Mass killings and underlying reasons (Full Version)

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StrangerThan -> Mass killings and underlying reasons (4/11/2009 7:24:21 AM)

slvemike's thread on Columbine is the driving force behind this one. Just about every thread on violence and guns devolves into a debate on regulation, registration, limits, something along those lines. Personally, I think that stance avoids the real issues of what drives the violence rather than the tool used to accomplish it. Columbine was an abberation at the time. In the past few years however, the abberation has begun to approach the norm.

My question is why now, at this point in history, has it become common to read about one incident after another where people reached a breaking point and vented their rage, desperation, hopelessness, whatever emotion you want to call it, upon other segments of the population? What drives it?

Personally, I don't think it's that mysterious. We have a segment of society that glorifies violence, parents who raise children feeding them a steady fare of violent films, a politically divided population that refuses to compromise - are a few reasons that come to mind. They're only part of it in my view though. I see a lot of anger in people in political venues, personal areas where progresssive-PC type pressures are backfiring and generating much of the type of thought or action they try to eliminate, in economic areas where people are stressed to the limit. In other words, I don't think there's a single issue. I do think that the sum of those kinds of pressures create enough strain to where breakage should be expected.

No gun legislation debate please. Only what you think is driving the violence.




DomImus -> RE: Mass killings and underlying reasons (4/11/2009 7:36:32 AM)

The reason those discussions break down in the manner that you indicated is that too many people insist that it is the tool that is the problem and that the problem will be gone if we eliminate the tool. People are perhaps afraid to face the real problem(s). I think part of the problem is that our society has changed so much through technology. In many ways this has been wonderful for us but it has created an information overload. Nobody can deny that life was simpler in simpler times and we have become more complex people in the process, to some extent. I do agree that the steady diet of violence in our entertainment has had an impact - if for no other reason than to deaden our sensitivity to it overall. Also the manner we increasingly communicate with one another - on anonymous forums such as this - has had an impact. 




cpK69 -> RE: Mass killings and underlying reasons (4/11/2009 7:57:58 AM)

Something I’ve been thinking about for quite awhile.

I believe it can be summed up in two words; Capitalist Incompetence.

(Meant to say; It starts with) people taking jobs, not because they care to do the job efficiently, but so they have the job, to accomplish alternative motives; including, but not limited to, salary, benefits, authority, and tradition.

Some of their mottos are, “We knew it was wrong, but we did it anyway”, and “Strive to succeed today, so you can make someone else do all the work tomorrow”.

The sad thing is, it all trickles down hill.

Kim




FullCircle -> RE: Mass killings and underlying reasons (4/11/2009 7:59:18 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: StrangerThan
Personally, I don't think it's that mysterious. We have a segment of society that glorifies violence, parents who raise children feeding them a steady fare of violent films, a politically divided population that refuses to compromise - are a few reasons that come to mind. They're only part of it in my view though. I see a lot of anger in people in political venues, personal areas where progresssive-PC type pressures are backfiring and generating much of the type of thought or action they try to eliminate, in economic areas where people are stressed to the limit. In other words, I don't think there's a single issue. I do think that the sum of those kinds of pressures create enough strain to where breakage should be expected.

Well I'm glad we cleared that up.

I don't think it has anything to do with the violent society. I think it's a kin to putting too many rats in the same box; they'll start to turn on one another. It's more to do with over population: more competition and less opportunity to be heard.

With 10 thousand people in the room I'm going to have to kill someone to be heard no matter how good I think my opinion is.

What is the profile of the typical killer?:

Male
Loner
Unattractive to the opposite sex.

Why do they do it:

Envy
Jealousy
Frustration

ipso facto quod erat demonstrandum

You can all go home now.[8|] Those already home can errm go to the kitchen.




Owner59 -> RE: Mass killings and underlying reasons (4/11/2009 8:17:58 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomImus

The reason those discussions break down in the manner that you indicated is that too many people insist that it is the tool that is the problem and that the problem will be gone if we eliminate the tool. People are perhaps afraid to face the real problem(s). I think part of the problem is that our society has changed so much through technology. In many ways this has been wonderful for us but it has created an information overload. Nobody can deny that life was simpler in simpler times and we have become more complex people in the process, to some extent. I do agree that the steady diet of violence in our entertainment has had an impact - if for no other reason than to deaden our sensitivity to it overall. Also the manner we increasingly communicate with one another - on anonymous forums such as this - has had an impact. 


The tool is the problem.

Against a fellow with a knife I have a chance.Against someone with a gun,almost no chance.

Now anyone,even severely disabled  or very weak can kill with relative ease.

Now, an average fellow can dispatch people with great speed and efficiency.

Way way way beyond what one man could do w/ one(or two) breech-loaders the Founding Fathers used.Not addressing this borders on criminal negligence.




FullCircle -> RE: Mass killings and underlying reasons (4/11/2009 8:37:46 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59
Now anyone,even severely disabled  or very weak can kill with relative ease.


quote:

ORIGINAL:Stephen Hawkins
Right, Right, Right, Up, Up, Up, Left a little, Up, Up, Right, Right,… FEYE..ERR





philosophy -> RE: Mass killings and underlying reasons (4/11/2009 8:41:09 AM)

FR

...damn good question and one i've been wrestling with for some time. What makes a culture violent? What makes a culture peaceful? i agree wholeheartedly that focussing on the tools of violence is no solution. Seems to me that when any culture is unified, when all its citizens know they belong, then violence decreases. When a culture allows a proportion of its citizens to become disenfranchised for whatever reason, then violence escalates.




slvemike4u -> RE: Mass killings and underlying reasons (4/11/2009 8:48:11 AM)

So you want to have a discussion about gun violence without discussing guns....except to euphemistically refer to them as "tools'.
Whats the point here....limit the conversation to only those aspects you choose to be open to discussing...I think not.Have a nice day..[8|]




popeye1250 -> RE: Mass killings and underlying reasons (4/11/2009 8:56:32 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomImus

The reason those discussions break down in the manner that you indicated is that too many people insist that it is the tool that is the problem and that the problem will be gone if we eliminate the tool. People are perhaps afraid to face the real problem(s). I think part of the problem is that our society has changed so much through technology. In many ways this has been wonderful for us but it has created an information overload. Nobody can deny that life was simpler in simpler times and we have become more complex people in the process, to some extent. I do agree that the steady diet of violence in our entertainment has had an impact - if for no other reason than to deaden our sensitivity to it overall. Also the manner we increasingly communicate with one another - on anonymous forums such as this - has had an impact. 


The tool is the problem.

Against a fellow with a knife I have a chance.Against someone with a gun,almost no chance.

Now anyone,even severely disabled  or very weak can kill with relative ease.

Now, an average fellow can dispatch people with great speed and efficiency.

Way way way beyond what one man could do w/ one(or two) breech-loaders the Founding Fathers used.Not addressing this borders on criminal negligence.



Owner, unless you have a black belt in karate or some hand to hand combat experience from the military you probably (don't) have a "chance" against a guy with a knife.
In the "21 foot rule" even someone with a gun doesn't have a chance against a knife.
The answer is very simple, any country with 300 million people is going to have a lot of crazy people.
The type of people who do that kind of thing aren't what anyone would call "sane."
If we could totally ban guns they'd use knives.
If we totally banned knives they'd use baseball bats, if we totally banned baseball bats they'd use cars...
It seems that whenever we have a reccession these types of incidents spike.
Too many people feel isolated and alone. Many people are layed off from jobs and can't see an end to it.
How do we prevent this kind of thing? Probably a comprehensive National Healthcare System with mental health intervention for those who need it would be a *very* good start. How many of those people ever got *any* kind of mental health treatmeent? How many even had health insurance?
I didn't always agree with Hillary Clinton but she was right on as far as the U.S. having a National Healthcare System!
There is an article in Yahoo News today about the (now) *50 million people* in this country with no health coverage.




hlen5 -> RE: Mass killings and underlying reasons (4/11/2009 8:57:44 AM)

Full Circle touched on the heart of the issue I think. I the book "The Gift of Fear", Gavin DeBecker states that those losers who take up a gun to go out in a splash are incompetent to do anything else. They cannot create or have lasting relationships, but they can destroy.
They imagine that they'll stop being a loser and will be remembered for all time.

DeBecker's solution is to not glorify them and splash their names in all the papers (or soon, on all websites) but to forget them. Don't show them led out of police HQ surrounded by a phalanx of cops, show them chained to some pipe in a forgotten corner.

Do not give them their 15 minutes of fame.




cpK69 -> RE: Mass killings and underlying reasons (4/11/2009 9:04:43 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: hlen5

Full Circle touched on the heart of the issue I think. I the book "The Gift of Fear", Gavin DeBecker states that those losers who take up a gun to go out in a splash are incompetent to do anything else. They cannot create or have lasting relationships, but they can destroy.
They imagine that they'll stop being a loser and will be remembered for all time.

DeBecker's solution is to not glorify them and splash their names in all the papers (or soon, on all websites) but to forget them. Don't show them led out of police HQ surrounded by a phalanx of cops, show them chained to some pipe in a forgotten corner.

Do not give them their 15 minutes of fame.


My parents used the "It never happend" aproach; I have to disagree with Mr. DeBecker.
 
Kim




hlen5 -> RE: Mass killings and underlying reasons (4/11/2009 9:20:10 AM)

I was giving the Reader's Digest version of his assertions. I'll assume the fault is mine in not explaining it enough. The book is truly worthwhile and he is not saying pretend it never happened.




NockieVixx -> RE: Mass killings and underlying reasons (4/11/2009 9:29:02 AM)

Can't the answer be a mix of all of the above? Who says these lonely, frustrated guys don't sit at home and watch/play hour after hour of violent television and video games, then inundate themselves with happiness that they themselves are lacking all the while thoughts of "Well, Dahmer* did it ... Why can't I?" (*or insert your personal choice of violent offender here)

I don't think it's a simple issue of categorizing these people and sticking them into neatly labelled little boxes. We each have a different "snapping" point. Who knows how long these guys sat at home (or at a restaurant, or bar, or wherever) and just watched people going by with his thoughts tick-tick-ticking away like a timebomb? Who really knows their final straw?

We ALL know we live in an ultra-technological society were sex and violence is the norm. Both can be found on computers, laptops, televisions, radios, phones, and gods know what else.

So technology, frustration, constant inundation from violence ... And like one person said ... "You put too many rats in a box, they're gonna turn on each other". My personal opinion is E) Influence from all of the above causes things like Columbine.




cpK69 -> RE: Mass killings and underlying reasons (4/11/2009 10:14:05 AM)

I chose my words poorly. I should have said "it reads to me like; "those it may concern, should focus on how to deal with the results after cause has taken effect"

I’m more of a ‘preventive maintenance’, combined with 'continous improvement', type of girl. (not meant to discount anyone from being the same)

Also, the idea of calling the perpetrators “losers” struck me. I believe the actions are a natural consequence due to lack of hope/purpose, and that glory is the last thing on their minds when "it" hits the fan.

If I were unable to see more than what is obvious to the majority, I would probably feel the same. Only, I would be more likely to 'implode', than to 'explode'. Thankfully...

Kim




samboct -> RE: Mass killings and underlying reasons (4/11/2009 11:03:51 AM)

The more I think about this issue, the more puzzled I get.  Here are a few thoughts.

There are a number of causes that can lead to someone going "mucker".  (I'm borrowing the term from John Brunner's "Stand on Zanzibar".)
This is why we're so puzzled by these events- because the common threads unravel.  Only the end result is similar- lots of blood and lots of bodies.  Compare the Virginia Tech kid to the kids at Columbine, and there really aren't a lot of parallels.  In some cases it's a jilted lover, in other cases, it seems as if someone simply snapped.  The phrase "going postal" resonates because there's truth to it.  So we may be looking for common causes when they really don't exist.

In popular fiction, serial killers and mass murderers are often physically disfigured, but I'm not sure that reality coincides with this picture at all.  Guys like Ted Bundy are certainly not at first blush, anything close to what a serial killer should look like according to Hollywood- neither do the kids from Columbine.

I think for someone to go mucker, the following criteria have to be met-

1)  They're depressed.  Depression can breed anger, and not all symptoms of depression are the same.  Some folks can't get out of bed, whereas others express their rage in a very concrete manner-whether it's road rage or running amok.
2)  They have to be capable.  These are people who think that they've earned a job or respect and discover that the world is an unfair place.  Based on the level of planning and execution, these are capable individuals who probably have some justification for their anger.  The person walking talking to themselves wearing a tinfoil hat is less a threat than a person with a more "normal" appearence.

It's pretty clear that automatic weapons have increased the body count from people going mucker in most instances.  In previous days, someone who went mucker with a less effective weapon couldn't kill as many people before being subdued, and it's quite possible that some people decided not to go mucking due to an insufficient body count.  However, I have no idea what the statistics are in this activity.  Is it tied to an economic crunch, or are we just seeing a cluster which is essentially noise?  Didn't the Columbine massacre happen during what people were calling good economic times?  

What is the relationship between serial killer and mucker?  Is a serial killer a mucker with a longer time frame or are they different activities?  It does seem that muckers are more suicidal- they don't plan on getting caught, they plan on getting dead.  But was the Reverend Jim Jones really all that different from these guys?  Because he dressed things up as a religious cult- was it really religion, or just a very successful mucking?

I don't see this as a simple problem with simple answers- and I know damn well that getting rid of guns, will not stop this activity-but having a healthier society might reduce the incidence.  And yes, I think our society is unhealthy, ranging from the increasing rates of obesity and anorexia, to infertility and precocious sexual development.  If we saw all these changes in a rat population, we'd quickly conclude that something was stressing the animals out.  I'm not sure that humans are so different- only more complex.


Sam




Crush -> RE: Mass killings and underlying reasons (4/11/2009 11:15:01 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomImus

The reason those discussions break down in the manner that you indicated is that too many people insist that it is the tool that is the problem and that the problem will be gone if we eliminate the tool. People are perhaps afraid to face the real problem(s). I think part of the problem is that our society has changed so much through technology. In many ways this has been wonderful for us but it has created an information overload. Nobody can deny that life was simpler in simpler times and we have become more complex people in the process, to some extent. I do agree that the steady diet of violence in our entertainment has had an impact - if for no other reason than to deaden our sensitivity to it overall. Also the manner we increasingly communicate with one another - on anonymous forums such as this - has had an impact. 


The tool is the problem.

Against a fellow with a knife I have a chance.Against someone with a gun,almost no chance.

Now anyone,even severely disabled  or very weak can kill with relative ease.

Now, an average fellow can dispatch people with great speed and efficiency.

Way way way beyond what one man could do w/ one(or two) breech-loaders the Founding Fathers used.Not addressing this borders on criminal negligence.



Actually, against a knife, without a skillset, you don't stand a chance except for a lucky chance.  

Against a firearm, you have a chance if you have a chance if you have one too.  And with a skillset, that many with firearms gain because they aren't just walking around naked.  

And yes, now even those who are disabled or aged CAN stop someone who is young and agile.   Or I guess you'd rather they'd just die?

And do a little bit of history research...people had cannons and many other weapons besides breech loaders.

Awaiting your diversion.......
----------------------------------------

Never mess with an old man:
An old prospector shuffled into town leading an old tired mule. The old man headed straight for the only saloon in town to clear his parched throat.
He walked up to the saloon and tied his old mule to the hitch rail. As he stood there brushing some of the dust from his face and clothes, a young gunslinger stepped out of the saloon with a gun in one hand and a bottle of whiskey in the other.
The young gunslinger looked at the old man and laughed, saying, 'Hey old man, have you ever danced?'
The old man looked up at the gunslinger and said, 'No, I never did dance, -- just never wanted to.'
A crowd had gathered quickly and the gunslinger grinned and said, 'Well, you old fool, you're gonna' dance now,' and started shooting at the old man's feet. The old prospector in order to not get a toe blown off or his boots perforated was soon hopping around like a flea on a hot skillet and everybody was laughing.
When the last bullet had been fired the young gunslinger, still laughing, holstered his gun and turned around to go back into the saloon. 
The old man turned to his pack mule, pulled out a double barrelled shotgun, and cocked both hammers back. The loud, audible double clicks carried clearly through the desert air.
The crowd stopped laughing immediately.  The young gunslinger heard the sounds, too, and he turned around very slowly.  The quiet was almost deafening.  The crowd watched as the young gunman stared at the old timer and the large gaping holes of those twin barrels.  He found it hard to swallow.
The barrels of the shotgun never wavered in the old man's hands.
The old man said, 'Son, did you ever kiss a mule's ass?'
The boy bully swallowed hard and said, 'No. But I've always wanted to.'
There are two lessons for us all here:
1. Don't waste ammunition. 
2. Don't mess with old people. 





slvemike4u -> RE: Mass killings and underlying reasons (4/11/2009 11:23:04 AM)

Your waiting for HIS diversion...The subject is,or at least, I thought it was Mass Killings....yeah I know,the underlying reasons for them.
Well underlying reason aside,sorry I can't help it, the body count will depend in great deal on the "tool" used .A knife ,even in the hands of someone with a "skill set" is unlikely to rack up the number of victims someone with an automatic "tool" might...and he doesn't even need to have that well a developed "skill set"
Awaiting further diversion.




subrob1967 -> RE: Mass killings and underlying reasons (4/11/2009 1:07:34 PM)

IMO The answer is simple, it's human nature to kill.
Humans do 2 things better than anything else, spawn, & kill each other.

It's just a matter of time before #2 overtakes #1.






popeye1250 -> RE: Mass killings and underlying reasons (4/11/2009 1:14:48 PM)

Sheesh Mike, it's so simple isn't it?
If we just outlawed guns these things would *never happen*, would they?




slvemike4u -> RE: Mass killings and underlying reasons (4/11/2009 1:21:00 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: subrob1967

IMO The answer is simple, it's human nature to kill.
Humans do 2 things better than anything else, spawn, & kill each other.

It's just a matter of time before #2 overtakes #1.



Brilliant ,simply brilliant.




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