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RE: beyond Obedience - 2/2/2006 1:39:47 PM

KnightofMists

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quote:

ORIGINAL: RavenMuse

quote:

ORIGINAL: KnightofMists
mmmmmmm and just how does that change anything? Linking Self-Acceptance with obedience is still a trap to a submissive no matter if it's a long-term relationship or a new one.

If it is someone with a need to submit, then isn't part of accepting themself, accepting that need?

mmmmm so.... If you Accept your "NEED TO SUBMIT" you will obey! and go to the mighty of places called "Beyond Obedience"

mmmmmm sounds very much like... If your a submssive... you will obey!

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An Optimal relationship is achieved when the individuals do what is best for themselves and their relationship.

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Post #: 41

RE: beyond Obedience - 2/2/2006 1:54:31 PM

RavenMuse

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quote:

ORIGINAL: KnightofMists
mmmmmm sounds very much like... If your a submssive... you will obey!

Not exactly. You accept you have a need to obay.... but that also means finding someone who can bring that out and fullfill that need. I think you are taking it as a tie to that relationship. I don't, if that relatioship can't build the trust and enviroment for her to reach that level then her need would be to seek another that does.

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Post #: 42

RE: beyond Obedience - 2/2/2006 2:28:08 PM

KnightofMists

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quote:

ORIGINAL: RavenMuse

quote:

ORIGINAL: KnightofMists
mmmmmm sounds very much like... If your a submssive... you will obey!

Not exactly. You accept you have a need to obay.... but that also means finding someone who can bring that out and fullfill that need. I think you are taking it as a tie to that relationship. I don't, if that relatioship can't build the trust and enviroment for her to reach that level then her need would be to seek another that does.

mmmmmmmm but we not talking about "fulfilling a specific need" IE "need to Obey". We are talking about Labeling this Acceptance of the "Need to obey" as "Beyond Obedience" and linking this Acceptance to obedience is a trap for submissives.

Talking about how to fulfilling the Need to obey is another issue all together. But, attempting to glorify these fullfillments with ego-boosting glorifing labels will not do anything towards Self-actualizing the relationship into a fulfilling experience for those involved.

_____________________________

Knight of Mists

An Optimal relationship is achieved when the individuals do what is best for themselves and their relationship.

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Post #: 43

RE: beyond Obedience - 2/2/2006 2:43:51 PM

RavenMuse

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It is a matter of labling and the issue was what you understand if someone states their need as beyond obedience.

To me, obedience is what I gave my Med Corps RSM when he gave me an order, or my charge nurse when he assigned me a specific objective to meet with one of the residents under my care when I worked at the hospital. I did so because I had agreed to when I signed on the dotted line or when I accepted the job offer, but I certainly didn't have any internal need to.

so I see no problem in accepting 'beyond' obedience as having a psychological 'need' to obey

< Message edited by RavenMuse -- 2/2/2006 2:45:37 PM >

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Post #: 44

RE: beyond Obedience - 2/2/2006 3:13:59 PM

IrishMist

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/grabs a bottle, and sits back to watch the discussion unfold

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Post #: 45

RE: beyond Obedience - 2/2/2006 3:23:01 PM

Arpig

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What i meant, and thought i had expressed, was that to go "beyond obedience" would be when the sub obeyed when there was no chance of their disobedience being found out. When obedience had become so ingrained that it was the natural state for the sub.

However, what I did not say was that this was an especially desirable state, but the OP did ask for our opinions on how to define "beyond obedience".

Myself I do not expect blind obedience from my sub, we do have and expect to continue to have arguements and disagreements about all sorts of things. Lord knows I get my share of dumb-ass ideas, and can think up some highly impractical tasks or commands. I expect my sub to use her mind, it is after all what most attracted me to her in the first place.

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Post #: 46

RE: beyond Obedience - 2/2/2006 3:25:24 PM

KnightofMists

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quote:

ORIGINAL: RavenMuse

It is a matter of labling and the issue was what you understand if someone states their need as beyond obedience.

To me, obedience is what I gave my Med Corps RSM when he gave me an order, or my charge nurse when he assigned me a specific objective to meet with one of the residents under my care when I worked at the hospital. I did so because I had agreed to when I signed on the dotted line or when I accepted the job offer, but I certainly didn't have any internal need to.

so I see no problem in accepting 'beyond' obedience as having a psychological 'need' to obey

mmmmmm your really aren't saying anything here are you... Other than you think it's ok but can't say why!

Like I said....

quote:

mmmmm so.... If you Accept your "NEED TO SUBMIT" you will obey! and go to the mighty of places called "Beyond Obedience"

mmmmmm sounds very much like... If your a submssive... you will obey!

buying into this whole concept of "beyond obedience" is nothing more than a trap. Acceptance of the need to submit is only a small part of self acceptance of who a person is. Linking that one is "beyond obedient" if they accept their need to submit sets the submissive up to being manipulated. There is alot of reasons why one should not be obedient and it has not reflection on acceptance of one's need to submit. Endangerment to ones' well-being is a great reason to be disobedient and doesn't reflect that a person doesn't Accept the "need to submit"

Accepting this link "acceptance to the Need to submit" with being "obedience" only sets the submissie up to fail. For they are not connected. They often occur in relation to each other. But, being obedient as you so kindly point out doesn't reflect that one is "Accepting the Need to Submit" Sometimes it is just doing one's duty!

Sometimes it it just habit to a decision to obey that has long past. My alandra comes to the Master Bedroom everytime she hears my shower going. She makes the bed and puts out my clothes. She has a Mocha ready for me and brings it to me when i go into my den. None of this needs to be told to her on a daily basis. Infact, i have told her to do this in years. I told her once and that is all. She doesn't ask or told what clothes I want to wear, she just does it. This nothing special, this is not glorified with some label like "beyond" Obedience. It's simple obedience nothing more nothing less. It's is not a reflection that she "accepts her need to submit" or even that she "accepts her need to please" But these acts that she and kyra do, are reflections of how they satisify these needs! Being obedient to my will allows them to satisify these needs. Caring for my wants/desires allows them to satisfy these needs and wants of their's. Simple intrinsic motivations of their own. It's doesn't reflect they are X if they are obedient. It doesn't reflect they are "Beyond" obedience. They are only satisifing there own needs/wants and are not looking for glorifed labels to boost their ego!

I will not label them as "beyond" obedience. I will not allow the thinking process to exist in that they must "accept who they are to Obey" or they are some how less than "beyond obedience" or even obedient. They will listen to their Intrinsic motivations and cause them to search for the ways to fulfill these motivations. Alot of these motivations are fulfilled in a relatioship with myself. Acceptance of these motivations will allow them to find a greater happiness. But, Accepting themselve doesn't mean they "WILL be Obedient" or that they are "beyond obedience" For Acceptance of self is never a fix point. We change and evolve. What we accept as our motivations today can be changed tomorrow. What will result in fulfillment today, may be obedience... tomorrow they may need to be disobedient to fulfil themselves. Obviously, a relationship will be much more successful if the Intrinsic Motivations of both sides of the coin are compatiable. It has nothing to do with obedience!... obedience is only a result of two or more individuals that come together whose Intrinsic Motivations are compatiable!

_____________________________

Knight of Mists

An Optimal relationship is achieved when the individuals do what is best for themselves and their relationship.

(in reply to RavenMuse)

Post #: 47

RE: beyond Obedience - 2/2/2006 3:35:13 PM

KnightofMists

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Arpig

What i meant, and thought i had expressed, was that to go "beyond obedience" would be when the sub obeyed when there was no chance of their disobedience being found out. When obedience had become so ingrained that it was the natural state for the sub.

However, what I did not say was that this was an especially desirable state, but the OP did ask for our opinions on how to define "beyond obedience".

Myself I do not expect blind obedience from my sub, we do have and expect to continue to have arguements and disagreements about all sorts of things. Lord knows I get my share of dumb-ass ideas, and can think up some highly impractical tasks or commands. I expect my sub to use her mind, it is after all what most attracted me to her in the first place.

Nods...

I agree that Blind obedience is not a desirable state. It reflects little of a submissive... and promoting this idea is a dangerous road for a submissive.

I can appreciate that a submissive will need to consider some actions carefully that is required by the Dominant. Some actions may only required no considerations at all and becomes a part of habit. But, the fact is the submissive at one point or another has considered to be obedient or not to the Dominant. Some decisions of obedience is a life long decision, no need to reconsider or reflect on it. More times than not, these are the things a submissive feels... they are just responding to their own percieved need of their Dominant. I will not glorify obedience and I will not glorify one following their intrinsic motivations! But, in the end, the submissive must accept the responsibility of the choices they make, be it they do so once or mulitple times choosing to act in obediently to the Dominant.

_____________________________

Knight of Mists

An Optimal relationship is achieved when the individuals do what is best for themselves and their relationship.

(in reply to Arpig)

Post #: 48

RE: beyond Obedience - 2/2/2006 4:20:18 PM

LadiesBladewing

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quote:

ORIGINAL: IsleofLite

I had a sub tell me that she felt that I wanted her to go 'beyond obedience', and I laughed and told her she was right. When she pressed me to know what that was, what was there beyond obedience, silence was my only answer, for I wanted her to go there without my definition in hand. So I ask you, Oh continuum of sensualists, what do you think is 'beyond obedience'?

Beyond obedience is peace and grace.

Lady Zephyr

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Post #: 49

RE: beyond Obedience - 2/2/2006 4:34:00 PM

RavenMuse

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quote:

ORIGINAL: KnightofMists
mmmmmm your really aren't saying anything here are you... Other than you think it's ok but can't say why!

Because you may not understand what was said, doesn't mean nothing was said. Possibly a cultural gap from communication crossing the pond. Let me try and rephrase it.

I signed up with the med corp out of a sense of duty, not a need to obey. I obeyed orders as part of that. Obeyance without the 'need' to obey... simple, straight forward obedience.

If someone has a deep seated need to obay and finds someone safe, sane, consentual who can allow her to fullfil that need then I can see how that could be labled "Beyond' Obedience.

That was what was being asked by the OP.

You however choose to set a value judgement into the question, that was not what was being asked, nor was it part of the answers given. We where asked "what do you think is 'beyond obedience'?" not "and is it a possitive thing or not?"

(in reply to KnightofMists)

Post #: 50

RE: beyond Obedience - 2/2/2006 4:41:55 PM

KnightofMists

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quote:

ORIGINAL: KnightofMists
mmmmmm your really aren't saying anything here are you... Other than you think it's ok but can't say why!

quote:

Because you may not understand what was said, doesn't mean nothing was said. Possibly a cultural gap from communication crossing the pond. Let me try and rephrase it.

I signed up with the med corp out of a sense of duty, not a need to obey. I obeyed orders as part of that. Obeyance without the 'need' to obey... simple, straight forward obedience.

If someone has a deep seated need to obay and finds someone safe, sane, consentual who can allow her to fullfil that need then I can see how that could be labled "Beyond' Obedience.

yup and that's why I said

quote:

Accepting this link "acceptance to the Need to submit" with being "obedience" only sets the submissie up to fail. For they are not connected. They often occur in relation to each other. But, being obedient as you so kindly point out doesn't reflect that one is "Accepting the Need to Submit" Sometimes it is just doing one's duty!

Take note - the "duty" party. As i said before thou.. you really are not saying much about actaully answering the question I asked.

quote:

That was what was being asked by the OP.

You however choose to set a value judgement into the question, that was not what was being asked, nor was it part of the answers given. We where asked "what do you think is 'beyond obedience'?" not "and is it a possitive thing or not?"

I answered what I think "beyond obedience is... A Trap!

< Message edited by KnightofMists -- 2/2/2006 4:43:18 PM >

_____________________________

Knight of Mists

An Optimal relationship is achieved when the individuals do what is best for themselves and their relationship.

(in reply to RavenMuse)

Post #: 51

RE: beyond Obedience - 2/2/2006 4:54:57 PM

Arpig

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quote:

I answered what I think "beyond obedience is... A Trap!

I tend to agree, especially if it is held up as an ideal by which to measure the degree or value of a subs submission.

_____________________________

Big man! Pig Man!
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Why do they leave out the letter b on "Garage Sale" signs?

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(in reply to KnightofMists)

Post #: 52

RE: beyond Obedience - 2/3/2006 9:33:16 AM

IsleofLite

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Arpig/RavenMuse/KnightofMist Humm, yes all well said on the subject of "obedience, within all the ranges of submission and obedience, all good comments, but I guess my original thought was is this an end, a destination? When one gets to obedience, one becomes totally obedient do they just stay there or is there still a growth in them, that sets in motion a modulation to some kind of personal submissive higher state that supercedes the obedience you now own and expect from your submissive?

(in reply to Arpig)

Post #: 53

RE: beyond Obedience - 2/3/2006 9:57:48 AM

Arpig

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obedience is not the end, it is the method of achieving the end. The end is submission to the will of the dominant (to whatever degree is good for the two of you).

I don't see obedience as growth per se. perhaps what you are getting at is a level of submission that goes beyond simply doing what she is told. If that is the case then what you need are two things...time and communication.

She needs time to learn you, to grow to understand you, and thus be able to know what would or would not please you, and you need time to do the same thing.

And you need to communicate as well, so she knows what you want, and so you know what it is she thinks you want.

Given enough of both of these she will be able to anticipate much of what you want. KofM relates how his bed is turned down and readied when he gets into the shower, or how his favourite beverage is brought to him when he goes into his den to work, he also states that this has been ongoing for a long time, and he did state his desire for these things long ago.....time & communication. His submissives know him well enough now to know the sort of things he expects, and can thus do them without having to be told to.

_____________________________

Big man! Pig Man!
Ha Ha...Charade you are!

Why do they leave out the letter b on "Garage Sale" signs?

CM's #1 All-Time Also-Ran

(in reply to IsleofLite)

Post #: 54

RE: beyond Obedience - 2/3/2006 1:34:08 PM

KnightofMists

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quote:

ORIGINAL: IsleofLite

Arpig/RavenMuse/KnightofMist Humm, yes all well said on the subject of "obedience, within all the ranges of submission and obedience, all good comments, but I guess my original thought was is this an end, a destination? When one gets to obedience, one becomes totally obedient do they just stay there or is there still a growth in them, that sets in motion a modulation to some kind of personal submissive higher state that supercedes the obedience you now own and expect from your submissive?

First - you make the assumption that obedience can be total!

I do not see obedience as ever being total. For obedience to be total, a submissive would have experienced ever possibility with the Dominant and would comply to the will of such Dominant. One can get to state that the expectation is the submissive will be obedient in all things. But, all things expected is not all things tried!

IE. A submissive I would hope wouldn't be obedient to a Dominant in an area that would be harmful the submissive! This in of itself disqualifies that "Total Obedience" can ever exist.

Yes, I recognize that a "Good" Dominant wouldn't ask there submissive to do something that is harmful to them. Well even "Good" ones make mistakes... does a person suggest that Dominants are prefect and would never make this mistake! Absolutes are really applicable!

Now my example highligths a thought of importance. Obedience is required by both submissive and dominant.

When two individuals enter into the relationship they establish expectations of each other. In some cases the dominant must adhere to certain limits established by the submissive. This compliance to the limits is a form of obedience!

Definitions:

Obedience (n) 1 a : an act or instance of obeying b : the quality or state of being obedient

obedient (adj) submissive to the restraint or command of authority : willing to obey

Every time a Dominant person obeys a limit they are being obedient... for isn't a limit just another form of restraint! Often these restraints are place upon ourselves as Dominants. IE. My Code that governs me "Do thy Will, Harm none!" This code like a the golden rule is a restraint I place upon myself. I am obedient to this code, I am Obedient to myself! For those that claim Master/slave relationships, meaning Master having total authority over the slave, I would be very concerned if such Master didn't have a specific code/golden rule that he held himself too!

There is no state beyond obedience! Obedience is nothing more than a state of being obedient. Being obedient is the willingness to obey! To obey is simply to obey. I believe Arpig is correct in suggestion that would you seem to refer to is in fact is the growth of submission! As I stated at the start of this post, Obedience can't be Total because you can't experience all things. But, on the journey of a Dominant expanding their authority and exercising their will upon the submissive, there is a the ever occuring opportunites of acts of obedience to occur. These opportunities for a submissive to exercise their submission and be obedient doens't grow obedience, it doesn't take them beyond obedience, It grows their submission. In fact, this interaction is the growth of D/s dynamics within the relationship. There is no "beyond obedience", however the growth of the D/s dynamics of the relationship can have wonderful effects upon both Dominant and submissive alike. It can be a exciting and peaceful all at the same time. Getting this D/s upward growth is the key towards great relationship satisfaction, but seeing the limit ideal of obedience is only going curtail that growth. For one is either obedient or not! There is no growth in that! But the D/s dynamics .... that's where the growth is... it is the efforts there that take you beyond where you are this moment. But, these efforts can also take you backwards... so the efforts must be effective as well!

_____________________________

Knight of Mists

An Optimal relationship is achieved when the individuals do what is best for themselves and their relationship.

(in reply to IsleofLite)

Post #: 55

RE: beyond Obedience - 2/3/2006 2:12:59 PM

caitlyn

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Obedience?

I would match my ability to get beyond it, with anyone.

(in reply to IsleofLite)

Post #: 56

RE: beyond Obedience - 2/8/2006 5:56:46 PM

Submotive

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quote:

I had a sub tell me that she felt that I wanted her to go 'beyond obedience', and I laughed and told her she was right. When she pressed me to know what that was, what was there beyond obedience, silence was my only answer, for I wanted her to go there without my definition in hand. So I ask you, Oh continuum of sensualists, what do you think is 'beyond obedience'?

beyond obedience is free will - beyond obedience is a relinquishment of anticpated results into the unknown, with no guarantees of anything except experience.

_____________________________

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If you're not living as you would like to today, when are you going to start?

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Post #: 57

RE: beyond Obedience - 2/8/2006 6:29:47 PM

ownedgirlie

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MissAli

Getting to the place where one loses ones self to the other. Suddenly you're merely a part of them, an extension. It's quite scary infact--all the better.

i didn't have a chance to read through all the posts of this thread...but what Miss Ali said sums it up for me, exactly. Beyond obedience is when the slave is consumed by her Master (or Mistress), and truly an extension. It is a level of submission so deep that words can not even describe it.

It is no longer about doing as told, or even doing as expected, or even doing what is anticipated. It is a connection of spirits. It is becoming an extension of them.

(in reply to MissAli)

Post #: 58

RE: beyond Obedience - 2/8/2006 7:44:41 PM

maybemaybenot

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quote:

ORIGINAL: IsleofLite

Arpig/RavenMuse/KnightofMist Humm, yes all well said on the subject of "obedience, within all the ranges of submission and obedience, all good comments, but I guess my original thought was is this an end, a destination? When one gets to obedience, one becomes totally obedient do they just stay there or is there still a growth in them, that sets in motion a modulation to some kind of personal submissive higher state that supercedes the obedience you now own and expect from your submissive?

So, you told your submissive, you expect something you yourself cannot define and are unsure of ?
Interesting.
Maybe I am not grasping your thoughts, maybe I am not fully understanding, but maybenot.

(in reply to IsleofLite)

Post #: 59

RE: beyond Obedience - 2/9/2006 12:01:36 AM

LthrdWolf

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'Beyond Obedience' to me is when the intuition & soul (life essence) profoundly become involved in submitting.
It Deepens the experience even more within the TPE for 'both' the one submitting & the Dominant.

LthrdWolf

< Message edited by LthrdWolf -- 2/9/2006 12:04:19 AM >

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Post #: 60

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