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RE: Columbine....10 years after. - 4/9/2009 1:50:42 PM

kittinSol

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Really? I thought the U.S. were the gun store for Mexican drug dealers, precisely because the gun laws are so much tougher south of the border.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/02/26/us/26borders.html

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RE: Columbine....10 years after. - 4/9/2009 2:07:52 PM

Crush

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----

< Message edited by Crush -- 4/9/2009 2:08:13 PM >

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RE: Columbine....10 years after. - 4/9/2009 2:43:52 PM

DomKen

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDamnedPanda
Well first of all, I'm not questioning the writer's intelligence. He's probably a pretty bright guy, or he wouldn't be where he is. I'm saying he's biased, ignorant, and uninformed. As far as this issue is concerned. As someone who does a hell of a lot of hiking and camping in bear country, his comment about carrying handguns in national parks was all I needed to see to dismiss his credibility.

I've hiked and camped in Yellowstone, Yosemite and the Great Smokeys and never felt the need for a handgun, encountered several bears always making tracks away from me. I'd very much appreciate it if no one on National Park land was armed. It means I'm less likely to get shot by somebody who saw a bush move.

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RE: Columbine....10 years after. - 4/9/2009 2:48:22 PM

slvemike4u

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quote:

ORIGINAL: couldbemage

The only thing I took away from the columbine shooting was that rich people are newsworthy and poor people aren't.

...and 9 out of 10 drug dealers agree; guns are easier to buy in mexico than in the US.

Victimless crime is concept abhorrent to anyone that values freedom. Period. No exceptions.

Poor children are less newsworthy than rich children?
Is that a commentary on the media's bias or your own?

Would those be guns of U.S.manufacture your buying in Mexico?

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RE: Columbine....10 years after. - 4/9/2009 3:58:31 PM

MarsBonfire

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As a gun owner and a lifetime member of the NRA, I'm goin' rouge here and saying that the thought of so many people in the US who have guns, and HAVE NO IDEA how to actually use them, maintain them, or keep them safely locked up when not in use just scares the living crap out of me. We educate and lisence people to drive, or to fly. It's what helps maintain some level of saftey on the roads and in the skies. Why most gunowners seem to think that guns (ie killing machines) should be any different, just puzzles me to no end.

Columbine is a sore spot with me. I lived about 12 miles from that school when I was still living in Denver. I have a good friend whos daughter was attending that school at the time of the gun-based atrocity. (Thank god she disobeyed her Mom, and went to the Mall for an early lunch with her girfriends, instead of having it in the cafateria.) The number of screwups on that day can be stacked like cord wood. Why the cops didn't have the balls to enter the school for almost two hours, is anyone's guess. But one thing is clear: Klebold and Harris were broken. Seriously, they were bat-shit-fucked-up-crazy. Even if they didn't have access to the mac-10's, and the other ordinance that they'd stockpiled, they probably still would have killed plenty with their home made pipe bombs.

The reasons behind why Columbine happened go far, far deeper than "these kids were bullied." Yes, that was a part of it, but they were also dehumanized by a school social "caste" system, and ignored by their parents WHO HAD NO IDEA that they were stockpiling weapons for a seige.... It's so fucking easy to just say it was the video games, or Manson, or that they were goths, or that they were (supposedly) gay, or that they played D&D... we heard a lot of media speculation that day (and the weeks following) as to which minority group we were supposed to cast them as being a part of, and how we should immediately hate that group for being different.

Suburbia became an incredibly ugly place in the months that followed. Zero tolerance policies, hundreds of kids being given over to therapists to make sure they weren't going to be the next ones to snap, the purges of music, videogames, and lit that people deemed "dangerous." Cerfews. Invasions of privacy. Suddenly, parents all across Colorado looked on their kids as being akin to some secret order of the Taliban or something.

I could care less about the gun issue, other than the organization that I mentioned being a part of, the NRA, created it's own public relations nightmare with that fucking stupid rally less than a couple of weeks after. Whomever was in charge of the organization at that time should have had his balls kicked up into his throat. Heston himself should have known better. A perfect example of Hollywood ego and hubris on display when he held up the rifle and proclaimed, "from my cold dead hand."

Yeah, right Chuck. You fucktard! 13 unarmed people just died in a standoff in a school across town and YOU, "Moses" come flying in to push it in Colorado's, and the rest of the nation's faces. Talk about giving everything you stand for the biggest black eye you can imagine. They didn't just make gun owners look clueless. It made them look like they were all paranoid, insane Rambo wannabes... like they were just as bad as Harris and Klebold themselves.

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RE: Columbine....10 years after. - 4/9/2009 4:16:27 PM

Vendaval

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Fast Reply -

I have a friend who was attending school in Colorado not far from Columbine at the time of the shootings and she still gets very upset and emotional when the anniversary rolls around every year. And the local cops here started stopping all the local Goth/Punk club goers who wore long black trench coats on the streets, searching for weapons, etc.

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RE: Columbine....10 years after. - 4/9/2009 4:36:07 PM

OrionTheWolf

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~FR~

I remember Marilyn Manson's music being blamed for some of it, and seeing a clip where a reporter asked him about Columbine. He was asked if he had the chance to talk to those teenagers before what happened, what would he say. His response was along the lines that he wound not say a single thing, instead he would listen because he felt that was likely part of the problem.

I am a proponent of responsible gun ownership, and have no problem with laws that support that.

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RE: Columbine....10 years after. - 4/9/2009 4:41:27 PM

Daddysredhead

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~FR~

The schools in my area do not allow people to wear trench or other long coats in the buildings. They have also banned the wearing of coats of any kind in the classrooms. A bit of overkill, imo, although I understand wanting to be careful... but sometimes it's an overabundance of caution.

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RE: Columbine....10 years after. - 4/9/2009 4:54:37 PM

rulemylife

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MarsBonfire

I could care less about the gun issue, other than the organization that I mentioned being a part of, the NRA, created it's own public relations nightmare with that fucking stupid rally less than a couple of weeks after. Whomever was in charge of the organization at that time should have had his balls kicked up into his throat. Heston himself should have known better. A perfect example of Hollywood ego and hubris on display when he held up the rifle and proclaimed, "from my cold dead hand."

Yeah, right Chuck. You fucktard! 13 unarmed people just died in a standoff in a school across town and YOU, "Moses" come flying in to push it in Colorado's, and the rest of the nation's faces. Talk about giving everything you stand for the biggest black eye you can imagine. They didn't just make gun owners look clueless. It made them look like they were all paranoid, insane Rambo wannabes... like they were just as bad as Harris and Klebold themselves.

Speaking also as a gun owner, this is exactly why I hate the NRA.

They do more harm than good to the issue of gun ownership.

Which makes me wonder, if you feel as you say, why maintain a membership?

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RE: Columbine....10 years after. - 4/9/2009 5:36:49 PM

jombuto

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDamnedPanda

As someone who does a hell of a lot of hiking and camping in bear country, his comment about carrying handguns in national parks was all I needed to see to dismiss his credibility.

Well that's just stupid logic. The law involved having CONCEALED weapons in parks. How many times have you had a bear run up to a campsite only to stop because it saw a guy with a gun in a shoulder holster. "Whoa hey man, I was ust gonna try to steal your beef jerkey, but now that I see you have a gun..." You wanna have a gun to protect yourself, I'm all for that. In fact wear it proudly with a big fat orange shoulder holster. That way idiots know who not to mess with, Rangers know you have it, and that you're a responsible individual not trying to hide anything, and bears are the only ones who possibly get shot.

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RE: Columbine....10 years after. - 4/9/2009 6:25:52 PM

MarsBonfire

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Rule, because it was a gift from my Dad initally... Stupid, I know. But I lost him some years back, and still getting the magazine and the Association's newsletters still remind me of the times we used to go hunting or trap shooting together. Besides, how are you supposed to keep track of what the hell they're up to, otherwise?

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RE: Columbine....10 years after. - 4/9/2009 6:51:36 PM

slaveboy291

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quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

quote:

ORIGINAL: slaveboy291

quote:

And what did you think of the editorial,after all that is the subject of the thread...not school bullying.

The articles deals with Columbine and guns, I'm saying there's more too what happened imo than just guns.

quote:

No

Then what do you think caused it then? Bowling?

Well geeez are those the only choices....seriously the psychosis of those two killers went far beyond a lousy social life at school.Hell if intense,even over the line bullying was all it took to turn 2 kids into mass murderers...we better start home schooling all our children.Kids are cruel to each other,they allways have been.
And really the aticle deals with far more than just Columbine and guns...it deals with a nations inability,or refusal, to fashion some sort of national responce to this and other similiar tragedy's and that is the issue right there.

With certain people yes it would. It's a trigger, but my point is that you seemed to miss either because you believe in giving canned net responses or you really don't pay attention closely is that there's a plethora of issues leading up to what happened. And that bullying was an issue, and if the person does have that kinda personality than that can be a trigger to do exactly that. Just like others fight back or don't. It's not the only issue, but it still is an issue.

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RE: Columbine....10 years after. - 4/9/2009 8:32:33 PM

ThatDamnedPanda

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quote:

ORIGINAL: jombuto

quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDamnedPanda

As someone who does a hell of a lot of hiking and camping in bear country, his comment about carrying handguns in national parks was all I needed to see to dismiss his credibility.

Well that's just stupid logic. The law involved having CONCEALED weapons in parks. How many times have you had a bear run up to a campsite only to stop because it saw a guy with a gun in a shoulder holster. "Whoa hey man, I was ust gonna try to steal your beef jerkey, but now that I see you have a gun..." You wanna have a gun to protect yourself, I'm all for that. In fact wear it proudly with a big fat orange shoulder holster. That way idiots know who not to mess with, Rangers know you have it, and that you're a responsible individual not trying to hide anything, and bears are the only ones who possibly get shot.

Oops! You made a minor editing mistake! The sentence "well that's just stupid logic" was supposed to be at the end of your post, not the beginning. It fits much better there.

It's not a question of whether anyone knows I'm carrying it, or whether I care whether anyone knows I'm carrying it. It's a question of staying within the legal definition of what is and is not a concealed weapon.When I'm hiking in Minnesota or Wisconsin, black bears are the issue, so my Colt .45 is sufficient. I generally carry that one in a paddle holster that nestles into the small of my back, and if I'm wearing rain gear or a loose jacket that goes below the belt line, the gun legally becomes a concealed weapon.

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RE: Columbine....10 years after. - 4/9/2009 8:44:14 PM

rulemylife

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MarsBonfire

Rule, because it was a gift from my Dad initally... Stupid, I know. But I lost him some years back, and still getting the magazine and the Association's newsletters still remind me of the times we used to go hunting or trap shooting together. Besides, how are you supposed to keep track of what the hell they're up to, otherwise?

No, I understand.

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RE: Columbine....10 years after. - 4/9/2009 8:45:02 PM

DarkFury

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Without getting into a losing argument regarding gun laws and the right to carry firearms. I am wondering if there the laws were enforced in the manner which they are intended and the average person is properly educated in the correct manner to handle, use and own firearms, do you think that tragedies such as Columbine and other school shootings would be less? I see the point of view where students are somehow able to get their hands on weapons too easy it seems.

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RE: Columbine....10 years after. - 4/9/2009 9:25:28 PM

OrionTheWolf

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I believe they would. They would know and understand the importance of gun safes, trigger locks, and keeping only certain weapons with limited ammo available readily. They would also have less misfires as they would know how to clean the damn things.

quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkFury

~FR~

Without getting into a losing argument regarding gun laws and the right to carry firearms. I am wondering if there the laws were enforced in the manner which they are intended and the average person is properly educated in the correct manner to handle, use and own firearms, do you think that tragedies such as Columbine and other school shootings would be less? I see the point of view where students are somehow able to get their hands on weapons too easy it seems.

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RE: Columbine....10 years after. - 4/9/2009 9:27:17 PM

MasterShake69

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just imagine if the eggbeater timer connected to the propane tanks didn't malfunction. Then you would be talking about all the students at Columbine being dead ;)

Oh and don't forget these kids brought there own explosives. ;)
the guns were just the backup plan.

http://www.indenvertimes.com/2009/04/09/columbine-killers-prepare-for-massacre/

Harris and Klebold have hand signals, and one imagines them jotting down the gestures before the massacre with a mixture of excitement and exactitude; serious about the carnage, but giddy to kill. The signals include: Bombing—wave fist
Cops sighted—wave hand
Suicide—point to head with gun Like children overloaded with candy, Harris and Klebold fill their cargo pants with CO2 bomblets, but save space in their pockets and utility belts for shotgun shells and 9mm cartridge magazines. A backpack and a duffle bag hold more bombs. They carry at least four knives. Two are small, including one that resembles a dagger and has an “R” scratched into the black handle, assumedly for Harris’s nickname, Reb. Another hulking knife looks to be about a foot long. A fourth is a contraption like brass knuckles but with spikes jutting out, and a wedge-shaped knife attached to one end. The sheriff concludes Harris and Klebold do not use their knives, but they discuss it, saying “I’ve always wanted to use a knife.” Their cars match their persons. Harris’s dream car is a Hummer, but he calls his 1986 gray Honda Prelude the best gift he has ever received. He fills it with a pipe bomb, gas cans, and a twenty-pound propane tank. The trunk holds two large black containers police believe are full of gasoline. One cop suspects a white plastic gallon jug labeled kitchen degreaser is homemade napalm. A pint bottle of bleach and a metal can of charcoal lighter round out the collection. Klebold’s 1982 black BMW holds similar booty........The sheriff figures the car bombs, which never detonate, are set to blow up the officers and paramedics responding to Columbine. Around 11:15 a.m. investigators believe Harris and Klebold carry two duffle bags into the cafeteria and place them beside lunch tables. Each duffle contains a twenty-pound propane bomb set to explode at 11:17 a.m., when Harris and Klebold figure “500+” will be in the cafeteria. They return to their cars and wait for the bombs to explode so they can mow down surviving students and staff who try to flee.

quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

Perhaps its the masochist in me,perhaps I just love to stir up shit...but the following opinion peice appeared in todays N.Y.Times(i know that bastion of liberal thinking ....yada yada yada)Opinions Please...and for the sake of Mod 11 could we keep this gun thread civil

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RE: Columbine....10 years after. - 4/9/2009 9:34:02 PM

ThatDamnedPanda

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quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

Now that you've said all that, what exactly are you proposing?

What is a sensible gun control law and what are the real problems you referred to?

quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

Panda ,how does a national law governing or controlling guns somewhat stand up to a lawsuit if you don't ammend the constitution.( by the way I agree wholeheartedly with your prognosis for the chance of that happening in our lifetime...a snowball in hell has a better chance) With that in mind I would echo Rule...just what sort of legislation do you think is a)possible and b) likely to have a positive effect on what is IMO a national disgrace.

I'm not avoiding this, but I'd like to sleep on it. I've been thinking about it all day, and reconsidering my position on a few things. I can offer a few ideas now, but frankly I'd rather wait until tomorrow and put it out there all at once.

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RE: Columbine....10 years after. - 4/9/2009 10:25:40 PM

ThatDamnedPanda

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkFury

~FR~

Without getting into a losing argument regarding gun laws and the right to carry firearms. I am wondering if there the laws were enforced in the manner which they are intended and the average person is properly educated in the correct manner to handle, use and own firearms, do you think that tragedies such as Columbine and other school shootings would be less? I see the point of view where students are somehow able to get their hands on weapons too easy it seems.

I think it would help somewhat, but it wouldn't solve the underlying problem which is that we've somehow become a society that breeds sociopaths like a barnyard spawns flies.

I don't think it's that students can get their hands on weapons too easily, I think the problem is that too many of the students who have access to the weapons are insane. When i was a little bitty panda going to panda high school, my friends and I all had so many guns around our respective houses that the principle danger was that we might trip over the damned things and break our necks. I mean, we literally carried guns in school on a regular basis - people think I'm making it up when I tell them this in the context of our present society, but we used to carry cased firearms to hunter safety classes in our high school. It was not uncommon for kids to carry a cased rifle from class to class all day because they thought it was safer than leaving them in their lockers. The farm boys who drove pickup trucks to school all had rifle racks in the rear windows of their trucks, and I don't even remember anyone making it a point to lock their trucks. The school had security guards patrolling the parking lots, so it was considered safe to leave your guns in an unlocked car. The school security guards would have prevented anyone from stealing your guns.

It made perfect sense, and nobody ever seemed to think twice about it. The idea that someone would actually shoot up a school was utterly incomprehensible to any of us. It would never have even entered our minds, not even to make a sick joke about it. We would have been stunned, horrified at the very idea. What this tells me is not that the problem is too many guns, or too many kids having access to guns. The problem is, too many of our kids today are insane. Something in our culture has taught this generation of kids that it's not only OK to use guns to settle your differences, it's downright cool. We're not going to solve the problem until we figure out a way to stop producing such vast quantities of insane children.

< Message edited by ThatDamnedPanda -- 4/9/2009 10:26:54 PM >

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RE: Columbine....10 years after. - 4/9/2009 10:39:40 PM

MasterShake69

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what about propane tanks ;)

the shooting was their secondary plan

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