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RE: Should medics who helped torture be sanctioned by m... - 4/7/2009 10:38:10 PM

slvemike4u

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aneirin

quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

To the poster's who wondered how much worse it might have been without a doctor there to monitor the interogation,I have one question.Are You Kidding Me?....Do you believe for a minute the doctor present was there for the benefit of the prisoner?His one sole function was to make sure no mistakes were made,dead men are not known for supplying intelligence....actionable or not(99% complete garbage garnered from these "sessions")

No, I am not kidding you, but there always exists a flip side to every action right or wrong. What I do want to know, is wtf are the western world doing when they engage in torture to extract information, information which might not be there in the first place. What message is sent out when these abhorrent practices leak into the world's public arena, perhaps we can sort of accept it might happen in some parts of the world, but the US and with that I suspect the UK can hold it's head in shame too, as somewhere in it, the brits will be involved, they usually are.

But, Abu Ghraib, GTMO and now this, I think you should be asking was the information gleaned worth the disgrace brought to the country.

Anerin...I think you need to take a deep breath,and reread my post...it is a condemnation of the practice of torture,and the medical personal who would facilitate such activities .And openly states that 99% of the "take" from such sessions is garbage.

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Post #: 41

RE: Should medics who helped torture be sanctioned by m... - 4/7/2009 10:42:28 PM

slvemike4u

Posts: 17896
Joined: 1/15/2008
From: United States
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quote:

ORIGINAL: chiaThePet

quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

Chia I find your humor irreverent,acerbic and thoroughly enjoyable.....but IMO you couldn't be more wrong here....just my opinion.

I find I'd like to have unbridled sex with you.

Right or wrong.

chia* (the pet)

See what I'm saying...acerbic, irreverent ...funny.Just all twisted out of shape on this issue.Let me ask you something Chia extrapolate this practice....expand it,lets spitball here what other activities,that evil men engage in ,do you thing call for the use of torture as an instrument of reveng/intelligence gathering....where will you draw the line?Where will the next guy draw the line?

_____________________________

If we want things to stay as they are,things will have to change...Tancredi from "the Leopard"

Forget Guns-----Ban the pools

Funny stuff....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNwFf991d-4

(in reply to chiaThePet)

Post #: 42

RE: Should medics who helped torture be sanctioned by m... - 4/7/2009 10:44:47 PM

ThatDamnedPanda

Posts: 6060
Joined: 1/26/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: maybemaybenot

I absolutely agree with this. To allow that is malpractice, however, pain and suffering can be alleviated without euthansia in most cases. We both agree that pain and suffering is the greater harm. We disagree on how to treat pain and suffering.

Maybe, maybe not, maybemaybenot. (god that was fun). I'm only speaking in terms of patients who are terminally ill, and for whom the only choices are do we help them ease out peacefully right now or make them linger in agony for several more days or weeks. Get beyond that relatively simple set of criteria, and we're getting into a gray area in which easy answers just don't apply.

Assisted suicide for people with non-terminal conditions are a fish of an entirely different kettle. You mention arthritis, for example. I've got an arthritic knee, that limits me more and more with each passing year, has caused what i consider a significant deterioration in my quality of life, and which will someday need to be replaced. Does that justify a physician helping me end my life? Hell, no.

But I had an aunt, a very warm, sweet, wonderful woman, who in the last 20 years of her life was literally crippled by horrible arthritis. In my life I've seen few people suffer as terribly as she did. By the time she finally died, she was was twisted into a grotesque, nightmarish pseudo-human shape, as though she'd been made of aluminum foil and someone had accidentally crumpled her into a little ball and then tried to straighten her back out again. Every waking moment, she was racked with searing pain. And considering she could hardly sleep at night for the pain, most of her moments were waking moments. In her case - well, i still don't know if I'd have supported physician-assisted suicide, but if she'd ever come to the decision that it was time to check out, and acted upon that decision, I don't think anyone in the family would really have blamed her for it. I dunno. It's a murky area, and there's no easy, uniform answer.

< Message edited by ThatDamnedPanda -- 4/7/2009 10:45:31 PM >

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Post #: 43

RE: Should medics who helped torture be sanctioned by m... - 4/7/2009 10:53:06 PM

chiaThePet

Posts: 2694
Joined: 2/4/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

quote:

ORIGINAL: chiaThePet

quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

Chia I find your humor irreverent,acerbic and thoroughly enjoyable.....but IMO you couldn't be more wrong here....just my opinion.

I find I'd like to have unbridled sex with you.

Right or wrong.

chia* (the pet)

See what I'm saying...acerbic, irreverent ...funny.Just all twisted out of shape on this issue.Let me ask you something Chia extrapolate this practice....expand it,lets spitball here what other activities,that evil men engage in ,do you thing call for the use of torture as an instrument of reveng/intelligence gathering....where will you draw the line?Where will the next guy draw the line?

Perhaps you might share with me where I sanctioned the use of torture as an instrument of revenge.

Spitballing however sounds fairly kinky.

chia* (the pet)

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You can stick me in the corner, but I'll probably just end up coloring on the walls.

(in reply to slvemike4u)

Post #: 44

RE: Should medics who helped torture be sanctioned by m... - 4/7/2009 11:23:56 PM

Vendaval

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Yes

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Post #: 45

RE: Should medics who helped torture be sanctioned by m... - 4/7/2009 11:35:51 PM

DomKen

Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
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Everyone who helped torture should be sanctioned.

(in reply to Vendaval)

Post #: 46

RE: Should medics who helped torture be sanctioned by m... - 4/8/2009 4:03:46 AM

Lucylastic

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Absolutely yes

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Post #: 47

RE: Should medics who helped torture be sanctioned by m... - 4/8/2009 4:28:53 AM

barelynangel

Posts: 6233
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Nope, i don't think they should be, i don't believe they violated their oaths or ethics. Their Oaths or Ethics are not to interpret or determine whether a law is correct or should be occuring, their Oaths and ethics are to make sure that within the concept of what is occuring their job is accomplished. Its not their ethical duty to determine if torture is acceptable or not, its not their ethical duty to determine if a person should be lawfully be torture. I presume the torture was occuring under lawful controlled conditions. To me this is the same as a doctor standing by to pronounce a prisoner dead or a doctor standing by while a plug is pulled. To me, a doctor isn't HELPING torture, he doesn't DO the torture, he monitors the person. Do Dr.'s in war who patch up and ship out people back to be shot again participate in the deliberate attempts to kill as they do in war? No, they don't, they do their jobs, which isn't to protect those from what is happening, its to monitor and fix what they can so the people can go back out and do it all again.

I think people are thinking that the Doctors by monitoring the person during the activities that were at the time legal, it seems to me that based on that report they were doing their job and following the ethics of the job. Until what 20 years ago, doctors NEVER got involved or rarely did with child OR spousal abuse. Should all of those doctors of that era who patched people up and sent them back into the environment be sanctioned because there was no law telling them to report it even though they felt what the person was doing by hurting another was wrong? If you think about it on a domestic level these doctors were doing the same thing as the doctors in this article, sending these women and children BACK to be tortured, maybe with instructions to the abuser not to do it so often or let them heal etc etc etc.

Doctors also have an ethical obligation to follow the law and sometimes that law isn't a concept people feel is correct, however, until the law is repealed, there need to be doctors involved in the LEGAL activity. To me this is the redcross attempting to push their moral beliefs on others and attempt to stop something by witchhunting.

That to me is what these doctors were doing and just because people are outraged about torturing of people in these circumstances, i think its ridiculous to blame the doctors for NOT feeling they should interpret the law that allowed the occurance of what was going on.

You don't have to like what the doctors did, however, i don't see how they violated their ethics anymore than doctors in war would, or doctors little more than what 20 years ago whose hands were tied and sent people back into dangerous and abusive conditions. If you start trying to morally determine an ethical duty based on a job someone does, you have to look at ALL concepts of the same actions in many different conditions. Not just the ones that you really don't like or approve of.

However, from the article, if they do it now, they would be inviolation of the law and therefore, sanctions would be appropriate in my view.
angel

< Message edited by barelynangel -- 4/8/2009 4:30:58 AM >

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Post #: 48

RE: Should medics who helped torture be sanctioned by m... - 4/8/2009 5:12:27 AM

kittinSol

Posts: 16926
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Whether you see it or not, or think they did or not, the doctors involved did violate their code of ethics. That's unquestionable, and everyone agrees they did (except you). The question is whether they should be punished for violating their code of ethics. Their code of ethics says that they deserve the full condemnation of the medical profession, revocation of their licenses, and even complete exclusion from the medical body.

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Post #: 49

RE: Should medics who helped torture be sanctioned by m... - 4/8/2009 5:22:00 AM

MarsBonfire

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Joined: 3/6/2005
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I think they will make highly valued members of the hospital staff... of whatever prison they serve their sentances in.

After they get out, say in ten to 20 years, we can then decide if they still have a career on a case by case basis.

(in reply to kittinSol)

Post #: 50

RE: Should medics who helped torture be sanctioned by m... - 4/8/2009 5:26:28 AM

kittinSol

Posts: 16926
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I doubt very much they will be criminally investigated, Mars. The people who gave the torture orders, that's another matter.

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Post #: 51

RE: Should medics who helped torture be sanctioned by m... - 4/8/2009 5:33:14 AM

MarsBonfire

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More the pity. Once again, the excuse of "I was just following orders."

As I remember, justice was never served to Mengele, either.

(in reply to kittinSol)

Post #: 52

RE: Should medics who helped torture be sanctioned by m... - 4/8/2009 5:40:50 AM

slvemike4u

Posts: 17896
Joined: 1/15/2008
From: United States
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: chiaThePet

quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

quote:

ORIGINAL: chiaThePet

quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

Chia I find your humor irreverent,acerbic and thoroughly enjoyable.....but IMO you couldn't be more wrong here....just my opinion.

I find I'd like to have unbridled sex with you.

Right or wrong.

chia* (the pet)

See what I'm saying...acerbic, irreverent ...funny.Just all twisted out of shape on this issue.Let me ask you something Chia extrapolate this practice....expand it,lets spitball here what other activities,that evil men engage in ,do you thing call for the use of torture as an instrument of reveng/intelligence gathering....where will you draw the line?Where will the next guy draw the line?

Perhaps you might share with me where I sanctioned the use of torture as an instrument of revenge.

Spitballing however sounds fairly kinky.

chia* (the pet)

You miss the point Chia.whether or not you "sanction the use of tur tyure as an instrument of revenge"...it will be and has been used as such.Once you go down that direction Chia ,once you condone "enhanced interogations" seeking actionable intelligence...you wind up with Abu Gharib....

_____________________________

If we want things to stay as they are,things will have to change...Tancredi from "the Leopard"

Forget Guns-----Ban the pools

Funny stuff....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNwFf991d-4

(in reply to chiaThePet)

Post #: 53

RE: Should medics who helped torture be sanctioned by m... - 4/8/2009 5:50:04 AM

chiaThePet

Posts: 2694
Joined: 2/4/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

You miss the point Chia.whether or not you "sanction the use of tur tyure as an instrument of revenge"...it will be and has been used as such.Once you go down that direction Chia ,once you condone "enhanced interogations" seeking actionable intelligence...you wind up with Abu Gharib....

If I'm not sanctioning "tur tyure" (whatever the hell that is) why are you lecturing me on such.

Again, where in any of my posts have I condoned "enhanced interrogations"?

Which words of my original post here in any way blessed the actions of those at Abu Gharib?

chia* (the pet)

_____________________________

Love is a many splendid sting.

You can stick me in the corner, but I'll probably just end up coloring on the walls.

(in reply to slvemike4u)

Post #: 54

RE: Should medics who helped torture be sanctioned by m... - 4/8/2009 6:02:11 AM

firmobeisance

Posts: 55
Joined: 5/25/2007
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Got to say that this is rich, Owner59 serves up another one. Should they be sanctioned...point seems kind of moot to me. Forget the licensing process, all the education, experience, forget the remote car wreck analogy; let's not go there, let's go ahead and make a stand right here and now, where most of the moral considerations have been conveniently heaped to either side of the issue. I like all the arguments that say, "Let's sanction or even un-certify physicians that "make a mistake." Gonna love sorting that one out in court. Meanwhile, just as you intend, all the other physicians are watching and taking notes. So now, before I can have this guy fix my crumpled little daughter, besides all the usual un-indemnification forms in triplicate, I have to certify that I will not testify or offer evidence in any potential license review action. There's an added dimension to that precious patient/doctor relationship.

We as a culture are so wrapped up in punative responses. To me, it is as if the West is telling the rest of the world: "We know We are making mistakes and so long as We continue to remedy each one We needen't concern Ourselves with what causes them."

(in reply to MarsBonfire)

Post #: 55

RE: Should medics who helped torture be sanctioned by m... - 4/8/2009 6:03:12 AM

Boredoms

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Joined: 2/1/2009
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Mars: "Once again, the excuse of "I was just following orders.""
Just my opinion but born from personal experience, till the end of time this is going to be the case. It has been shown in the most explicit experiments, that as long as there is a white coat or presence of uniform in any respect, man's inhumanity to man will continue in whatever guise. How about those who preserve health and well being in order to allow the death penalty? What is the point, and yet we do?! Jokes about giving lethal injections with a non sterile needle and the like abound, and yet they must follow protocol. All medics no matter who or what they are will follow the orders of Governments and those who bite back have their teeth pulled and end up on the scrap heap.

(in reply to chiaThePet)

Post #: 56

RE: Should medics who helped torture be sanctioned by m... - 4/8/2009 6:10:37 AM

kittinSol

Posts: 16926
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Why should doctors be above the law? Remind me. Where one crooked quack participated in torture, there are thousands who would have refused. It doesn't mean the crooked quack should get away with it.

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Post #: 57

RE: Should medics who helped torture be sanctioned by m... - 4/8/2009 6:17:12 AM

kittinSol

Posts: 16926
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Boredoms
How about those who preserve health and well being in order to allow the death penalty?

Actually, the American Medical Association has prohibited its members from participating in judicial executions. The following were deemed unethical by the AMA:

- pronouncing the prisoner dead
- monitoring vital signs
- placing intravenous lines
- selecting sites for intravenous lines
- ordering lethal drugs
- supervising personnel who carry out injections
- inspecting or maintaining injection devices
- injecting lethal drugs

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Post #: 58

RE: Should medics who helped torture be sanctioned by m... - 4/8/2009 6:17:29 AM

barelynangel

Posts: 6233
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kittnSol, i DON'T AGREE they violated their ethics -- there are probably MANY who believe as i do, of course the outrage cry of let's crucify is louder i am sure -- so sorry, your "You are the only one" is BS and we both know it. I am sure the MEDICS don't agree they did. So what? Your whole post to me is ridiculous and silly. Get over yourself. As i said you start analyzing if THEY did, then you will have to put every doctor who was working and who have patched up and sent home every abused kid and spouse ESPECIALLY if those cases turned out to result in death or such. Yeah, its all feel good let's blame the medics for the torture and such, let's punish them for doing their job, but let's decide what their ethics should be, i mean hell, they could have walked away and no medical professional would have been around to stop someone from being drown or getting them to let a guy sit down. Let's prosecute them to make an example so next time people will think twice about doing this and hell more people will just die. Your viciously against the death penalty kittnsol, have you considered that these medics may have SAVED these individuals from an accidental death penalty to be around to start the outrage you and others are showing. So which is it, you are against the death penalty or against medics believing their ethics allow them to do as much as they can to keep these people alive for perhaps being able to escape the abuse and torture. Seems to me you have a dilemma on your hands lol because if those medics weren't there, those people could have died. Would that have been better -- seems you think so. I don't -- thankfully the medics were there so these people now have a chance at life beyond the torture and perhaps will be able to put their lives back together if they are released. Otherwise, well hell, they may be dead.

Oh well, it is all the medics fault. Sometimes people just don't think things through for the sake of let's crucify the bastards because i am morally and ethically correct -- in my own opinion and definition of couse -- as to how everyone else should think and do things and the reasoning behind it, that the alternative isn't let's say to me an ethical reason for a medical professional NOT too, i.e., death.

But in the world of morality, so what if some people die because others are more concerned about the ethics of people trying to help them within the parameters they are allowed. (Which the medics unfortunately HAD parameters).

As i said its the same thing with war, doctors patch up and ship out for possibility of more harm. Are they violating their ethics volunteering to be a medical professional in the war because they may HAVE TO ACCEPT things they don't want to in order to help someone with parameters set by another?

angel

angel

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What lies behind us and what lies before us are tiny matters compared to what lies within us.
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(in reply to Boredoms)

Post #: 59

RE: Should medics who helped torture be sanctioned by m... - 4/8/2009 6:20:29 AM

kittinSol

Posts: 16926
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I have absolutely no idea what you are trying to say, but I'm sure you mean well.

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Post #: 60

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