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RE: Yet Another Airline Fee... - 4/17/2009 5:52:47 PM

YourhandMyAss

Posts: 5516
Joined: 6/25/2006
From: Sacramento
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I am sorry but being fat and issues and complications of being fat, isn't a disability one should get help for if they did it to themselves through sheer neglect bad habbits eating to much and exercising to little, and before any one says anything, I am fat myself for that very reason and stay fat due to my past relunctance to put up or shut up so to speak, and do the work needed to loose weight.

quote:

ORIGINAL: BlackPhx

S
Irregardless, there is a law in the US. called Americans with Disabilities Act of 1990 and Title II - Public Services (and public transportation) directly impacts this. IF enough over weight persons decide to protest this action by the Airline and bring a Class Action Suit to force them to comply with Title II..airlines are not going to be happy about having to put in seats to accommodate the larger sized person. Discrimination is Discrimination whether it is denying someone housing, employment or transportation financially or by just saying no.

poenkitten who flies with Master at times and needs only one seat and whose Master spends up to 10 days a month on flights around the country.

(in reply to BlackPhx)

Post #: 41

RE: Yet Another Airline Fee... - 4/17/2009 6:03:54 PM

kazzaslave

Posts: 291
Joined: 12/12/2008
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Bravo, YhMS, well said.....

kazza

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Post #: 42

RE: Yet Another Airline Fee... - 4/17/2009 6:25:11 PM

BlackPhx

Posts: 3432
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Often it depends on the airline you fly and the type of plane. They have been using planes with smaller seats since 2003. http://www.travelskills.com/column/2003/08.08bestseats.htm. Other sites have listed measurements of some of the seats at 17 inches..and airlines are also using the minimum leg room and incline to conserve space and pack in more passengers.

poenkitten

(in reply to kazzaslave)

Post #: 43

RE: Yet Another Airline Fee... - 4/17/2009 6:28:46 PM

kazzaslave

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The last plane kazza was on there was zero leg room but it was still possible to fit in the seat reasonably comfortably. kazza suspects an upgrade in the size of passengers rather than a downgrade in the seating, obesity is out of control.

kazza

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Post #: 44

RE: Yet Another Airline Fee... - 4/17/2009 7:21:24 PM

Cagey18

Posts: 662
Joined: 9/7/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Vendaval

And they get real meals with proper cutlery, no boxed lunches with mystery meats.

You either don't fly much or you have difficulty with food identification. No US airline serves "mystery meats", even in Coach. They serve chicken, beef, pork, etc. (when you get a meal, that is...which nowadays is only on international or maybe transcontinental flights)

And First Class has the same cutlery as Coach, at least since 9/11. No metal knives, and even forks and spoons are usually plastic, to save weight.

(in reply to Vendaval)

Post #: 45

RE: Yet Another Airline Fee... - 4/17/2009 7:24:45 PM

BlackPhx

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YHMA..yes there are people who do it to themselves, who over eat, do nothing to lose weight etc. There are also those who Don't. Not everyone pigs out or is a couch potato. There are medical conditions and even medications that cause retention of water and fat.

There are also people like..oh say Hulk Hogan who has a billed weight of 275 lbs. Mass not fat..and there are conditions that cause a person to have permanently swollen legs or limbs despite having normal body mass elsewhere (it is a circulation problem)and another that causes growth mainly of the gluteus maximus. Warning very graphic image I had a friend when I was younger that suffered from this (can't remember the name of the condition) and she was NOT a big eater, exercised regularly and was painfully shy because of this Shelf that her rear formed..large enough to hold a tray. A Genetic disability, not food related yet she would have to purchase two seats under this Fee. Another friend of mine weighed in at nearly 450 lbs, was oversized at birth and ate less than 2500 calories a day on average. He avoided excess carbohyrates and sugars like most people avoid snakes. He walked constantly, climbed stairs, could bench press a great deal of weight and worked hard. We lost him after the Doctors finally diagnosed the Endocrine problem he had and he began to lose weight too fast. His heart burst as he was celebrating the weight loss with a diet coke.

There are many reasons for obesity, not all of them food or exercise related. I suspect few ticketing agents are trained to discern whether a person just over eats or has a physical problem that causes the mass and weight.

poenkitten

(in reply to YourhandMyAss)

Post #: 46

RE: Yet Another Airline Fee... - 4/17/2009 7:27:30 PM

OrionTheWolf

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So would these people be in the minority or majority of those that are obese? What percentage? Do they have documented medical papers stating such? If they have the documents, I doubt the airlines would give them a problem. Now how many would you say they have a medical condition, but do not?

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Post #: 47

RE: Yet Another Airline Fee... - 4/17/2009 7:28:10 PM

Cagey18

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Joined: 9/7/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: BlackPhx

Often it depends on the airline you fly and the type of plane. They have been using planes with smaller seats since 2003. http://www.travelskills.com/column/2003/08.08bestseats.htm. Other sites have listed measurements of some of the seats at 17 inches..and airlines are also using the minimum leg room and incline to conserve space and pack in more passengers.

poenkitten

Nope, nothing on that page about airlines going to narrower seats. As I already pointed out, seat pitch may vary, but seat width hasn't changed in many years (too expensive).

(in reply to BlackPhx)

Post #: 48

RE: Yet Another Airline Fee... - 4/17/2009 8:27:07 PM

4u2spoil

Posts: 211
Joined: 5/1/2005
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Speaking purely anecdotally, some plane seats are smaller than others. Turbo props, commuter and regional jets etc. Anytime I've been on those planes it's usually after a fairly long international flight where it really feels like there's a difference in the amount of space (width wise) that's given.

That said, someone spilling over into the seat next to you may be both by choice and by nature. I'm 6'1" and 200lbs on me (even though I tend to carry weight in my hips, thighs) wouldn't be the same as it would on someone who's 5'1". So no one can arbitrarily put a number on what a "comfortable" flying weight would be, and inspecting someone's body type before they get on a plane would be ridiculous.

I'm a little in favor of the overspillers because I have a problem with legroom. Now granted, a good portion of people over a certain size can control their body through diet and exercise, and height is something you can't change. But the lack of consideration in general for different body types doesn't give me a favorable view of the airlines. I fly Continental now, but I'll never forget a 9-hour United flight where I had to beg 3 flight attendants for an empty exit row seat. As usual, the guy in front of me was reclined into my lap and didn't take my kicking his seat as a hint, my feet kept getting runover by people moving in the aisles and my legs started to cramp. I finally got one who didn't give me the flip "you should've paid for the extra legroom" (no one told me it was an option).

Fortunately I have enough miles now to get affordable or free upgrades on most flights, but I don't think the "your body type is subject to penalties" approach is right. Who knows, maybe they'll shift seats back an extra inch and decide to charge tall people more for spilling over into the back of someone's seat.

Edited to add: Fast reply. This wasn't specifically in reply to cagey18

< Message edited by 4u2spoil -- 4/17/2009 8:28:50 PM >

(in reply to Cagey18)

Post #: 49

RE: Yet Another Airline Fee... - 4/17/2009 8:47:33 PM

Cagey18

Posts: 662
Joined: 9/7/2008
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You are absolutely correct. Commuter jets and the like often have narrower seats (and less padding

) than "real" jets. But as with the big jets, this width (or lack thereof) has been the same for years.

Since you're so tall, check out www.seatguru.com before you reserve your next flight and compare the aircraft relative to your airline's schedules. Oftentimes you can take a flight an hour earlier or later, and you get a different aircraft with more seat pitch (or get a widebody jet instead of a regional jet).

ps Your profile needs more pictures to ascertain your height

(in reply to 4u2spoil)

Post #: 50

RE: Yet Another Airline Fee... - 4/18/2009 7:15:48 AM

4u2spoil

Posts: 211
Joined: 5/1/2005
Status: offline

Cagey, my patented tall travel tips (TM) have usually worked out for me when I can't reserve a seat with legroom in advance*

1. Show up in advance. Way in advance. For an international flight, I try to be at check in 3 hours in advance, 2.5 hours for domestic. I'm usually the first or one of the first to check in and have a lot of seats to choose from (bulkhead, exit row, etc)

2. Fly early or really late. No one wants these flights, which means they're among the few that usually still have empty seats. All of my afternoon flights have been full capacity. On some red eyes and late night flights (though not the very last one) I've had an entire row to myself. I don't imagine there are many overspillers who would go past two seats, so this works for those who need the width as well.

3. Be the last to board. This doesn't work as well as it used to, but for airlines that charge for bulkheads and exit rows, if there's an open seat you can grab it without much question. People usually wait until everyone's on board to shift seats. The reason I say it doesn't work as well as it used to is that the friend who gave me this one would actually use it to grab any available business or first class seat. That was pre 9/11 though, so I'm pretty sure you'd get a hard bounce to your original seat if attempted for anything besides an exit or bulkhead.

* On a lot of airlines the exit rows aren't confirmed until you actually check in (so they can look at age, physical ability to assist the crew in the event...).

Those regional jets really are cramped (not that I don't understand why), but for short flights and some less frequented places that's all they have available. On those, the exit rows don't even make a difference.

I'll get a picture of my knees sticking out of a plane aisle seat for you

If I can get restraints past security, I might even be able to get one of the person in front of me tied up so they can't push the recline button.

(in reply to Cagey18)

Post #: 51

RE: Yet Another Airline Fee... - 4/18/2009 8:02:22 AM

aravain

Posts: 1211
Joined: 8/26/2008
Status: offline

Oh, I love the recliners. Usually (by usually I mean on every flight except for my transatlantics) my legs are against the back to the seat with the person's chair up all the way if I can't get exit row... to the point that they literally *can't* recline their seats (not that it's that wonderful for me, my feet can't reach the floor because I need to pitch my knees up to fit, which causes cramping among other things). One conversation went something like this:

"Excuse me, sir, can you move so that I can lay my seat back?"

*blink* "What?"

"I want to lay back."

"Look, bud, the only way you'll be able to lay back with my height is if I stood the entire flight."

"Could you? That would be very helpful."

I'm sure that he thought I was completely unreasonable in my refusal... except, you know, we weren't *allowed* to stand unless going to the rest room, not that I would have if we could anyways. Maybe I would have... if he would have paid me for my seat (at twice the rate that it cost me :P)

(in reply to 4u2spoil)

Post #: 52

RE: Yet Another Airline Fee... - 4/18/2009 8:03:03 AM

BlackPhx

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Joined: 11/8/2006
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Orion I know I don't have papers for all my medical conditions, though I have the meds. At 190 Lbs I am what my doctors consider obese, but not by airline standards and frankly if I were a man..probably not medically, then. Yet I have several ailments that limit my ability to lose weight despite major efforts to do so. But, why should I HAVE to prove a medical condition to a clerk at an airline counter? They are not a doctor, not a part of the medical establishment and frankly it is a violation of my medical privacy to do so. Someone who is over 6 foot doesn't have to prove it is genetic or medical (acromegaly is medical) why should someone who is obese. Especially since obese is relative to height. The person who is 6'5 and 250Lbs is not obese yet the person who is 5'6 and 210 is. The person who is 4'10 is obese at 150 lb. What if it is muscle mass and not fat? Same weight, but different packaging so to speak.

Shall we all have to stand on a scale like our luggage and under a ruler for them to decide who pays for an extra seat or wait for them to decide you must be this weight to fly and extra over that weight is so much more dollar wise? After all some carriers are charging now for your first piece of luggage that has to be stowed and any luggage over 50 lbs is another $25 each. They don't give you back money if all you have is a carry on. and they don't put extra fuel in the plane for the over weight luggage, though they charge for it..and they don't make the pilots ( some of whom are not the svelte models you expect) buy an extra seat in the cockpit to accomodate them either.

Canada struck down the airlines attempts to charge for an extra seat for the obese... hate to see they are more rights oriented than they are when it comes to this.

poenkitten

< Message edited by BlackPhx -- 4/18/2009 8:04:24 AM >

(in reply to OrionTheWolf)

Post #: 53

RE: Yet Another Airline Fee... - 4/18/2009 8:54:45 AM

kazzaslave

Posts: 291
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kazza understands that there are people who cannot help being overweight, and that there are medical conditions which cause people to be overweight. BUT you will never convince her that the vast majority of people who are obese aren't that way because of their diet. Look around you, the portions served in restaurants are huge, the consumption of an unhealthy diet is rampant and obesity is at epidemic levels.

You also cannot convince her that the airlines have put in smaller seats in an attempt to cash in on requiring people who are obese to purchase two seats, it just doesn't make sense at a time when fewer people are flying because of the economy.

kazza

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All kazza's postings are approved by Master Malkinius

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Member of MoGa's In Crowd

Honorary member of the Fabulous Michigan Clique

(in reply to BlackPhx)

Post #: 54

RE: Yet Another Airline Fee... - 4/18/2009 9:19:45 AM

BlackPhx

Posts: 3432
Joined: 11/8/2006
Status: offline

Actually on the regional flights they are using planes with smaller seats. But don't believe me about the seat sizes.. http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/17724654/ "These days, the standard width of most economy or coach seats is just a smidge over 17 inches — about as wide as your computer keyboard. So don’t be surprised if, no matter what your size, you feel squeezed in on your next flight."

As well Kazza I did not say that the majority of those who are considered obese did not eat their way into that condition. I did say however that there are also medical and genetic reasons for it that can't be helped and it is possible it is covered under the Disabilities act if someone wants to fight that battle. Also they are on checking the individual airlines sights not excluding pregnant women from that so if a woman is carrying twins she is buying an extra seat to fly.

poenkitten

(in reply to kazzaslave)

Post #: 55

RE: Yet Another Airline Fee... - 4/18/2009 10:10:46 AM

sblady

Posts: 433
Joined: 9/28/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: BlackPhx

Orion I know I don't have papers for all my medical conditions, though I have the meds. At 190 Lbs I am what my doctors consider obese, but not by airline standards and frankly if I were a man..probably not medically, then. Yet I have several ailments that limit my ability to lose weight despite major efforts to do so. But, why should I HAVE to prove a medical condition to a clerk at an airline counter? They are not a doctor, not a part of the medical establishment and frankly it is a violation of my medical privacy to do so. Someone who is over 6 foot doesn't have to prove it is genetic or medical (acromegaly is medical) why should someone who is obese. Especially since obese is relative to height. The person who is 6'5 and 250Lbs is not obese yet the person who is 5'6 and 210 is. The person who is 4'10 is obese at 150 lb. What if it is muscle mass and not fat? Same weight, but different packaging so to speak.

Shall we all have to stand on a scale like our luggage and under a ruler for them to decide who pays for an extra seat or wait for them to decide you must be this weight to fly and extra over that weight is so much more dollar wise? After all some carriers are charging now for your first piece of luggage that has to be stowed and any luggage over 50 lbs is another $25 each. They don't give you back money if all you have is a carry on. and they don't put extra fuel in the plane for the over weight luggage, though they charge for it..and they don't make the pilots ( some of whom are not the svelte models you expect) buy an extra seat in the cockpit to accomodate them either.

Canada struck down the airlines attempts to charge for an extra seat for the obese... hate to see they are more rights oriented than they are when it comes to this.

poenkitten

Poenkitten, I think I love you~blush.

What a nice way to keep things in perspective. Now, I'm going to finish my bon bons, answer a few e-mails and go work out hoping I'm not yet at a two-seater. *disclaimer I'm not poking fun at those with physical or other issues who are required to purchase two seats, especially as I'm not a small lady either.

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(in reply to BlackPhx)

Post #: 56

RE: Yet Another Airline Fee... - 4/18/2009 10:15:07 AM

camille65

Posts: 5746
Joined: 7/11/2007
From: Austin Texas
Status: offline

IMO if you cannot fit into one seat, then you have to purchase two seats. The laws of physics.. you can only squish so much matter into a limited space.

I do not think it should be done by weight but by actual size. If a giant muscle bound person cannot fit into one seat, then they need to buy two.

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Post #: 57

RE: Yet Another Airline Fee... - 4/18/2009 10:15:56 AM

Vendaval

Posts: 10297
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I think all the added on fees are a not so sneaky way of charging us double while pretending to slash fare prices.

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Post #: 58

RE: Yet Another Airline Fee... - 4/18/2009 10:29:33 AM

ThatDaveGuy69

Posts: 978
Joined: 6/22/2007
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OMG!
She just said "irregardless". That's a 5-yard penalty and loss of down!
Once again folks: "irregardless" is NOT a word.
You can say "irregarding" or "regardless" if you are trying to say "without regard for".

Sheesh...

But anyway...

I really don't think the ADA should apply to ppl who are just plain overweight. Also, Southwest has been charging overweight passengers for 2 seats for years. But I think you actually GET 2 seats on SWA. Seams only fair (fare) :D

quote:

ORIGINAL: BlackPhx

Somehow Cagey I think I would believe a persons experience over the claims of the airline. If they paid for an extra seat on a flight, then not only should they get that extra seat (in the same row next to each other) but not get bumped to a later flight if one isn't available. Bump them to first class if you have to at the Proper price. If First class is 400$ and 2 coach seats are 600$, then they get First Class at $400. Otherwise, Don't sell what you don't have.

Irregardless, there is a law in the US. called Americans with Disabilities Act of 1990 and Title II - Public Services (and public transportation) directly impacts this. IF enough over weight persons decide to protest this action by the Airline and bring a Class Action Suit to force them to comply with Title II..airlines are not going to be happy about having to put in seats to accommodate the larger sized person. Discrimination is Discrimination whether it is denying someone housing, employment or transportation financially or by just saying no.

poenkitten who flies with Master at times and needs only one seat and whose Master spends up to 10 days a month on flights around the country.

_____________________________

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Post #: 59

RE: Yet Another Airline Fee... - 4/18/2009 10:48:36 AM

4u2spoil

Posts: 211
Joined: 5/1/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: aravain

"Excuse me, sir, can you move so that I can lay my seat back?"

*blink* "What?"

"I want to lay back."

"Look, bud, the only way you'll be able to lay back with my height is if I stood the entire flight."

"Could you? That would be very helpful."

Sometimes you have to take advantage of the intimidation that comes with a little extra size. One of my family members is 6'6" (and still doesn't get a lot of exit row love) and his favorite line about the recliners is "they push, and I push back."

I usually start the flight by asking the person in front of me not to recline. If they don't, I can sometimes stretch my legs out so that my feet go all the way under their seat. If they try to recline anyway, I grab my travel blanket, pad my knees and make sure their trip is as uncomfortable as mine.

(in reply to aravain)

Post #: 60

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