RE: Politics Mixed With Religion

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slvemike4u -> RE: Politics Mixed With Religion (4/18/2009 10:40:04 AM)
sanity,that is a leap not even you can make....who said anything about silencing anybody. all any church would need do to keep their status is restrict their preaching to temporal matters... But than again this whole thing comes down to a talking point for you doesn't it...just another chance to bitch and moan...because your guy lost....buck up sanity...years and years ahead of you.If you don't pace yourself you will not make it

DomKen -> RE: Politics Mixed With Religion (4/18/2009 3:28:01 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Sanity Are pictures proof enough for you? http://www.hawaiiforobama.org/gallery/unity-rally.html Or do you require more direct evidence than that. quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen Trinity endorsed a political candidate? Must have happened last night. IOW Sanity you are implying something untrue. I require evidence that the minister at Trinity endorsed any candidate from the pulpit. Since I know it didn't happen I'll await your continued prevarications.

DomKen -> RE: Politics Mixed With Religion (4/18/2009 3:30:35 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Christinestill quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen quote: ORIGINAL: Christinestill i'm not familiar with religions that have political affiliations. i'm also not sure with what is wrong with it? OP, you have a political opinion obviously, what's wrong with a religion having an opinion? What's wrong is a tax exempt organization, supposed to be entirely devoted to charitable activities, spending any time or money endorsing politicians. If you want to have a church that endorses political candidates then obey the tax laws for groups that do that. IOW stay out of politics or pay taxes. ok i wasn't aware of that but it makes sense. still, i'm sure all religions have a political opinion from catholics to jews to whatever. it's just human nature...guess if they want to keep their tax status they need to keep their mouths shut. easier said than done, but i'm just a person, not a big, bad religion. [;)] Note that the discussion, at least the part being conducted by people grounded in reality, isn't about silencing religious people but simply requiring all charities that receive tax exempt status to stay out of political endorsement.

TheHeretic -> RE: Politics Mixed With Religion (4/18/2009 3:40:14 PM)
Mike, I think you are thinking that churches somehow get some special classification all by themselves. They don't. They are in the same category with all sorts of non-profit groups that get involved with politics and policy on a regular basis. Should an animal rights organization lose their status for pushing local gov't officials to adopt spay/neuter laws? Should we prohibit politicians from speaking at the opening of a new domestic violence shelter? How many organizations lead marches, Mike? Are you advocating for Iraq Veterans Against the War to be paying taxes on what they raise? How about gun control groups? Aren't they political? Or do you just see an opportunity to swing at the social conservatives without a thought to what else might get whacked?

TheHeretic -> RE: Politics Mixed With Religion (4/18/2009 4:09:16 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen Note that the discussion, at least the part being conducted by people grounded in reality, isn't about silencing religious people but simply requiring all charities that receive tax exempt status to stay out of political endorsement. Giving official endorsements is the Bozo no-no, Ken. Given the number of bozos in the pulpits, are we surprised to hear of it happening? I think churches, especially the non-denominational evangelicals that have done very well over the last 25ish years, are pretty cocky and dumb when it comes to this. Let the investigations roll for a few examples to remind the others, but no witch hunts please. That gets counterproductive very quickly.

slvemike4u -> RE: Politics Mixed With Religion (4/19/2009 2:56:47 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: TheHeretic Mike, I think you are thinking that churches somehow get some special classification all by themselves. They don't. They are in the same category with all sorts of non-profit groups that get involved with politics and policy on a regular basis. Should an animal rights organization lose their status for pushing local gov't officials to adopt spay/neuter laws? Should we prohibit politicians from speaking at the opening of a new domestic violence shelter? How many organizations lead marches, Mike? Are you advocating for Iraq Veterans Against the War to be paying taxes on what they raise? How about gun control groups? Aren't they political? Or do you just see an opportunity to swing at the social conservatives without a thought to what else might get whacked? Religious organizations and Charities are two different things Rich,I'm not confused about that....but it seems one of us is confused about something.At 6 a.am.just coming in from last night I'm not prepared to make the call on which one of us is screwy....see you tomorrow.

Sanity -> RE: Politics Mixed With Religion (4/19/2009 6:34:43 AM)
Say I provide video of Wright or his successor endorsing Obama or bashing Republicans... you'll just keep moving the goalposts, won't you. Besides, after word got out of the kinds of things that they preach at Trinity, the press has been locked out of the sermons, making it impossible for anyone to establish what is currently being said from the pulpit, as you demand. Bet you knew that already. But your dubious evasion methods here do raise another interesting issue - how would your IRS officers monitor religious speech. Would we have black booted government thugs at every church bake sale or bible study, monitoring what is said under your plan? quote: I require evidence that the minister at Trinity endorsed any candidate from the pulpit. Since I know it didn't happen I'll await your continued prevarications.

DomKen -> RE: Politics Mixed With Religion (4/19/2009 6:46:59 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Sanity Say I provide video of Wright or his successor endorsing Obama or bashing Republicans... you'll just keep moving the goalposts, won't you. Besides, after word got out of the kinds of things that they preach at Trinity, the press has been locked out of the sermons, making it impossible for anyone to establish what is currently being said from the pulpit, as you demand. Bet you knew that already. But your dubious evasion methods here do raise another interesting issue - how would your IRS officers monitor religious speech. Would we have black booted government thugs at every church bake sale or bible study, monitoring what is said under your plan? quote: I require evidence that the minister at Trinity endorsed any candidate from the pulpit. Since I know it didn't happen I'll await your continued prevarications. So you don't have proof that Trinity officially endorsed a candidate. BTW it's not my plan. It is the US plan since Eisenhower got it made into law in the 1950's.

Sanity -> RE: Politics Mixed With Religion (4/19/2009 6:53:08 AM)
I'm not going to play your little game. Move the goalposts, go hunt, move the goalposts, go hunt. That don't fly, ken - go play your games with somebody else. And if you believe Obama's former pastor or reverend or whatever he calls himself hasn't talked politics from the pulpit you obviously haven't heard of youtube. quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen So you don't have proof that Trinity officially endorsed a candidate. BTW it's not my plan. It is the US plan since Eisenhower got it made into law in the 1950's.

MissJanice2 -> RE: Politics Mixed With Religion (4/19/2009 6:58:36 AM)
I would not go that far and say churches should lose their tax exempt status; however, I am a big advocate of no politics in church. As soon as I can get that across to my pastor, I will go back. haha. We know it won't happen. I will stay at home. *Sad isn't it?* *Who cares?* MJ

TheHeretic -> RE: Politics Mixed With Religion (4/19/2009 7:11:10 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: slvemike4u At 6 a.am.just coming in from last night I'm not prepared to make the call on which one of us is screwy....see you tomorrow. Your Google, should you choose to accept it, is 501(3)(c). As I've already explained, I'm all in favor of cracking down on those who abuse/ignore the rules.

Sanity -> RE: Politics Mixed With Religion (4/19/2009 7:28:39 AM)
That's just the thing... it's a game of unequal enforcement to some, certain ones squinting at splinters who have posts in their own eyes. This is about the party in charge, Democrats, using the power of the IRS as a means to silence some of their political opponents. Imagine the screams of racism and fascism and so on if a Republican administration began kicking the doors in at some of these Liberal charities or church groups. quote: ORIGINAL: TheHeretic Your Google, should you choose to accept it, is 501(3)(c). As I've already explained, I'm all in favor of cracking down on those who abuse/ignore the rules.

Owner59 -> RE: Politics Mixed With Religion (4/19/2009 7:28:57 AM)
I`m ok with any church(any faith or sect)lib or con losing TES if they break the rules. I`m ok with any church(any faith or sect)lib or con being involved in politics,but without TES. I`m ok with advocacy groups having TES as long as they follow the rules they are formed under.Break them and loose TES. No one`s freedom of speech or religion is being affected or infringed, as the whine-makers claim. No one has said one must or must not do this or that or the other thing.You just can`t do it tax free. Freedom isn`t free. added: Folks,notice how Sanity automatically perceives this as an attack conservatives.Very telling. Why would he jump to that conclussion......? <thinks Freudian>

Sanity -> RE: Politics Mixed With Religion (4/19/2009 7:33:23 AM)
If there were equal enforcement, I think I could go along with some of it but still, I am hesitant to condone the muzzling of anyone because of tax issues. The people should be free to speak - from the pulpit, or wherever they happen to be standing. Wright, Jackson, anyone - whether I agree with them or no. To me, this is perhaps one more reason to move to more of a flat tax system. quote: ORIGINAL: Owner59 I`m ok with any church(any faith or sect)lib or con losing TES if they break the rules. I`m ok with any church(any faith or sect)lib or con being involved in politics,but without TES. I`m ok with advocacy groups having TES as long as they follow the rules they are formed under.Break them and loose TES. No one`s freedom speech or religion is being affect as the whine-makers claim. No one has said one must or must not do this or that or the other thing.You just can`t do it tax free.

TheHeretic -> RE: Politics Mixed With Religion (4/19/2009 10:37:41 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: TheHeretic 501(3)(c). Whoops. My bad. Make that 501(c)(3). (posted before coffee)

thornhappy -> RE: Politics Mixed With Religion (4/19/2009 11:40:49 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: here2serve24 We give POS organizations like ACORN MILLIONS of dollars a year and they are radical left. Churches being exempt from taxes? That just totally pisses liberals off....fuck those liberal pusses. Ah well, no profile. It's pussies, dear. Be so kind as to spell the epithets properly.

thornhappy -> RE: Politics Mixed With Religion (4/19/2009 11:48:13 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Sanity Besides, after word got out of the kinds of things that they preach at Trinity, the press has been locked out of the sermons, making it impossible for anyone to establish what is currently being said from the pulpit, as you demand. That church has podcasts and video clips from the services.

Sanity -> RE: Politics Mixed With Religion (4/19/2009 11:55:48 AM)
Puss, pusses. Pussy, pussies. It's all good and perfectly correct. quote: ORIGINAL: thornhappy quote: ORIGINAL: here2serve24 We give POS organizations like ACORN MILLIONS of dollars a year and they are radical left. Churches being exempt from taxes? That just totally pisses liberals off....fuck those liberal pusses. Ah well, no profile. It's pussies, dear. Be so kind as to spell the epithets properly.

Sanity -> RE: Politics Mixed With Religion (4/19/2009 11:56:54 AM)
Try and post some of them. quote: ORIGINAL: thornhappy quote: ORIGINAL: Sanity Besides, after word got out of the kinds of things that they preach at Trinity, the press has been locked out of the sermons, making it impossible for anyone to establish what is currently being said from the pulpit, as you demand. That church has podcasts and video clips from the services.

DomKen -> RE: Politics Mixed With Religion (4/19/2009 1:57:29 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Sanity I'm not going to play your little game. Move the goalposts, go hunt, move the goalposts, go hunt. That don't fly, ken - go play your games with somebody else. And if you believe Obama's former pastor or reverend or whatever he calls himself hasn't talked politics from the pulpit you obviously haven't heard of youtube. quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen So you don't have proof that Trinity officially endorsed a candidate. BTW it's not my plan. It is the US plan since Eisenhower got it made into law in the 1950's. Whine about shifting goal posts and then do so yourself? Now that's a classic. Any church can have sermons on issues, as I'm sure Trinity has had, but no 501(c)(3) organization, which includes virtually all churches, can endorse or campaign for candidates. So you tried to move the goal posts and tried to misdirect by claiming I had. You are far too ham handed to play that subtle game. Best stick to telling outright lies and ignoring posts proving that you did.

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