RE: Mass killings and underlying reasons (Full Version)

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OrionTheWolf -> RE: Mass killings and underlying reasons (4/13/2009 5:58:13 PM)

I do not believe there is a single answer for what occurs. I do believe Philosophy touches on some good points. I also believe that no matter how well off a society may be, there will always be sociological and psychological abnormalities. I posed a vested interest idea on this board a few months back, and it was met with varied comments but little interest. The poor versus rich thing has always been going on. I actually support the idea of caste systems, where merit is used for mobility of status.

I cannot remember when I read it, but someone once suggested that war was actually a natural way to reduce males within a population. That the natural aggression in males had a check and balance, and war was it. I also believe that the limited resources effects this.



philosophy -> RE: Mass killings and underlying reasons (4/13/2009 9:33:06 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

Columbine...2 kids from well off families
Wong(binghamton)...maladjusted immigrant who never assimilated to American society,not rich but certainly had access to basic necessities
Cho(Virginia tech) was the son of small business owners,not rich but certainly not lacking for access to basic necessities....


....good points, but i'm not sure it's necessarily economic isolationism that's the problem. It certainly can be, after all we can all easily see how lack of money can come to mean a lack of a stake in society.
i did read somewhere about the two kids from Columbine, and how they felt excluded from the society within in the school. If you feel separate enough, for any reason, in a tiny minority of people that can produce a sort of acquired sociopathy.
i think it's all about inclusion.



slvemike4u -> RE: Mass killings and underlying reasons (4/13/2009 9:38:01 PM)

Well if that s the case we are all in a world of shit....there will allways be those who feel excluded.
Perhaps a better job could be done,as far as school kids are concerned,of identifying and reaching out to these kids.....with adults the opportunity to engage may actually be more problematic



philosophy -> RE: Mass killings and underlying reasons (4/13/2009 9:45:45 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

Well if that s the case we are all in a world of shit....there will allways be those who feel excluded.


...maybe so. Although the degree of exclusion might be mitigated....as you go on to say....

quote:

Perhaps a better job could be done,as far as school kids are concerned,of identifying and reaching out to these kids.....with adults the opportunity to engage may actually be more problematic


....agreed, reintegrating adults is a tough job. It's easier with kids, but still far from easy. It's about social safety nets. Sadly, i had to use that word social again. Probably a bit too close to that socialism word for comfort.



slvemike4u -> RE: Mass killings and underlying reasons (4/13/2009 10:06:41 PM)

I don't know Philo,not all of us are infantile where that word is concerned.



cpK69 -> RE: Mass killings and underlying reasons (4/13/2009 10:59:18 PM)

~fr~

I think it is an interesting topic to discuss; watching people who obviously have not even come close to having the feelings involved in making such choices, trying to figure out “What’s wrong with them?”…. almost amusing…

perhaps that was the real question all along, and I just didn’t see it.

What happens? At some point in their life, presumably, not too long before they decided to act; these people realize the hierocracy they/we live in. They start seeing that those who they saw as protectors, are really self serving, power hungry, shumcks. The ‘holy’ are just as dirty, if not more so then they are, and yet they’re the ones pointing fingers….

To put it briefly, they find truth, and what they see is ugly. Those they target are deemed dead, or infectious, and so ‘dealt’ with.

Can it be fixed?  No, there is no turning back from truth, and with so many in denial, there is virtually no one for them to turn to, to finish the process.

Kim



philosophy -> RE: Mass killings and underlying reasons (4/14/2009 12:24:59 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: cpK69

I think it is an interesting topic to discuss; watching people who obviously have not even come close to having the feelings involved in making such choices, trying to figure out “What’s wrong with them?”…. almost amusing…


.....you may want to refrain from assuming things about the posters here. i'm sure you have had to face hardships and trials that no-one here can understand or have ever had to deal with......except many of us have, and the darkness you see as inevitable and unending is not so.

quote:

Can it be fixed?  No, there is no turning back from truth, and with so many in denial, there is virtually no one for them to turn to, to finish the process.


.....i'd like to point you towards the old legend of Pandora's box. The box from which came all the ills of the world, but also included hope. There is wisdom in such tales.



cpK69 -> RE: Mass killings and underlying reasons (4/14/2009 2:47:59 AM)

My statement was meant as an assessment of actions, not a judgment of anyone.

It doesn’t seem accurate to believe those who ask “what is wrong with them” to have actually been in that situation.

Don’t those who do reach that point either snap, or bounce back; and are then, understanding of those who follow them and don’t bounce?

If my assessment is inaccurate, I am willing to listen.

The thing that makes me different from the ‘snappers’; I do not see darkness anymore, just places in the dark. I see inevitableness in those things coming to light, but do not believe the process we go through now, to get there, will be unending; meaning, I do not believe it will always be this hard.

Did a quick study on pandora’s box, very interesting tale. One I suspect, will be very useful in answering some questions I’ve been asking myself lately. Thank you.

These things seem to happen when a person is presented with the truth, behind what is presented as reality, in these times. They see no way for change, and feel it is there duty to ‘help’ by taking a few, what they see as ‘wolves in sheep’s clothing’, with them. As long as I'm not the one getting hit, I consider it a warning shot.

The thing that seems, to me, left unnoticed, these “little boys crying wolf” aren’t liars (though they may have misidentified the wolves). Many are just scared, and ill equipped to handle their situations, they panic and.... the rest has been covered extensively.

My first response addressed what I believe is the cause of their being ill equipped. Perhaps I began that post too far ahead in my thinking on the subject; I’ve been doing it for close to a quarter century.

No offense meant.

Kim  



cpK69 -> RE: Mass killings and underlying reasons (4/14/2009 3:20:25 AM)

A quick question toward the myth of Pandora's box. What use is hope if it is locked up in a jar?

Am I missing something?

Kim



samboct -> RE: Mass killings and underlying reasons (4/14/2009 5:41:18 AM)

"It doesn’t seem accurate to believe those who ask “what is wrong with them” to have actually been in that situation."

Hence my earlier comments trying to puzzle out whether there are any significant similarities between terrorist, serial killers, or muckers.  Sorry, what you're effectively saying is that the problem is too hard to make any traction on, and I don't agree with that pessimistic assessment.  According to you- the Wright brothers should have concluded that flying should be left to the birds, since humans are very different creatures.

As a scientist- the first step in solving a problem is identifying what the problem is.  It's OK if it's ill defined, you just have to start studying what you can identify (nibble around the edges if you will) to see what you can extrapolate from what is known.  We would be in trouble if nobody else had these urges to murder those around them.  But since these urges are pretty common, I think a working hypothesis is what caused these individuals to lose control of their higher order functioning (or did they?) in order to martyr themselves in this fashion.  If you ask how many people have had the urge to go on a murderous spree, I suspect you'll get a significant number of responses if the question were asked in a way to protect the identity of the respondent.  A much smaller fraction may have purchased/built the weapons to do so.  Clearly an even smaller fraction have gone on to use those weapons.  Another question is what percentage of people that go through the planning process actually carry out the act?  It's not 100%- I recall reading about a Columbine copycat (age 14 or so) whose plan was nipped in the bud.  Since martyrdom is generally not effective unless people know why- it's possible that a better screen of internet maunderings would prevent such murder sprees- but the more watchdogs on the internet, the less useful it becomes.

Also-one of the joys of being human is that we share very similar thought processes compared to other creatures.  I suspect that mucking is a peculiarly human behavior, but it's possible that there are roots of it in the animal kingdom, which would allow a genetic screen.  Given the lack of success of attributing complex behaviors to specific genes however, coming up with a set of genes that would likely lead to mucking is going to be quite challenging- even if such a set of genes would indeed exist.

Sam



cpK69 -> RE: Mass killings and underlying reasons (4/14/2009 6:31:51 AM)

I did not mean to imply I did not understand why the question was being asked, or that I do not think it is a worthy topic for discussion; only that I believe it is so ingrained that it will take something outside of man to break him out of it.

Actually, my point was more like; the Wright brothers should have concluded that flying was for birds, if they were only going to attach feathers to their arms, and then proclaim they are birds.

Seems to me, there is a big problem with science identifying the effect as the problem. Especially in the area of what is so pleasantly referred to as “mental illness”.

quote:

Also-one of the joys of being human is that we share very similar thought processes compared to other creatures.


Please tell me how we know that. I can see how we are able to assess similar behavior patterns, but thought, how do we ‘know’? I've yet to understand that.

If we can only work off scientific fact, perhaps it is the increase of radio frequency, and energy passing through the air, due to advances in technology; on top of stressers.

Kim



philosophy -> RE: Mass killings and underlying reasons (4/14/2009 9:28:12 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: cpK69


These things seem to happen when a person is presented with the truth, behind what is presented as reality, in these times. They see no way for change, and feel it is there duty to ‘help’ by taking a few, what they see as ‘wolves in sheep’s clothing’, with them. As long as I'm not the one getting hit, I consider it a warning shot.


...not an implausible assesment. Murder/suicides in the domestic setting certainly fall into the category you've described.

quote:

The thing that seems, to me, left unnoticed, these “little boys crying wolf” aren’t liars (though they may have misidentified the wolves). Many are just scared, and ill equipped to handle their situations, they panic and.... the rest has been covered extensively.



.....again, i don't necessarily disagree. i knew a guy who fancied himself a great chess player. He wasn't. After i'd beaten him 6 times in a row he tried to resolve the situation by throwing a punch at me. As he explained to me afterwards over a pint, he was ex-military, been trained never to accept defeat, and couldn't figure out how to respond. i suspect he was a bit anti-social to start with and no-one had ever worked with him on that issue.

This takes us back to healthcare.......although this time we're less about mending bones and more into mental health. We have no problem with attempts to prevent people getting physically ill as a result of their actions.....education around HIV is a case in point. Perhaps we need a similar campaign to try and prevent people becoming mentally ill.



philosophy -> RE: Mass killings and underlying reasons (4/14/2009 9:32:46 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: cpK69

Seems to me, there is a big problem with science identifying the effect as the problem. Especially in the area of what is so pleasantly referred to as “mental illness”.

quote:

Also-one of the joys of being human is that we share very similar thought processes compared to other creatures.


Please tell me how we know that. I can see how we are able to assess similar behavior patterns, but thought, how do we ‘know’? I've yet to understand that.



....sounds like you're familiar with Skinners Black Box theory. While that does gives us a wonderful and effective sets of tools, SR (stimulus-response) theory has largely been replaced with SCR (stimulus-cognition-response) theory.
We don't know anything really about thought itself, but we do have theories that enable us to make fairly accurate predictions about behaviour. Theories and predictions are the heart of science, not actual knowing.



samboct -> RE: Mass killings and underlying reasons (4/14/2009 10:10:22 AM)

"Please tell me how we know that. I can see how we are able to assess similar behavior patterns, but thought, how do we ‘know’? I've yet to understand that. "

Look up functional MRI.  Basically, the same region of the brain tends to light up when we think of the same thing, i.e. show a picture of a pretty naked girl to 10 guys, odds are the same region of the brain in each of them is what lights up.  Well, maybe 9.  The gay guy's brain isn't going to light up in the same way.

Philo- minor nitpicking point- well maybe not so minor.  There's an assumption here that people that go on this rampage are mentally ill.  I'm not sure of that- in just the same way that I don't think Hitler was mentally ill.  There's a difference between mental illness and character flaws.  The assumption that we're making is that these folks suffer from depression.  Treat the depression and the urge for mucking goes away.  What if that's not right?

A bit more about depression.  In general there are two forms of depression-"organic" and situational.  Organic depression is when someone who has a nice life decides to end it- a la Kurt Cobain.  Situational depression is when someone is in a situation that they find intolerable and suicide represents an attractive option.  There are lots of cases of this through history- ranging from the Jews at Masada or in Hitler's concentration camps to the businessman who takes a leap off a building when he realizes his career and family are gone.

While organic depression can respond to talk therapy or meds, situational depression generally requires changing the situation.  But that's not a medical diagnosis and the person while unhappy, is still able to process information accurately.  In other words, if we put a healthy person in the situation these muckers are in, there is a finite probability that one of them will act the way they did.  Kind of hard to call that an illness.  Alternatively, are muckers just hidden time bombs waiting to go off, and will respond with violence to nearly any unpleasant situation they find themselves in?

I don't know....and it may be some mixture of the two hypotheses.


Sam



slvemike4u -> RE: Mass killings and underlying reasons (4/14/2009 10:33:27 AM)

Philo,this is basically the problem.While we might have theories and supposition.....there isn't at this point in time any accurate fool proof method of predicting future behavior.One can identify certain red flags that might or might not indicate future anti-social behavior(and as I said in an earlier post,this is much easier to do in the young...also easier to treat)abuse of others,pets even something as simple as adolescent bed wetting have all been identified as red flags.None of this is black and white though,not all that abuse the neighbors cat wind up as a sociopath.....till advances are made in the area of mapping the brain and accurately predicting future behavior(which by the way should start a perfect shit storm over the morality of such a science)this seems to me,as I think I have made abundantly clear over the last few days, an exercise in futility.
We need a much more realistic and doable response to this problem.



cpK69 -> RE: Mass killings and underlying reasons (4/14/2009 10:49:33 AM)

I don’t know a lot of case history, aren’t a lot of the offenders, on the level we are discussing, usually older teen, young adult? (Can’t get the one that happened, I think within the last year, out of my head... the kid at the church school.) If that is true, isn’t their social life more akin to their home life by then? It’s hard for me to say, I don’t think what I had would be considered as a home life.

This is a difficult topic for me to express myself on. Having been there, the talk reminds me of my visits to my first counselor. We didn’t get past “well, if you would just…”

The other thing that comes to mind, is my visits to my last counselor, whom, by the time I left, had convinced me that, yes, I had been a victim.

It wasn’t until I got here; I gained some idea as to what had really happened all those years.

A year or two ago, I was having a conversation with my mother about the tough times. The conversation pretty much ended when she had said something to the effect “Well, those weren’t easy times for me; I felt trapped.” All I could think was, wow, after all this time; she still can’t see past herself.

My reluctance isn’t in incorporating some sort of preventive maintance program, it’s an uncertainty in knowing what to do, if the issue is about being honest, and some people can’t handle the truth.

Kim



slvemike4u -> RE: Mass killings and underlying reasons (4/14/2009 10:53:34 AM)

Sam a few points about depression,unfortunately from experience.perhaps a simplistic approach but one that has worked for me.A doctor told me,there were 2 forms of depression the first he classified as Clinical depression...one in which a person is depressed on a regular basis...and can not tell you why.This is ,in most cases ,brought about by chemical imbalances in the brain.Most anti-depressants were developed to treat this.Fortunately ,for me anyway,there is the second kind of depression...basically your run of the mill depression...brought on by actual events in ones life...in my case the loss of a younger brother to leukemia,followed in short order by an ex-wife's incredible decision to become an ex .(her timing was as ever impeccable)this of course can be treated in a two prong fashion...the use of anti depressants in tandem with some therapy.Life gets better you adjust and the depression should become a thing of the past.We are amazingly resilient entities.
  Unfortunately some can snap,no matter which form of depression they suffer from...hence the adage "suicide is a long term solution to a short term problem".....some depressions are so deep,the sufferer can never imagine a future where he doesn't feel this way.That sense of hopelessness is paralysing...actually making any effort at all is a minor miracle.When one considers even everyday depression takes some effort to overcome...imagine a reality where you can not summon the energy to arise from bed.
Identifying all of the former would take a herculean effort on the part of health services,identifying all of the latter nigh on impossible...people's lives are fluid,they ebb and flow...I shudder to think of any society where the sort of intrusion necessary for flagging those at risk were possible.



cpK69 -> RE: Mass killings and underlying reasons (4/14/2009 11:28:43 AM)

No, I hadn’t heard of Skinners Black Box theory. Was just asked once “How much can we really know?”, and it stuck. :)

I’ll check it out. *wondering if region takes into account specific ‘kinks’*

Not to nitpick, are you sure Kurt Cobain had a nice life? I can’t help thinking that the glitz and glamour isn’t all it is cracked up to be, and that there is a very steep price to anyone who wishes to play that game hard.

Another reason I bring up the above, from the outside, people thought I had a good life. My parents weren’t/aren’t poor. They are well educated, and look to be model parents and citizens. This isn’t to say they aren’t good people, but they have such a facade to the “American Dream” going, it’s not even funny. I imagine atempting to keep that up, when deep down you know it isn't true, must be hard on a person.

Kim



samboct -> RE: Mass killings and underlying reasons (4/14/2009 11:55:10 AM)

Well, it seems that we have three people here discussing depression and all of us have some first hand experience.

To the point on Kurt Cobain-he had the resources to dramatically change his life should he have chosen to do so.  Most of us do not.  Yet he chose to end his life instead- I suspect as an act of rage against Courtney.  (I'm absolutely guessing here- never met the gent or her.)

In terms of people going mucker- can involve women (I don't like Mondays) and I'm pretty sure that some of the people who've gone postal are not young.  And yes, the accident rates in the workplace bear out the phrase (I think I'm repeating myself here.)

Mike- knowing a bit about talk therapy and how unspecific most of the drugs are, I have a few problems with your statements.

1)  Clinical depression can be treated by both drugs and talk therapy.  Talk therapy has been shown to alter brain chemistry long term.  I wouldn't be surprised if the results are far longer lasting than drug therapy which often requires constant maintenance- suggesting that drug therapy is a palliative- treating symptoms rather than the underlying disease.  However, it's a disease and can be diagnosed like any other without recourse to herculean efforts.  Our mental health system used to be far more robust than it is now- thank you Ronnie Rayguns.  (Seems to be a common refrain out of me- I really despised that man.) so it will require some rebuilding- but what else is new?
2)  Situations which cause depressions in some individuals do not cause depression in others.  Thus, I'm not sure the population that needs to be treated for depression is as large as you think.
3)  As noted earlier, it's quite possible that our society is unhealthy, and that these muckings are just another symptom.

General comment- I find what trips me up in these types of discussions is not what I know, it's not what I don't know, it's what I don't know I don't know- hence I try to be careful with assumptions.

Sam



slvemike4u -> RE: Mass killings and underlying reasons (4/14/2009 11:58:48 AM)

I think Cobain would have qualified as a case of clinical depression.....in effect the trappings of his life would not have matter.Those clinically depressed can not enjoy the taste of success.No matter the level.



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