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beyond Obedience - 1/30/2006 8:51:59 AM   
IsleofLite


Posts: 7
Joined: 1/6/2005
Status: offline 		I had a sub tell me that she felt that I wanted her to go 'beyond obedience', and I laughed and told her she was right. When she pressed me to know what that was, what was there beyond obedience, silence was my only answer, for I wanted her to go there without my definition in hand. So I ask you, Oh continuum of sensualists, what do you think is 'beyond obedience'?
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RE: beyond Obedience - 1/30/2006 8:56:03 AM   
IronBear


Posts: 9008
Joined: 6/19/2005
From: Beenleigh, Qld, Australia
Status: offline 		To follow your direction and commands with a burning passion in her belly and a driving need to please you in all areas.

_____________________________

Iron Bear

Master of Bruin Cottage

http://www.bruincottage.org

Your attitude, words & actions are yours. Take responsibility for them and the consequences they incur.

D.I.L.L.I.G.A.F.

(in reply to IsleofLite)
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RE: beyond Obedience - 1/30/2006 8:59:33 AM   
thetammyjo


Posts: 6322
Joined: 9/8/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: IsleofLite

I had a sub tell me that she felt that I wanted her to go 'beyond obedience', and I laughed and told her she was right. When she pressed me to know what that was, what was there beyond obedience, silence was my only answer, for I wanted her to go there without my definition in hand. So I ask you, Oh continuum of sensualists, what do you think is 'beyond obedience'?


To understand one's owner/dominant so well that commands are no longer necessary. To be active in one's service.


_____________________________

Love, Peace, Hugs, Kisses, Whips & Chains,

TammyJo

Check out my website at http://www.thetammyjo.com Or www.tammyjoeckhart.com

And my LJ where I post fiction in progress if you "friend" me at http://thetammyjo.livejournal.com/

(in reply to IsleofLite)
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RE: beyond Obedience - 1/30/2006 9:04:37 AM   
NakedOnMyChain


Posts: 2431
Joined: 11/29/2004
From: Indiana
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: IsleofLite

So I ask you, Oh continuum of sensualists, what do you think is 'beyond obedience'?


I can take this two ways. The first implies constant subspace or a state of perpetual deep connection to a master in which you can anticipate his every desire. And unpopular as this opinion may be, impossible. I'm not saying you can't go beyond obedience, I'm simply saying that you can't live there. Eventually there is going to be something she doesn't want to do, and that generally snaps a sub out of it fairly quickly.

Now, on the other side of the coin, I could take it to mean that the submissive should be serving you because she genuinely enjoys it, and not merely out of a sense of duty. It implies that you want her to take care of her responsibilities, even the ones that do not please her, with enjoyment and gratitude because they please you. I think this view could work, as long as the lines of communication stay open. Make sure she's free to tell you her opinions on what she's doing and she'll tend to resent her unwanted tasks less.


Edited to add: Since you're not willing to define what you'd like your sub to do, I'm assuming that you're of the opinion that the first category is correct. Just keep in mind, it's wonderful to be that close, where a person can anticipate your many of your actions. However, she's your sub, not your psychic. You need to tell her or she'll likely be fumbling around trying to figure out what you mean.

< Message edited by NakedOnMyChain -- 1/30/2006 9:08:44 AM >

_____________________________

"Oh, it's torture, but I'm almost there."
~The Cure

"I ask for so little. Just fear me, love me, do as I say, and I will be your slave."
~The Labyrinth

(in reply to IsleofLite)
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RE: beyond Obedience - 1/30/2006 9:17:23 AM   
MissAli


Posts: 106
Joined: 1/19/2006
Status: offline 		Getting to the place where one loses ones self to the other. Suddenly you're merely a part of them, an extension. It's quite scary infact--all the better.

(in reply to NakedOnMyChain)
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RE: beyond Obedience - 1/30/2006 9:30:52 AM   
LuckyAlbatross


Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline 		To me it means being able to serve and be of service on your own will and actions, not just at the end of an order. Some doms and subs are really "obedience oriented" in that they love giving and receiving orders and acting within those confines.

Others are oriented in other ways- they want slaves to anticipate service, to be creative in their service, to go beyond just an order and see the full picture and how their position in it can be better used towards that picture.

That's how I interpret it.


_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

(in reply to IsleofLite)
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RE: beyond Obedience - 1/30/2006 9:33:49 AM   
MsIncognito


Posts: 742
Joined: 5/24/2005
Status: offline 		Question for you: are you OK with her going somewhere that isn't what you want or how you define it? If you're not OK with that, you should probably give her your definition, dontcha think?

(in reply to IsleofLite)
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RE: beyond Obedience - 1/30/2006 9:36:34 AM   
MistressFire70


Posts: 378
Joined: 7/25/2004
From: North Carolina
Status: offline 		Surrender.

My answer has the usual assumptions of safety, healthy relationships, etc. etc.

Fire


_____________________________

you have come to a great chasm. Jump. It's not as wide as you think.

(in reply to IsleofLite)
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RE: beyond Obedience - 1/30/2006 9:43:46 AM   
yourMissTress


Posts: 1665
Joined: 6/14/2005
From: Nashville, TN
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: IsleofLite

I had a sub tell me that she felt that I wanted her to go 'beyond obedience', and I laughed and told her she was right. When she pressed me to know what that was, what was there beyond obedience, silence was my only answer, for I wanted her to go there without my definition in hand. So I ask you, Oh continuum of sensualists, what do you think is 'beyond obedience'?



IMO, obedience is following direct orders. Beyond obedience is doing what the Dom/me wants without direct orders.

Example: I come home at night to find my home freshly cleaned, candles lit, flowers on the table, and spaghetti carbonara on the table. This is not because I left explicit instructions for him to have these things done, but because over the course of time my sub has learned that I like a candles, I like flowers, I like a clean house, I like italian, and I like to be surprised with romantic gestures. This to me is beyond obedience. It doesn't have to be big things, it's a matter of doing some things without being told.

_____________________________

Tress


"If you have to tell people that you are a lady, you are not." My Grandmother


(in reply to IsleofLite)
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RE: beyond Obedience - 1/30/2006 9:58:14 AM   
Mercnbeth


Posts: 11766
Status: offline
quote:

what do you think is 'beyond obedience'?


The obedience toward "Big Brother" documented in Orwell's 1984. Where the thought of disobedience was illegal. The goal of Big Brother was to make disobedience impossible to comprehend. I'd say that goes "beyond obedience".

"1984" is an excellent source for those interested in "mental training". It's on my recommended reading list for understanding the concept.

If interested, you can read it for free at this site: http://www.online-literature.com/orwell/1984/

(in reply to IsleofLite)
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RE: beyond Obedience - 1/30/2006 10:38:24 AM   
brigidsub


Posts: 18
Joined: 1/2/2006
From: Washington
Status: offline
quote:

Surrender.


Respectfully, i ask- To What, or Whom?

Thank your for the short answer, Mistress of Fire, and the long, burning question that it both answered and prompted one to ask for more answers


brigidsub

(in reply to Mercnbeth)
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RE: beyond Obedience - 1/30/2006 10:38:32 AM   
RiotGirl


Posts: 3149
Status: offline 		interesting. Beyond obediance. My first thought was when i personally consider Master wants me to go beyond obediance. Like controlling my reflexs. IE my startle reflex. Startle me and i will jump every time, startle me and have something coming towards me and i will make sure it doesnt touch me. Which i can understand as personally i dont enjoy leaving bruises all over him. heh. Same goes for being caned. When that cane lands, i jump. Visibly. Not far, but i jump. Telling me to "stay still" is more of a trial then being caned. (its abit startling when it lands)

Personally i find that beyond obediance. Its not the "obey" its going past my own personal reflexs. Its like changing an a piece of me. The depths of me, the subconscious of me to do his will.

Maybe what we are all saying is the same thinking about it.

by "beyond obediance" you want to take it from a conscious to the subconscious mind. While others say its not possible. i disagree. And i dont think you need subspace for it. i personally think that we do bits of it in every day life. when my man gets home from work i have a glass of arizona tea with ice in it waiting. Not because he tells me. But because its what i know he would want first thing. While this prolly isnt a very good example. Its a clue. Its a process. Which can be applied many different ways.

Then of course there is internal enslavement. which you could also mean instead

(in reply to MsIncognito)
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RE: beyond Obedience - 1/30/2006 11:09:34 AM   
BitaTruble


Posts: 9779
Joined: 1/12/2006
From: Texas
Status: offline
quote:

Oh continuum of sensualists, what do you think is 'beyond obedience'?


Well, a dog can be trained to be obedient, so it doesn't seem like such a big deal that a submissive can as well. Rather than define the term, which would only be 'my' view of it, I would rather explain how I got to 'beyond obedience,' in my own service to Himself.

I've always held the opinion that you cannot serve well, someone whom you do not know. Communication, of course, is essential. Himself allowed me to ask hundreds of questions so that I knew, yes - his likes and dislikes, but well beyond that, to understand how his brain processess information, to see through his eyes and to know his ideas, to know his heart, his manner. I used to call it a 'brain pick'. He knew that if I asked him if I could pick his brain, the questions were going to start pouring out of me in short order. He didn't 'always' say yes, but most often he did. I observed. Facial expressions, the way his calf muscle flexes when he takes a step, the tilt of his head when he made a point about something he holds dear. I touched him, I placed my hand over his beating heart when he was excited about something or when he was upset to feel the rythyms change. I learned every bump, scar and scratch on his body, the way he reacted to my touching them, the shivers of my nails gently on his arm when we're at a movie, so that I would know in an instant, at any given time of day whether he wished to be touched at all. I tasted him and smelled him, so those would always be instantly recognizable to me, even in the midst of deep sensory deprivation, even if blind and deaf, I can pick out Master in a room of people. The strong cigar that lingers after he's done smoking, the salt when he's done a work out, how he smells right after a shower but before he's dried off.

All those things, he never asked of me. He never ordered me to do. He inspired me to want to do them because I wanted to serve him, and the man he is, yes, on occasion he commands me, but most often he compels me, unspoken though it may be, to serve him as he desires I should.

Celeste

< Message edited by BitaTruble -- 1/30/2006 11:12:31 AM >

_____________________________

"Oh, so it's just like
Rock, paper, scissors."

He laughed. "You are the wisest woman I know."


(in reply to IsleofLite)
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RE: beyond Obedience - 1/30/2006 11:56:05 AM   
xxblushesxx


Posts: 9318
Joined: 11/3/2005
From: Kentucky
Status: offline 		The answer that came to my mind was similar to Lucky's...

Not only to follow directions and orders, but to serve on one's own volition. To anticipate what needs may be met, or what would please your master, without always being given that direction.

(in reply to BitaTruble)
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RE: beyond Obedience - 1/30/2006 12:12:01 PM   
IndigoDadesi


Posts: 185
Status: offline 		My first reaction to OP was "What? You cant just keep things from your sub. There has to be open comunication. Shes not a mind reader, jees!"

Then I realized I do the exact same thing when training. Sure there is open comunication too, but Im careful with what I say and some things I do not say, because they don't need to be said.

I require the same as the OP of my slave, though we are not there yet. And I think that through training there is a certain amount of mental training (almost like brain washing) involved. When a sub gets to the point where they dont consider disobedience at all, where serving is a reflex rather than a choice...then you have beyond obedience.

(in reply to IsleofLite)
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RE: beyond Obedience - 1/30/2006 1:15:05 PM   
LuckyAlbatross


Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: IndigoDadesi
When a sub gets to the point where they dont consider disobedience at all, where serving is a reflex rather than a choice...then you have beyond obedience.

There's a difference between "choosing obedience" and "not considering disobedience"

Most dominants prefer that their slaves retain their thinking processes, CONSIDER the orders being given, and respond with possible useful information- alternatives, possible consequences, general feedback, etc.

It really depends. Some masters want reflexive obedience in some areas but reflective obedience in others. (And please god don't tell me I coined a term because then I will kill myself).

Considering what you are obeying does not mean you are considering DISobeying.

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

(in reply to IndigoDadesi)
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RE: beyond Obedience - 1/30/2006 1:18:33 PM   
IndigoDadesi


Posts: 185
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross


quote:

ORIGINAL: IndigoDadesi
When a sub gets to the point where they dont consider disobedience at all, where serving is a reflex rather than a choice...then you have beyond obedience.

There's a difference between "choosing obedience" and "not considering disobedience"

Most dominants prefer that their slaves retain their thinking processes, CONSIDER the orders being given, and respond with possible useful information- alternatives, possible consequences, general feedback, etc.

It really depends. Some masters want reflexive obedience in some areas but reflective obedience in others. (And please god don't tell me I coined a term because then I will kill myself).

Considering what you are obeying does not mean you are considering DISobeying.


Very good point LA. Thank you for clarifying that.

...reflexive obedience...very catchy!

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)
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RE: beyond Obedience - 1/30/2006 1:34:54 PM   
IrishMist


Posts: 7480
Joined: 11/17/2005
Status: offline
quote:

Surrender.


This is what I would define it as also. Total and complete surrender, without thought.

_____________________________

If I said something to offend you, please tell me what it was so that I can say it again later.


(in reply to MistressFire70)
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RE: beyond Obedience - 1/30/2006 1:39:12 PM   
LuckyAlbatross


Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: IrishMist
This is what I would define it as also. Total and complete surrender, without thought.

Is total and complete surrender possible without thought?

Is total and complete surrender possible with though?

Is total and complete surrender more or less meaninglful if it is without thought?



_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

(in reply to IrishMist)
Profile   Post #: 19
RE: beyond Obedience - 1/30/2006 1:48:02 PM   
slavejali


Posts: 2918
Status: offline 		To be beyond obedience:

I don't *obey* Master all the time yet my desire to please Him and to obey is that which drives me. I think that desire to please is beyond obedience. Obedience in and of itself could be driven by various motivational factors that dont necessarily amount to submission.

He can deal with the times I may not obey for whatever reason through his role of Dominant and Master, yet if my desire to please was not there, that would be difficult if not impossible for a Dominant to control.




(in reply to IndigoDadesi)
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