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RE: Should medics who helped torture be sanctioned by m... - 4/8/2009 12:02:16 PM   
kittinSol


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lynnxz
The medics are in a rough spot... do they give minimal care to the prisoners, or do they protest the treatment, get themselves banned from the facility, and leave the prisoners with NO care.


I agree that it's a tough decision to have to make, but this is how it is: without the assistance of the doctors, it's very possible that the torturers would not have proceeded any further. Imagine if they had blown the whistle straight away, as the medical code of ethics, as well as logic and morals, demand... none of this would have gone as far as it did. It's the code of silence that was engendered by the previous administration that created the atmosphere of secrecy that allowed for these crimes to occur.



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RE: Should medics who helped torture be sanctioned by m... - 4/8/2009 12:03:13 PM   
Lynnxz


Posts: 4813
Joined: 10/3/2006
From: Atlanta
Status: offline 		They just monitor the conditions, they are in no position to change what happened at Guantanamo.

As far as whistle blowing.... I seriously doubt they would have been allowed to do so. It's a fricking torture camp, you really think they approve of tattles? From where I sit, it looks like the Red Cross just tried to make the best of a really bad deal.


< Message edited by Lynnxz -- 4/8/2009 12:04:45 PM >

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RE: Should medics who helped torture be sanctioned by m... - 4/8/2009 12:06:50 PM   
kittinSol


Posts: 16926
Status: offline 		No, the real problem is that they did more than just monitor the situation. Some doctors were active participants in the torture of prisonners.

< Message edited by kittinSol -- 4/8/2009 12:07:11 PM >

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RE: Should medics who helped torture be sanctioned by m... - 4/8/2009 12:08:18 PM   
slvemike4u


Posts: 17896
Joined: 1/15/2008
From: United States
Status: offline 		Advising interrogaters when to stop....when it was safe to proceed....what levels of discomfit were "safe"...no these guys figuratively have blood on their hands,and deserve at the least sanctions imposed.

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Funny stuff....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNwFf991d-4


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RE: Should medics who helped torture be sanctioned by m... - 4/8/2009 1:33:30 PM   
TreasureKY


Posts: 3032
Joined: 4/10/2007
From: Kentucky
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

Really? Then show us that the medical staff involved in torture did NOT violate their code of ethics.


Sorry, but I won't get sucked into trying to prove a negative.  The article in question states, "The report does not indicate whether the medical workers at the C.I.A. sites were physicians, other professionals or both."  Perhaps if would care to specifically identify the individuals who participated, what their medical credentials are, and what particular code of ethics that they adhere to, then, we might go down that road.  Until then, you are out of luck. 

(in reply to kittinSol)
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RE: Should medics who helped torture be sanctioned by m... - 4/8/2009 1:49:50 PM   
slvemike4u


Posts: 17896
Joined: 1/15/2008
From: United States
Status: offline 		Predictably this seems to be breaking down along the same lines we might see if the interrogation methods themselves were being debated.In large part if you were okay with torture....your answer to the op is no.Those that felt we should not be in the torture business....are almost unanimous in their condemnation of participating medical personal..

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If we want things to stay as they are,things will have to change...Tancredi from "the Leopard"

Forget Guns-----Ban the pools

Funny stuff....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNwFf991d-4


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RE: Should medics who helped torture be sanctioned by m... - 4/8/2009 2:04:03 PM   
rulemylife


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quote:

ORIGINAL: barelynangel

I presume the torture was occuring under lawful controlled conditions.


And here I was presuming that torture was unlawful under any conditions.



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RE: Should medics who helped torture be sanctioned by m... - 4/8/2009 2:57:06 PM   
rulemylife


Posts: 14614
Joined: 8/23/2004
Status: offline 		nevermind.

just found the thread on it.


< Message edited by rulemylife -- 4/8/2009 3:00:17 PM >

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RE: Should medics who helped torture be sanctioned by m... - 4/8/2009 3:00:43 PM   
DomImus


Posts: 2004
Joined: 3/17/2009
Status: offline 		I agree that the medics are in an extremely tough position and are trying to make the best of that tough position. What bothers me about this discussion is the one sided or double standard nature of it. I'm going to guess that the majority of the folks here who support sanctioning these medics also support abortion or 'right to choose' or whatever euphemism it is called today and would rail against any action to sanction those medical professionals. If we're gonna preserve life and 'do no harm' let's do it across the board evenly.

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RE: Should medics who helped torture be sanctioned by m... - 4/8/2009 3:09:08 PM   
slvemike4u


Posts: 17896
Joined: 1/15/2008
From: United States
Status: offline 		Abortion is a procedure done at the behest of the patient for her own personal reasons.It is legal and ,quite properly ,it is a woman's right to choose.....how is that analogous to this conversation?
How in any way can you make a comparison?
edited to add...it is also sometimes medically necessary...again what about this would in any way compare to the OP's question?

< Message edited by slvemike4u -- 4/8/2009 3:11:05 PM >

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If we want things to stay as they are,things will have to change...Tancredi from "the Leopard"

Forget Guns-----Ban the pools

Funny stuff....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNwFf991d-4


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RE: Should medics who helped torture be sanctioned by m... - 4/8/2009 3:11:23 PM   
Lynnxz


Posts: 4813
Joined: 10/3/2006
From: Atlanta
Status: offline 		DI, what does abortion have to do with ANYTHING here?

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RE: Should medics who helped torture be sanctioned by m... - 4/8/2009 3:16:01 PM   
slvemike4u


Posts: 17896
Joined: 1/15/2008
From: United States
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Lynnxz

DI, what does abortion have to do with ANYTHING here?
Other than a shit ass analogy....not a thing.

_____________________________

If we want things to stay as they are,things will have to change...Tancredi from "the Leopard"

Forget Guns-----Ban the pools

Funny stuff....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNwFf991d-4


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RE: Should medics who helped torture be sanctioned by m... - 4/8/2009 3:21:51 PM   
FirmhandKY


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Joined: 9/21/2004
Status: offline
FR:

From the article:

Based on statements by 14 prisoners who belonged to Al Qaeda ...  Red Cross investigators concluded ... which the Red Cross described as torture ...  At times, according to the detainees’ accounts, medical workers ...

Khalid Shaikh Mohammed, the chief planner of the Sept. 11 attacks, told investigators ... Another prisoner, Walid bin Attash (ed, check out link), who had previously had a leg amputated, said  ...
I guess that's the ticket .... them thar Al Queda guys are really just good ole boys, with no interest in anything but giving all us Western civilians the real truth ... after all, we all know that 9/11 was an "inside job".

After all, Rosie O'Donell done tole us so! 

Firm

PS.  A whole lot of condescending and smug assuming going on here.  Appeal to your bias and prejudices, much, ya'll?

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RE: Should medics who helped torture be sanctioned by m... - 4/8/2009 5:12:21 PM   
kittinSol


Posts: 16926
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: TreasureKY

Until then, you are out of luck. 



Actually, no: your stance is proof to me that I am correct, and that you just picked an argument for the sake of it. And you should do something about that thing in your eye: it must be very annoying.  

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RE: Should medics who helped torture be sanctioned by m... - 4/8/2009 5:25:10 PM   
Owner59


Posts: 17033
Joined: 3/14/2006
From: Dirty Jersey
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: TreasureKY

quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

Really? Then show us that the medical staff involved in torture did NOT violate their code of ethics.


Sorry, but I won't get sucked into trying to prove a negative.  The article in question states, "The report does not indicate whether the medical workers at the C.I.A. sites were physicians, other professionals or both."  Perhaps if would care to specifically identify the individuals who participated, what their medical credentials are, and what particular code of ethics that they adhere to, then, we might go down that road.  Until then, you are out of luck. 



Agusto Pinochet could use a lawyer like you.

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RE: Should medics who helped torture be sanctioned by m... - 4/8/2009 5:33:15 PM   
slvemike4u


Posts: 17896
Joined: 1/15/2008
From: United States
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY


FR:

From the article:


Based on statements by 14 prisoners who belonged to Al Qaeda ...  Red Cross investigators concluded ... which the Red Cross described as torture ...  At times, according to the detainees’ accounts, medical workers ...

Khalid Shaikh Mohammed, the chief planner of the Sept. 11 attacks, told investigators ... Another prisoner, Walid bin Attash (ed, check out link), who had previously had a leg amputated, said  ...

I guess that's the ticket .... them thar Al Queda guys are really just good ole boys, with no interest in anything but giving all us Western civilians the real truth ... after all, we all know that 9/11 was an "inside job".

After all, Rosie O'Donell done tole us so! 

Firm

PS.  A whole lot of condescending and smug assuming going on here.  Appeal to your bias and prejudices, much, ya'll?
See to me this is where the argument goes off the rails.
It would seem to me what you are trying to do is justify torture by pointing out that the recipiants of such treatment are scum...and in most cases you are in all probability right....but it misses the point.
My objection to my country being in the torture business has nothing whatsoever to do with them...and everything to do with what I thought this country was supposed to stand for.That great shining example to the rest of the world about the dignity of free men...and what Lincoln called  " the better angels of our nature".

_____________________________

If we want things to stay as they are,things will have to change...Tancredi from "the Leopard"

Forget Guns-----Ban the pools

Funny stuff....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNwFf991d-4


(in reply to FirmhandKY)
Profile   Post #: 96
RE: Should medics who helped torture be sanctioned by m... - 4/8/2009 5:53:49 PM   
FirmhandKY


Posts: 8948
Joined: 9/21/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY


FR:

From the article:


Based on statements by 14 prisoners who belonged to Al Qaeda ...  Red Cross investigators concluded ... which the Red Cross described as torture ...  At times, according to the detainees’ accounts, medical workers ...

Khalid Shaikh Mohammed, the chief planner of the Sept. 11 attacks, told investigators ... Another prisoner, Walid bin Attash (ed, check out link), who had previously had a leg amputated, said  ...

I guess that's the ticket .... them thar Al Queda guys are really just good ole boys, with no interest in anything but giving all us Western civilians the real truth ... after all, we all know that 9/11 was an "inside job".

After all, Rosie O'Donell done tole us so! 

Firm

PS.  A whole lot of condescending and smug assuming going on here.  Appeal to your bias and prejudices, much, ya'll?
See to me this is where the argument goes off the rails.
It would seem to me what you are trying to do is justify torture by pointing out that the recipiants of such treatment are scum...and in most cases you are in all probability right....but it misses the point.
My objection to my country being in the torture business has nothing whatsoever to do with them...and everything to do with what I thought this country was supposed to stand for.That great shining example to the rest of the world about the dignity of free men...and what Lincoln called  " the better angels of our nature".

It "goes off the rails" because some choose to be credulous in accordance with their biases.

If I were to engage in my own biases, I'd ask whether or not the interrogations could be classified the way that some wish for them to be.

But, as has already been pointed out, there is a lot of black and white thinking going on here, worst than at any fire and brimstone Southern Baptist revival.

To disagree with some (kittin, Owner59) in this thread is about the same as flashing your tits at the preacher.

Damnation for you.

Firm

< Message edited by FirmhandKY -- 4/8/2009 5:57:13 PM >

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RE: Should medics who helped torture be sanctioned by m... - 4/8/2009 6:01:51 PM   
slvemike4u


Posts: 17896
Joined: 1/15/2008
From: United States
Status: offline 		So you don't beleive we were involved in torturing prisoners at Gitmo?


_____________________________

If we want things to stay as they are,things will have to change...Tancredi from "the Leopard"

Forget Guns-----Ban the pools

Funny stuff....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNwFf991d-4


(in reply to FirmhandKY)
Profile   Post #: 98
RE: Should medics who helped torture be sanctioned by m... - 4/8/2009 6:03:02 PM   
kittinSol


Posts: 16926
Status: offline 		Disagree with what? That the medical staff involved made "errors of judgement" at best? That they should be held accountable for their medical decisions? And that this is no longer about politics, but about medical ethics? What exactly do you disagree with? You insinuate that the torture was somehow justified: this is not the point of this thread.

I think your disagreement is stewed in political arguments - that's why you're unable to make any kind of coherent case to justify this holy 'opinion' of yours. Nobody is damning you but yourself, and Owner and I aren't the only posters who argue alongside the same lines. Perhaps it bothers you that you are in the minority, but that's something you'd better be getting used to - in the end, your reasons are you own.

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RE: Should medics who helped torture be sanctioned by m... - 4/8/2009 6:07:08 PM   
Aynne88


Posts: 3873
Joined: 8/29/2008
Status: offline 		Oh kitty cat you have mail.

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As long as people will shed the blood of innocent creatures there can be no peace, no liberty, no harmony between people. Slaughter and justice cannot dwell together.
—Isaac Bashevis Singer, writer and Nobel laureate (1902–1991)



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