RE: Defining Domination v. Abuse (Full Version)

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Lordandmaster -> RE: Defining Domination v. Abuse (1/30/2006 6:50:52 PM)

But I don't agree. I've been in relationships like that, and the other person only wanted more of it. If that fits under your definition of "abuse," then we're really just trotting out our opinions and putting them on display.

I get worried when OTHER PEOPLE take it upon themselves to determine what kind of relationships are abusive and what kind aren't. If you're not in the relationship, you have to be damned sure of what's going on before you can call something abusive.

quote:

ORIGINAL: FantMstr

And I agree that selfishness can be positive. I think we both agree that when selfishness in a relationship causes one to use another with no thought of that other, then it ceases to be positive.





Sensualips -> RE: Defining Domination v. Abuse (1/30/2006 7:35:34 PM)

Abuse is a pattern of behavior that causes someone to behave in ways that they do not freely choose, which arouses fear and is emotionally or physically harmful.

When I worked at a battered women's shelter, our training emphasized typical characteristics that made up an abusive situation. They considered abuse a pattern of behavior that establishes control over another person. This is a little vague and can't really be automatically applied toward a s/D relationship or even other relationships. For example, what about parents and their minor unmentionables?

Instead I would look at how the control/power/authority established and maintained? Is it by mutual consent and consistent expectations and consequences? I would look more at the other characteristics, like violence and isolate. I would also look at the patterns and history of the person.

Violence. I don't mean physical play or planned scenes or spontaneous roughness. By violence I mean out of control reactions. I mean physical expression of anger. I mean the threat of violence, even if that violence occurs rarely. Fear of potential violence.

Isolation. In some s/D relationships the D may have a lot of authority over who a person sees and what a person does. I would be concerned if a s was isolated and not encouraged or supported to maintain healthy relationships with family, friends, coworkers, or other lifestyle people. This is also cutting them off from other resources, whether it be financial (no access to $) or communication (no phone usage, email) or whatever.

History. Most abusers abused before. Most handle jealousy poorly, withdraw instead of communicate, blame instead of accept responsibility. Many have drug and alcohol problems. And even if a person is not abusive, you have a mess if you have these issues.




Leonidas -> RE: Defining Domination v. Abuse (1/31/2006 3:28:50 AM)

quote:

Now my question is how can yu tell the difference between Domination and abuse,because I've heard of some things that definately sound like abuse.


This depends on how you are using the word. Abuse is most often (in our culture) used as a normative term when it comes to people. It represents an agreed to standard of interpersonal behavior. When you use the word in that sense, "abuse" means whatever the group of people in question defines it to mean. Someone earlier in the thread mentioned that, at a battered women's shelter, they defined abuse as "a pattern of behavior that establishes control over another person" . If that is the standard, abuse and domination are the same thing and your question is moot. In other words, to the folks at the battered women's shelter, domination, and submitting to same, is wrong. Given the context, one would assume they're talking primarily about men establishing control over women with whom they are involved. If they extended their definition generally, they'd be anarchists, and I'm guessing they probably aren't.

For the vast majority of people who engage in "BDSM" the issue is resolved by differentiating what is acceptable (not abusive) during play (a scene) and what is acceptable as someone else said in this thread "in life". During play, just about anything goes that has been agreed to. Outside play, the standards for what constitutes abuse are roughly the same as for the general population, and tend to vary with the politics and ideology of the individual. Keeping this separation allows most folks who engage in BDSM to do "kinky stuff" like verbal or physical humilliation, beatings, etc. while sidstepping the issue of abuse altogether.

A small minority doesn't differentiate between "play" and "life". For them, dominance and submission go on all the time. If this is the case they've already run afowl of the folks down at the women's shelter. No two ways about it, by that standard, its abuse if one engages in behavior that establishes control over the other, which is pretty much the definition of dominance. Suprisingly, some folks who engage in BDSM would agree. For them, if it's done outside the play context (a scene), its wrong.

If you don't reject someone establishing dominance over someone else as wrong period, you probably need a different working definition of "abuse" than is used by the general population, the legal establishment, or the folks at the women's shelter. Behavior restriction of any kind, for example, would be abuse by generally held standards, especially if the party having their behavior restricted is female. Men having their behavior restricted by women far more culturally acceptable. If a women is overheard telling a man "you'd better come straight home after work" nothing is thought of it, or it is met with laughter and encouragement ("you tell him, girl!"). If a man tells a woman the same thing, eyebrows are raised.

Someone mentioned the term "power exchange" in another post. It's become a widely misused and misunderstood "buzzword". The original definition of "power exchange" was the exchange that takes place when one surrenders their personal autonomy, or power to make their own choices, in exchange for the other party assuming responsibility for them and the outcomes in their life. When that exchange is unconditional, you have a "total power exchange". So, how do you define abuse in these situations? We already know that its abusive by definition for the folks at the woman's shelter.

When you think about it, its not really all that hard. Abuse in the case of a "power exchange" can pretty much be defined as the abdication of the repsonsibilty that was assumed as part of the "exchange". In other words, if you are submitted to me, I must be responsible for you. What happens to you, what you achieve in life, and what kind of person you become is up to me, because you have surrendered your choices about that to me. If those outcomes can generally be characterized as positive (the submitted party is living a life at least as functional, happy, fulfilled, and healthy as they would otherwise), the repsonsibilty assumed is being executed, and no abuse is going on. Its actually a higher standard to meet (for the dominant party) than the general one, because benign neglect (not actively doing any harm) isn't good enough. We wouldn't, for example, generally consider a man ignoring his wife while she put on 10 dress sizes, withdrew into television, stopped talking to friends and family, and started having trouble getting up and down stairs to be abusive. He isn't actively doing any harm. For a dominant in a power exchange (or a slave owner), it probably is abusive, simply because the health and wellbeing of his slave is in his hands and he has the power (presumably) to effect a better outcome. If he does not, he wasn't up to the challenges of ownership, and probably had no business accepting the submission of another human in the first place.

Long post, I know, but didn't have time to craft a shorter one, and it's a good and important question.











BlouLady -> RE: Defining Domination v. Abuse (1/31/2006 6:17:26 AM)

Wow.
That WAS a long post , but well thought out , extermely intelligent , and very helpful.
It seems to be the general consensus that abuse is someone Taking away your rights without your consent, rather then you giving those rights to them. So in a nut shell it's a choice. If you chose it (whatever IT is in this context) then it's fulfillment, and if it's forced on you against you will then it's abuse. That's about the size of it ,yes?




RavenMuse -> RE: Defining Domination v. Abuse (1/31/2006 6:25:36 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: BlouLady
So in a nut shell it's a choice. If you chose it (whatever IT is in this context) then it's fulfillment, and if it's forced on you against you will then it's abuse. That's about the size of it ,yes?


I certainly would mostly agree with that barring one exception. If she was asking for something that I knew full well wasn't in her best interests, something that I knew would harm her, that she definatly couldn't cope with, even if it was something I would enjoy then I would consider the act abusive. But that is a judgement I can only make for and about myself.




BlouLady -> RE: Defining Domination v. Abuse (1/31/2006 6:45:53 AM)

OK I see what you mean...




desoutter -> RE: Defining Domination v. Abuse (1/31/2006 6:57:21 AM)

Domination vs Abuse... hmm
These two particular terms can have very different meanings to every individual person...
what one person considers abuse may well be accepted by the other as Domination...

I have my own understanding of each and what they mean to me However this cant be explained... or understood by anyone other than me. Each person in the world will define and shape their individual perceptions and tailor their needs and desires for expression around these.

I have seen very intense sessions that disturbed me a great deal... However I understand their participation - it just goes beyond my desire to partake.
I have also seen some wonderful sessions that are just plain boring to me - but exciting to them - These sessions just dont go far enough for my liking.

You get the point - It may very well be just how you feel about it and how you define one vs the other.
desoutter




IceyOne -> RE: Defining Domination v. Abuse (1/31/2006 7:49:29 AM)

Abuse can be defined in so many different ways. Every person you ask, will give a different definition. What may be abuse in your eyes, may be fun in another's. You are your own person; only you can decide for yourself what is abuse and what is not.




LuckyAlbatross -> RE: Defining Domination v. Abuse (1/31/2006 7:50:21 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Leonidas
A small minority doesn't differentiate between "play" and "life". For them, dominance and submission go on all the time.

To clarify: EVERYONE differentiates between play and life. No one plays all the time. Just because I'm still owned while I go to work, doesn't mean it's a good thing to show up looking like I just had a rape scene- unless my owner doesn't care about my job or future reputation.

I differentiate play time from "life time" only to show that things that we do in playtime are not ok to do in lifetime. It might be ok to scream at your slave what a worthless fucking cocksucker she is in a play environment, but it's certainly not ok to do in front of your 5 year old as you take her to school. That doesn't mean dominance and submission only occurs in one or the other and that it somehow stops and goes at the whim of those involved (though it can), merely that understanding context and how it changes perception is important in wiitwd.




mossy -> RE: Defining Domination v. Abuse (1/31/2006 8:43:36 AM)

quote:

Abuse, IMO, involves selfish use of another. That use is only for the "good" of the abuser with no positive reason concerning (or even consideration of)the the one it is done to.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
quote:

I agree with this but will note that a selfish act does not equal an abusive act. Selfishness can be positive, necessary and for the overall good.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
a selfish act does not necessarily equal an abusive act. However the "Selfish Use of another human being" with no positive reason or consideration to the one it is done to IS.




amayos -> RE: Defining Domination v. Abuse (1/31/2006 9:20:30 AM)

In reality, there is no single set of shirts that can clearly define the difference between domination and abuse. In my opinion, abuse and domination share very similar plains, especially when one embarks on the journey of being a BDSM enthusiast. Each answer will be different for each person. Or as some would say, it's all relative.




BeingChewsie -> RE: Defining Domination v. Abuse (1/31/2006 9:27:55 AM)

Wow. Thank you Master Leonidas, this is an excellent explanation of the difference between abuse and domination for those of us in enslavement relationships. I hope it doesn't get lost in the trees here. This is really a worthwhile read. Thank you again.






quote:

ORIGINAL: Leonidas

quote:

Now my question is how can yu tell the difference between Domination and abuse,because I've heard of some things that definately sound like abuse.


This depends on how you are using the word. Abuse is most often (in our culture) used as a normative term when it comes to people. It represents an agreed to standard of interpersonal behavior. When you use the word in that sense, "abuse" means whatever the group of people in question defines it to mean. Someone earlier in the thread mentioned that, at a battered women's shelter, they defined abuse as "a pattern of behavior that establishes control over another person" . If that is the standard, abuse and domination are the same thing and your question is moot. In other words, to the folks at the battered women's shelter, domination, and submitting to same, is wrong. Given the context, one would assume they're talking primarily about men establishing control over women with whom they are involved. If they extended their definition generally, they'd be anarchists, and I'm guessing they probably aren't.

For the vast majority of people who engage in "BDSM" the issue is resolved by differentiating what is acceptable (not abusive) during play (a scene) and what is acceptable as someone else said in this thread "in life". During play, just about anything goes that has been agreed to. Outside play, the standards for what constitutes abuse are roughly the same as for the general population, and tend to vary with the politics and ideology of the individual. Keeping this separation allows most folks who engage in BDSM to do "kinky stuff" like verbal or physical humilliation, beatings, etc. while sidstepping the issue of abuse altogether.

A small minority doesn't differentiate between "play" and "life". For them, dominance and submission go on all the time. If this is the case they've already run afowl of the folks down at the women's shelter. No two ways about it, by that standard, its abuse if one engages in behavior that establishes control over the other, which is pretty much the definition of dominance. Suprisingly, some folks who engage in BDSM would agree. For them, if it's done outside the play context (a scene), its wrong.

If you don't reject someone establishing dominance over someone else as wrong period, you probably need a different working definition of "abuse" than is used by the general population, the legal establishment, or the folks at the women's shelter. Behavior restriction of any kind, for example, would be abuse by generally held standards, especially if the party having their behavior restricted is female. Men having their behavior restricted by women far more culturally acceptable. If a women is overheard telling a man "you'd better come straight home after work" nothing is thought of it, or it is met with laughter and encouragement ("you tell him, girl!"). If a man tells a woman the same thing, eyebrows are raised.

Someone mentioned the term "power exchange" in another post. It's become a widely misused and misunderstood "buzzword". The original definition of "power exchange" was the exchange that takes place when one surrenders their personal autonomy, or power to make their own choices, in exchange for the other party assuming responsibility for them and the outcomes in their life. When that exchange is unconditional, you have a "total power exchange". So, how do you define abuse in these situations? We already know that its abusive by definition for the folks at the woman's shelter.

When you think about it, its not really all that hard. Abuse in the case of a "power exchange" can pretty much be defined as the abdication of the repsonsibilty that was assumed as part of the "exchange". In other words, if you are submitted to me, I must be responsible for you. What happens to you, what you achieve in life, and what kind of person you become is up to me, because you have surrendered your choices about that to me. If those outcomes can generally be characterized as positive (the submitted party is living a life at least as functional, happy, fulfilled, and healthy as they would otherwise), the repsonsibilty assumed is being executed, and no abuse is going on. Its actually a higher standard to meet (for the dominant party) than the general one, because benign neglect (not actively doing any harm) isn't good enough. We wouldn't, for example, generally consider a man ignoring his wife while she put on 10 dress sizes, withdrew into television, stopped talking to friends and family, and started having trouble getting up and down stairs to be abusive. He isn't actively doing any harm. For a dominant in a power exchange (or a slave owner), it probably is abusive, simply because the health and wellbeing of his slave is in his hands and he has the power (presumably) to effect a better outcome. If he does not, he wasn't up to the challenges of ownership, and probably had no business accepting the submission of another human in the first place.

Long post, I know, but didn't have time to craft a shorter one, and it's a good and important question.













BlouLady -> RE: Defining Domination v. Abuse (1/31/2006 10:20:38 AM)

I agree with BC. To everyone whose intrested they should read Leonidas post




desoutter -> RE: Defining Domination v. Abuse (1/31/2006 11:14:44 AM)


quote:

Leonidas

Outstanding




Leonidas -> RE: Defining Domination v. Abuse (1/31/2006 11:22:58 AM)

quote:

To clarify: EVERYONE differentiates between play and life.


No, not everyone does.

quote:

I differentiate play time from "life time" only to show that things that we do in playtime are not ok to do in lifetime. It might be ok to scream at your slave what a worthless fucking cocksucker she is in a play environment, but it's certainly not ok to do in front of your 5 year old as you take her to school.


I don't. I wouldn't call my slave a worthless cocksucker unless I meant it, and even if I thought it, I still might not say it. Being a responsible owner sometimes means thinking about the long term effect you want to achieve instead of acting on a short term impulse.

Don't get me wrong, there is nothing wrong with setting up a context that says "alright, I'm about to call you a worthless cocksucker, but I don't really mean it, it's just playing" and then doing it, if it floats your boat. Some of us have little to no interest in scene-playing like that. D/s is more about what we are than something we like to do sometimes. Frankly, I'd rather be out sailing my boat or riding my bike or throwing a football around with my boys than calling someone a worthless cocksucker. Just not much charge in that for me. Sorry. I do enjoy owning female slaves, but I see no reason to put a play context around anything that transpires between us. Whatever happens is genuine, and that's just how I prefer it.

Edana had a friend over the other day that we've seen in a social setting before. This is the first time she's been to the house. After a few hours she pulled edana aside and said "you mean you're like this ALL THE TIME?". I guess she thought that we had our game faces on when she met us before. She thought wrong.

I'm a little suprised at you. You ought to know by now that there is no such thing as "everyone" in this life.





LuckyAlbatross -> RE: Defining Domination v. Abuse (1/31/2006 12:36:23 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Leonidas
Sorry. I do enjoy owning female slaves, but I see no reason to put a play context around anything that transpires between us. Whatever happens is genuine, and that's just how I prefer it.

Yes I know you guys don't do bdsm kink. That doesn't mean that what happens in bdsm kink isn't "real" it means that it's set up within a specific context. And how you define things changes depending on the context.

I don't need to be in a scene to make it ok to be called a whore. However, I know that there are still appropriate places for that depending on the consequences of its usage.

quote:

I'm a little suprised at you. You ought to know by now that there is no such thing as "everyone" in this life.

I know that everyone changes behavior based on context, that everyone has specific behaviors they consider appropriate based on specific contexts. That was and remains my point.




NastyAngel -> RE: Defining Domination v. Abuse (1/31/2006 1:12:35 PM)

I was in a relationship with a former Master and Mistress and when I entered into the lifestyle, I knew little to nothing about it and made the mistake of taking on the first Master that showed an interest in me. I went to live with him like two months later I think it was and at first it was okay.

I had gone into the relationship with certain ideas of what I wanted but it ended up very differently. I went there, thinking I'd be a sex slave among other things but ended up just doing their housework with an occasional flogging, cropping, etc.

Anyway, I was there for a year and at the end, I decided I wanted to leave and I was talking to this Master I knew and askinig him how to go about things and also talking to this so called Mistress and the Master and her were friends.

I was new, I didn't know and perhaps went about it the wrong way but they agreed to help and I went to live with the Mistress after the Master picked me up after packing my things. I was going to leave without anyone knowing, mainly because I didn't want hurt feelings or confrontations but that didn't happen and things began to blow up.

Mistress came in and things went from bad to worse and she ranted and raved and told me to leave, etc. So I left Colorado with only what I could take with me on the bus and I had a LOT of stuff. Don't recall what I did with the stuff that I couldn't take but later learned former Master and Mistress took it as their own.

Anyway, I'd been there for like two weeks in Casper Wyoming and was informed that Master and Mistress were coming up there the next day. The next day, they showed up and I was worried and later that night, they informed me that I was in for it.

Shortly after, I was forced to strip and I was then beaten for a total of 4 1/2 hours to 5 with a paddle, crop, cat o 9 tail and they broke the crop on me. If I moved, I was beaten, if I said something I was beaten and I was being beaten by a total of 3 people.

In between I was made to crawl on my hands and knees to the bathroom and I was ordered to sit in the tub and then former Master pissed on me. This was with marks and some skin was broken open.

After they grew tired of beating me, I was forced to sleep on the floor by them and they had sex while I lay there awake, wondering what was to become of me. The next day, I was taken BACK to Colorado and made to live with them for a week while I somewhat healed and made to do work.

They fed me little except sugarless, saltless oatmeal three times a day and was only allowed a little water. I worked from the time I got up to the time I went to bed and forced to sleep in a small crawlspace, the size of a cupboard and during awake times, I was verbally abused and told I was nothing.

When I was finally released, I was taken to the bus station with only one suitcase and the clothes on my back and had to pay the Mistress's slave $40 for gas to go a total of 30 miles and there I stayed the night outside the bus station because the bus station was closed when I got there and then the next day I was able to get my ticket. I had called someone and they paid for my ticket because former Masteer and Mistress took every cent I had.

After I got home, I took pics of my bruises and I had them for nearly 3 months after and still have scars. My life was threatened if I pressed charges and I had nightmares for months. It took 5 years for me to even entertain the idea of being in this lifestyle again and now that I have, I have found TWO Master's who want me and will share me and they care.

They care about me, care about my needs and Master says that he is soon going to decide when I will go to him. When I do, I will be initiated as their slave and made theirs. This is the first time in 5 years I have had the desire to do this. I thought former Master and Mistress had killed that in me but now I see I do want this.

With the Master I have now, I realize he's the one I seek and the one I have been waiting for as well as my other Master. My first is who I belong to more but I do have 2. It gets confusing but I'm sure that will be cleared up once I am there. hehe. Thanks for listening to my rants.

My opinion, this was abuse and there's a BIG difference between domination and abuse and they crossed that line in so many ways.




Leonidas -> RE: Defining Domination v. Abuse (1/31/2006 1:12:43 PM)

quote:

That doesn't mean that what happens in bdsm kink isn't "real" it means that it's set up within a specific context.


Well, with the example that you gave (calling someone a degrading name) "real" would mean that you meant it, wouldn't it? I don't know about you, but if I really call someone a worthless cocksucker no matter the context, that means I'm just about done associating with them. If on the other hand, you set up a play context around it, aren't you saying, in effect "this isn't real, I'm just saying it to try to elicit a response from you that we both might enjoy"?


quote:

I know that everyone changes behavior based on context, that everyone has specific behaviors they consider appropriate based on specific contexts. That was and remains my point.


Oh, OK, on that we can agree. That's not what you said the first time though:

quote:

To clarify: EVERYONE differentiates between play and life. No one plays all the time.


Do these two statements square in your mind? It would seem you're suggesting that, for example, if I keep edana naked or scantily clad in the house, but I don't send her to work that way, I'm playing in the house? I don't think so, I think that I really do prefer her naked or scantily clad, and I dress her differently for work so that she won't get fired. The equivelent in your example would be if I really thought you were a worthless cocksucker, but held my tongue until nobody was around before screaming it at you, so as not to offend passers by or scare children, yes? I don't see appropriate (but genuine) behavior in context as remotely the same thing as doing things that you would otherwise find objectionable (or for the purposes of this thread abusive) because they are done in "play". Maybe I'm missing you somehow?







Leonidas -> RE: Defining Domination v. Abuse (1/31/2006 1:18:14 PM)

This story sounds too familliar. I think that a girl that I trained might have ended up with the same people. Contact me on the other side if you would, I'd like to put you in touch with her and see if they are one and the same.




Sartoris32801 -> RE: Defining Domination v. Abuse (1/31/2006 1:51:11 PM)




quote:

When you think about it, its not really all that hard. Abuse in the case of a "power exchange" can pretty much be defined as the abdication of the repsonsibilty that was assumed as part of the "exchange". In other words, if you are submitted to me, I must be responsible for you. What happens to you, what you achieve in life, and what kind of person you become is up to me, because you have surrendered your choices about that to me. If those outcomes can generally be characterized as positive (the submitted party is living a life at least as functional, happy, fulfilled, and healthy as they would otherwise), the repsonsibilty assumed is being executed, and no abuse is going on



I know it when I see it!
Excellent response Leonidas.

This is indeed the difference; however what if we do not abidicate our reponsibility, but for whatever reason, imcompetence, inexperience, the outcome(s) are not positive and one is left mentally and or physically damaged, is that abuse?

Sartoris




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