting topic ... and I like you much better this way, than when you are slamming people.

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RE: Ascension: The Four Cornerstones - 1/28/2006 9:08:06 PM   
IronBear


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caitlyn,
Thank you for putting it so concisely. I believ that friendship is a solid base for any relationship even in business. The other two usually develop in friendships rather quickly. I have believed for as long as I care to remember as an adult, what I told Neets when we started to get serious. "I'd rather have a woman as a friend than a lover. A friend I can trust and if needs be call on late night if something is wrong, a lover? probably not and besides I can get a fuck anywhere a friend? They are precious to me and valued." We were friends untill we got engaged and even now the mainstay of our relationship is a rock solid friendship.

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Master of Bruin Cottage

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Your attitude, words & actions are yours. Take responsibility for them and the consequences they incur.

D.I.L.L.I.G.A.F.

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RE: Ascension: The Four Cornerstones - 1/28/2006 9:32:57 PM   
daredevil865


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caitlyn

why do you always seem to express yourself so well...you must have an old soul...you said in another thread seven more years of collage...instead you should be teaching...

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RE: Ascension: The Four Cornerstones - 1/28/2006 10:24:55 PM   
seaturtle50


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Honesty

Openmindedness

Willingness

Communication is an art all unto itself.

st50

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RE: Ascension: The Four Cornerstones - 1/28/2006 10:54:21 PM   
brightspot


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quote:

Friendship.

Respect.

Trust.

Friendship is the start, you become friends because there is some form of attraction. Usually some form of reasonable communication is formed at this time too.

Friendship usually entailes, as it is growing, the development of respect. If there is no respect, the friendship will not develop and will become just a casual aquaintance. Following Respect, trust can develop at what ever speed it does for your specific relationship and how trusting you are. All the rest such as compatability and improved communications will usually develop in time anyway as you get used to each other. Love is not really a factor for you can love someone madly at breakfast, hate them by lunch time and be wrapped in their arms in a loving manner by bed time. Love is flighty at the best of time. I liken it to whisps of smoke, fragile and easily disipated. Love generally has a healthy content of lust. Later the situation of falling in love, that gut wrenching, heart squeezing painfull feeling when yoiu are with the one you intend to spend eternity with is a different thig altogether and is totally illogocal. But I guess you all know what I'm talking about. For any who hasn't experienced falling in love I am sorry for you have missed something indescribable.


Curious as to why you twice left out Honesty?

*Brightspot

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RE: Ascension: The Four Cornerstones - 1/29/2006 12:04:35 AM   
IronBear


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quote:

ORIGINAL: brightspot

quote:

Friendship.

Respect.

Trust.

Friendship is the start, you become friends because there is some form of attraction. Usually some form of reasonable communication is formed at this time too.

Friendship usually entailes, as it is growing, the development of respect. If there is no respect, the friendship will not develop and will become just a casual aquaintance. Following Respect, trust can develop at what ever speed it does for your specific relationship and how trusting you are. All the rest such as compatability and improved communications will usually develop in time anyway as you get used to each other. Love is not really a factor for you can love someone madly at breakfast, hate them by lunch time and be wrapped in their arms in a loving manner by bed time. Love is flighty at the best of time. I liken it to whisps of smoke, fragile and easily disipated. Love generally has a healthy content of lust. Later the situation of falling in love, that gut wrenching, heart squeezing painfull feeling when yoiu are with the one you intend to spend eternity with is a different thig altogether and is totally illogocal. But I guess you all know what I'm talking about. For any who hasn't experienced falling in love I am sorry for you have missed something indescribable.


Curious as to why you twice left out Honesty?

*Brightspot


I left our honesty simply that it is part of friendship and part of trust. I dont see it as a subject on its own it is part of the very being of the relationship. Sure you can discuss honesty in the early days before a friendship is formed and provided that both partners understand this there should be no huge deal or song and dance later. If you are my friend I'll work on the basis that you are honest with me, as trust develops I trust you to be honest with me....

_____________________________

Iron Bear

Master of Bruin Cottage

http://www.bruincottage.org

Your attitude, words & actions are yours. Take responsibility for them and the consequences they incur.

D.I.L.L.I.G.A.F.

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RE: Ascension: The Four Cornerstones - 1/29/2006 12:14:36 AM   
brightspot


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Appreciate you answer.
I myself like to have Honesty talked
about up-front as that is important to me
and my process of gaining trust.


*Brightspot

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But..."May at Least One person have a sense of Humor!" ~KML.

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RE: Ascension: The Four Cornerstones - 1/29/2006 12:19:13 AM   
IronBear


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quote:

ORIGINAL: brightspot

Appreciate you answer.
I myself like to have Honesty talked
about up-front as that is important to me
and my process of gaining trust.


*Brightspot


For me it happens earlier, but I agree it should be up front and I believe the earlier the better. I'm an honest person and at times brutely honest. If i like you I'll tell you upfront and probably embarrase you, however mostly you'll always know where you stand with me. This applies to all people I deal with, not just friends. I never pay a lady a complement unless I mean it for to do otherwise, is an insult to the lade and degrades me. It's just about being honest with people.

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Master of Bruin Cottage

http://www.bruincottage.org

Your attitude, words & actions are yours. Take responsibility for them and the consequences they incur.

D.I.L.L.I.G.A.F.

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RE: Ascension: The Four Cornerstones - 1/29/2006 1:08:56 AM   
Chaingang


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Tools (how it happens):

I keep thinking that friendship (attraction, mutual interests, compatibility, etc) is taken as a given in my conception of this. As such, I suppose we could place friendship as the foundation of this structure. I think the visualization I am attempting here presupposes a relationship exists in the first place upon which one would then place one's cornerstones. So the four cornerstones are seen by me as a progression or set of tools that make further building upon an existing friendship or relationship possible, but they are not the foundation of such a relationship. By contrast, the foundational principles are not themselves the tools to make the relationship work.

Rather than just taking the Four Cornerstones as merely static and unrelated elements, I began to see a progression of sorts. Part of a more linear progression could run like this:

communication <---> honesty <---> trust <---> respect <--->

And that's where I started to think of the linear progression really being more of an Oroboros type figure - a snake eating it's own tail, or a loop. So the more one communicates openly and honestly the more trust one gives and receives which therefore leads to increased respect, and begin again - ascending. Trust, for example, only comes with time, so in that sense I think trust cannot be taken as a foundational principle as it is something that comes later (my view only). Respect likewise is not something that I give as granted, it's earned over time as my esteem for the other person increases. I learn to respect someone because they communicate honestly with me and that in turn inspires my trust; so respect comes later on in my view. Redundant, eh?

Foundations (why it happens):

Attraction and mutual interests strike me as useful and necessary foundationally, but absolutely not the basis for anything further - or at least only maybe. Personally, I have had many relationships where attraction and mutual interests were the basis for a lovely night, or even a fortnight - but anything more requires an actual effort. Actually I had a relationship like that fairly recently but I immediately felt that honesty was something sorely missing from the arrangement and that always makes me hold back. So right, that went on for maybe a month...

It occurs to me that compatibility is something not to be overlooked; in my view it is the single most important foundational ingredient. I have often thought that day to day compatibility is absolutely critical. if you can't get along on that basis you still have nothing upon which you can build. I usually describe this as being about stuff to do with the toilet lid being up or down, or leaving a jar opened on the kitchen counter. Those small daily choices that tell you whether you are an "Odd Couple" (old reference I know, Felix and Oscar anyone?) or a pair that might actually get along.

Other considerations:

With interest I note that no one has yet mentioned love. Or should I say ***LOVE*** ? This should go with fanfare and little angels winging about as small hearts float on a swirling breeze. So many think that love is so critical, and yet for me it so often seem entirely beside the point. Or seen another way, when everything else you need is in place and things are functioning smoothly, love comes of it's own accord anyway. The shadow side of love, really just lust and usually renamed as love as a deceit, is a very poor replacement for the real thing. But even the real thing cannot take precedence over the very real elements that make relationships work.

Within a BDSM context I often think of relationships as arranged pairings that I am arranging for myself - like the arranged marriages of old. Instead of size of the dowry and fertility as my markers I see mutual interests, and sexual compatibility as high on the list. Love was not the basis for such relationships in the old days, it came only with the right circumstances and time - and yet I think it can be said that many relationships could have been seen as successful, with or without love. I am really interested in the kinds of things that go into our modern day arranged pairings (or more than mere pairings if you like).

So what makes arranged relationships work or not work?






< Message edited by Chaingang -- 1/29/2006 1:11:24 AM >


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RE: Ascension: The Four Cornerstones - 1/29/2006 6:30:44 AM   
MHOO314


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quote:

Relationship:

Interpersonal relationships are social associations, connections, or affiliations between two or more people. They vary in differing levels of intimacy and sharing, implying the discovery or establishment of common ground, and may be centered around something(s) shared in common.

Types of interpersonal relationships:

* Kinship relationships, including family relationships, being related to someone else by blood (consanguinity), e.g. fatherhood, motherhood; or through marriage (affinity), e.g. father-in-law, mother-in-law, uncle by marriage, aunt by marriage.
* Formalized intimate relationships or long term relationships through law and public ceremony, e.g. marriage and civil union.
* Non-formalized intimate relationships or long term relationships such as loving relationships or romantic relationships with or without living together; the other person is often called lover, boyfriend or girlfriend (not to be confused with just a male or female friend), or significant other. If the partners live together, the relationship may be similar to marriage, and the other person may be called husband or wife. Over a certain length of time they are so regarded by common law. Mistress is a somewhat old fashioned term for a female lover of a man who is married to another woman, or of an unmarried man. She may even be an official mistress (in French maîtresse en titre); an example is Madame de Pompadour. ( I had to giggle on this one)
* Soulmates, individuals who are intimately drawn to one another through a favorable meeting of the minds and who find mutual acceptance and understanding with one another. Soulmates may feel themselves bonded together for a lifetime; and, hence, they may be sexual partners but not necessarily.
* Casual relationships, relationships extending beyond one night stands that exclusively consist of sexual behavior, the participants of which may be known as friends with benefits when limited to considering sexual intercourse or sexual partners in a wider sense.
* Platonic love is an affectionate relationship into which the sexual element does not enter, especially in cases where one might easily assume otherwise.
Friendship, which consists of mutual love, trust, respect, and unconditional acceptance, and usually implies the discovery or establishment of common ground between the individuals involved; see also internet friendship and pen pal.
* Brotherhood and sisterhood, individuals united in a common cause or having a common interest, which may involve formal membership in a club, organization, association, society, lodge, sorority, fraternity. This type of interpersonal relationship also includes the comradeship of fellow soldiers in peace or war.
* Partners or coworkers in a profession, business, or a common workplace.
* Acquaintanceship, simply being introduced to someone or knowing who they are by interaction.


(sorry to steal a post style from Chaingang but I needed to frame My comments): My assumption here is that we are discussing a good relationship---for there are bad relationships that have those 4 pillars as direct opposites, or some malformed construct of these pillars and some deviance or variance---hmm but wait, don't we have that in most relationships? Or are they all pure?

Sorry---that's for another thread--

What we need to realize, or ponder are the 4 basic precepts inherent n a relationship---be they pure or not so pure---IMHO

quote:

----attraction is a physcial manifestation


----love is an emotional manifestation


So I am eliminating those as "pillars"--I might find someone repulsive to look at but I may still have a relationship with them. I may detest someone as well, but still have a relationship with them.

quote:

---relationship may be as simple as the person who checks you out in the grocery or as veronica says---lovey dovey (smiles)


The question is: do these 4 pillars exist in a relationship? Can a relationship be established to some degree with out these pillars--be they positive or negative?

I am not sure Chaingang if they are "cornerstones" unless you are referring to what is established as the relationship evolves. I go back to the example of the checkout person----there is some minor communication--but does he or do you respect, trust and show honesty? Hmm maybe, maybe not---but as the relationship develops, these other elements may begin to drop into place--hence the thought of ascension---but they may never drop into place either--does a relationship then not exist?

so are they present to some degree in every relationship--even to the negative deviation? I would say it depends upon what you define as a relationship----if you use the pure definition quoted above--I would say---no. Now the question arises---well what is present? I am going to say communication--for without that in its simplest forms, one does not have the first level of ascension---if this cornerstone is good or bad determines whether there is any further ascension--and at any point along the way the relationship can fall off---

But if you use relationship to mean an "evolved set of mutual interactions resulting in some form of bond between 2 or more people over a period of time with a deepening intimacy to the bond"--then I would say---- yes they CAN exist---but there is also a good chance that they fell off the tower and they do not exist as well




< Message edited by MHOO314 -- 1/29/2006 6:33:52 AM >


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RE: Ascension: The Four Cornerstones - 1/29/2006 7:45:00 AM   
Chaingang


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MHOO314
I am not sure Chaingang if they are "cornerstones" unless you are referring to what is established as the relationship evolves. I go back to the example of the checkout person----there is some minor communication--but does he or do you respect, trust and show honesty? Hmm maybe, maybe not---but as the relationship develops, these other elements may begin to drop into place--hence the thought of ascension---but they may never drop into place either--does a relationship then not exist?


You tease, but to take your example as is: while I do have a relationship to the checkout person it is limited in many ways. In a post above I discuss friendship as an assumed given or foundation to the kinds of relationships I am thinking about. I might be friends with the checkout person, but most likely not - at least not on the basis of that commercial relationship.

Here's a more ordinary definition, most of the definitions seem to center on the idea of kinship or some other close tie. So actually I think it leaves out more casual encounters like me and the checkout person.

...

re·la·tion·ship. noun

1. The condition or fact of being related; connection or association.
2. Connection by blood or marriage; kinship.
3. A particular type of connection existing between people related to or having dealings with each other: has a close relationship with his siblings.
4. A romantic or sexual involvement.

...

So yes, I was actually thinking about a "romantic" or "intimate" or BDSM type relationship of some intensity. I suppose I should have said so specifically. Your cite goes into issues of marriage and legal ceremony, but at the root of those relationships is the couple as lovers. Let me restate:

I am specifically thinking of "long term relationships" of an Eros type.


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RE: Ascension: The Four Cornerstones - 1/29/2006 7:50:03 AM   
Chaingang


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quote:

ORIGINAL: caitlyn
Most of the good relationships I have had, and that isn't many, were based on mutual interest and similarity of goals.


Here's an idea I have long maintained, as stated so well by one of my favorite authors:

"Life has taught us that love does not consist in gazing at each other, but in looking outward together in the same direction." - Antoine de Saint-Exupery

quote:

ORIGINAL: caitlyn
A very interesting topic ... and I like you much better this way, than when you are slamming people.


Sometimes I just can't stop my slabby hand.



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RE: Ascension: The Four Cornerstones - 1/29/2006 9:10:57 AM   
veronicaofML


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i still havent had an answer to MY questions~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

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