RE: Why the GOP is unraveling.

RE: Why the GOP is unraveling. (Full Version)

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samboct -> RE: Why the GOP is unraveling. (4/21/2009 6:29:39 PM)
Stranger Than "The GOP unraveled for one reason. They followed and defended every lie Bush told. It's that simple. If the rank and file had stood up to him and said no, they wouldn't be in the position they are now. It's kind of like the quote "it's the economy, stupid." In this case, it's about Bush." Nope- Bush wasn't/isn't that smart. He certainly couldn't come up with the stuff he did on his own. Instead, he's the logical successor to Ronnie the Rayguns who built an ideological house of cards which was based on effectively bankrupting government by driving deficits into the red. You may recall that Ronnie's platform was that government was always the problem- (except for defense). Bush's idealology is quite similar. Ronnie used the cold war to drive up deficit spending to an unprecedented level. Rayguns started with a deficit of $70B or so and bellyached about that before he was elected. He ran it to over a trillion- pretty impressive. Bush basically followed Ronnie's lead and came up with an expensive war in Iraq coupled with a tax cut on the wealthy. Not surprisingly things have come crashing down. But the trajectory was established nearly 30 years ago. Rayguns "tax cuts" were really nothing of the sort- it was a redistribution of taxes onto the poor and middle class. He cut the income taxes- but dramatically raised the self employment tax- which is capped at $102,000, making it rather regressive. Overall, the tax rate has been relatively flat over the years- probably somewhere between 33-40% for everybody. None of this is an anathema to the "rank and file" Republicans who never met a tax cut they didn't like. Bush just didn't have Rayguns personal flair with the media, who seemed to be on LSD when watching him. I still remember watching the Rayguns/Carter debate where Carter would come out with a bunch of facts and statistics and all Rayguns could do was say "There you go, Jimmy." According to nearly all the pundits, Rayguns handily won that debate. There was one guy (who I don't recall anymore) who said- Were we watching the same debate? Carter creamed Rayguns- he had a grasp of the issues, which clearly evaded the Rayguns. That's when I decided I was badly out of step with the country. With Obama getting elected, it seems like I may not be such an outlier any more. If the GOP wants to become relevant- they have to return to their roots of real conservatism. It's not unreasonable to ask how to pay for programs- it generally helps to get better bang/buck. But they also need to return to their core values of individual rights and ditch the bigots and religious whackos. The GOP was the party of Lincoln- but he'd be a democrat today. Sam

slvemike4u -> RE: Why the GOP is unraveling. (4/21/2009 6:37:10 PM)
[sm=applause.gif][sm=applause.gif][sm=applause.gif][sm=applause.gif]

StrangerThan -> RE: Why the GOP is unraveling. (4/22/2009 4:38:12 AM)
We'll have to agree to disagree then sam. Bush, Cheney and Fritz used a lot of strong arm tactics with Congressional Republicans to the point that those three essentially made the decisions for Congress in many cases. They had the same situation Obama has now, where both have control of two branches of government and they used it to their fullest. Republicans for the most part lost all respect for toeing the line those three set. I watched it happen in NC with Elizabeth Dole. All the Ronnie Raygun talk is debateable I guess. Only you'll have to debate it with someone else. I really don't care. Where Republicans lost is with Bush, not by him being there, but by them following along and defending him. That goes from stem cell research to torture to spying on American citizens to invading Iraq to detentions without counsel or trial. Not once did Republicans stand up and say no, these things are wrong. They spent the bulk of their time doing exactly what the bama freaks will do the next four years, that being defending every action the man makes whether it's good or bad. The only bright spot in that type of equation is that freaks on the right and freaks on the left aren't the people who actually elect presidents. They essentially cancel each other out. It's us in the middle who sway back and forth that create the votes to push one above the other. It's why I roll my eyes every time I see the word "mandate" come out of an election or a politician's mouth when winning percentages are usually a tiny fraction of the entire electorate. There's no mandate. It's more of a, you've got the job now. Don't totally fuck it up.

DarkSteven -> RE: Why the GOP is unraveling. (4/22/2009 6:08:12 AM)
Sam, we're going to disagree. I don't think that "Bush" was any dumber than "Reagan", unless by their names you mean their entire administrations. (I will now refer to the Administrations by the Pres' name.) Reagan worked to get his agenda through, reaching out. Bush hammered it home, bypassing others (the wiretapping mess was a good example, when he ignored relatively flimsy requirements because he didn't feel like following them). Reagan took into account the world around him. Bush didn't, pushing tax cuts and overseas adventures. He ignored the Mideast until he wanted a crowning achievement at the end of his term. Their philosophies were similar, but Reagan was far more capable than Bush.

samboct -> RE: Why the GOP is unraveling. (4/22/2009 6:31:28 AM)
Oh please- both DS and ST- you're wearing rose colored glasses when it comes to the Rayguns administration. What has GWB the younger done that Ronnie wouldn't approve of? Lying? Remember the Iran-Contra affair? Doing an end run around Congress- again see Iran-Contra as a pointed example. Obscene deficit spending? Pandering to the religious right? Look at his Supreme Court Appointments-along with some of his "accomplishments" listed here- http://www.cnn.com/2004/LAW/06/09/dorf.reagan.courts/index.html Sandra Day O'Oconnor, Rehnquest, Scalia, and Kennedy- Thomas was courtesy of Bush the elder. Look at Bush the younger's appointments- Roberts and Alito. These are the creeps that basically put Bush the younger in office (overruling the Florida Supreme Court-and said not to use the decision as precedence) and have stayed remarkably mute on the torture conducted under this administration. Nor was Ronnie's administration no stranger to torture. I'll also point out that creeps like OBL were funded under Ronnie. Show me the Republicans that stood up to the Rayguns- I suspect its a very short list. As noted above, the MSM gave Ronnie a free ride- and they did the same for a long time for Bush the younger. Or did everybody forget that even the NY Times-that bastard child of liberalism, also went along with Bush the youngers claim of WMD in Iraq? Somehow it doesn't seem to be very different than accepting the nonsense that Rayguns "won" the cold war. (He did nothing of the kind- feel free to read Postwar by Tony Judt which lays out the history well.) In terms of mandate- Obama's got one- but neither Reagan in his first term had one (electoral victory, but not a big popular vote) nor did Bush the younger. Turns out Lincoln and Truman didn't have mandates either. However, one thing that bugs me is lumping Obama against the Republican neo con idealogues and saying that things will be more of the same. To date, his track record is pretty good. Yes, he's making mistakes (see the bank crisis) but he's not locked into a particular course of action. This is an enormous difference from the neo-cons. The people I've heard say things will be more of the same are the folks that voted for Reagan and Bushes and have now come to regret the decision for voting for Bush the younger. It's just an excuse for people not wanting to take responsibility for their actions. Sam

DarkSteven -> RE: Why the GOP is unraveling. (4/22/2009 6:41:07 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: samboct To date, his track record is pretty good. Yes, he's making mistakes (see the bank crisis) but he's not locked into a particular course of action. This is an enormous difference from the neo-cons. The people I've heard say things will be more of the same are the folks that voted for Reagan and Bushes and have now come to regret the decision for voting for Bush the younger. It's just an excuse for people not wanting to take responsibility for their actions. Sam We agree on that. Bush had a habit of ignoring advice and proceeding impetuously with little regard for consequences. Obama so far has brought in people who know their stuff and listened to them His handling of the pirate situation was beautiful - he got the people who know what to do what they needed, kept himself on top of it, and kept his mouth shut. After everything was resolved, he issued a couple of brief statement, and didn't thump his chest. Class, and not trying to impress anyone.

samboct -> RE: Why the GOP is unraveling. (4/22/2009 7:45:20 AM)
Hi Stephen I think we agree on your point that Bush didn't listen to folks and Obama does. There's a very dramatic shift going on in science and energy policy. Obama's rhetoric is being backed up with $$$- often the best way to tell if somebody is serious. Sam

Owner59 -> RE: Why the GOP is unraveling. (4/22/2009 8:19:18 AM)
Personally I`m amazed that so many slave themselves to defending bush.Like it was an obligation. But Benedict Arnold also had his defenders.....

Cagey18 -> RE: Why the GOP is unraveling. (4/22/2009 9:10:41 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Owner59 Personally I`m amazed that so many slave themselves to defending bush.Like it was an obligation. 1. FoxNews/Rush/Hannity told them to. 2. Can't admit they fucked up and voted for a fuck-up. 3. Otherwise they'd be agreeing with the fag-lovin' pot-smokin' liberals 4. All of the above

Owner59 -> RE: Why the GOP is unraveling. (4/22/2009 9:15:49 AM)
Now I gotta clean tea off my screen...tanx![:D]

ienigma777 -> RE: Why the GOP is unraveling. (4/22/2009 10:02:41 AM)
Hello; Pardon me for butting in here, in this really good discussion; but I have to say....I don't believe the republicans regret anything they've done; they're just pissed that they couldn't keep the power base, and further, that a black man is now president. A black man who has inherited all the woes of the Bush/Cheney years and their ruination of the economy of the US. Reagan, I believe was run by Bush the Greater, for the most part; Reagan being afficted with his progessing Alizheimers. Then again, even without the affictition, Reagan was no brainiac. Getting back to regrets.....McCain chose the Alaskan Bimbo...what was that? A beautiful woman, who is basically dumber than a post, not the best parent role model with her daughter drunk and two pregnancies out of wedlock.....not even a decent model for the Donna Reed American Idol. From what I've read in these forums, how the Bush/Cheney et al is defended, even admired.....is simply incomprehensible. An excellent example is the release of the Bush/CIA torture docs......the CIA is not ashamed nor outraged as to the actions of some of their agents....but are outraged that the docs were found out and released for public scurinty....however, they did manage to supress other documention of tortures. These republicans defend Bush/Cheney, and totally ignore the ruinination of the US economy,ignore all that happened during Bush...and proceed to undermine the sitting president....who has inherited the Bush debalcle, and has yet to serve one year as president. Now, that's what I call...Helping America. The Bush supporters on these forums are rudely vocal and search out anything no matter how insignificant to slam Mr. Obama...as if, he was at fault for all of this country's woes. Incredible,the mind of a GOP. Now, looking ahead; after they change the consitution where a forigen born can be president (that debate will be a show all to itself).....and Arnold comes to meet his destiny......that will be a show. Imagine the debates on this forum. Oh, the humanity. One thing for sure...what Bush has done to this country and the world will impact for another 75 years or longer. There ain't NO QUICK FIX. One thing more....these republicans are pissed at Mr. Obama being President.....The GOPS don't even realize that it was Bush who got a Democrat in as President. So if they want to slam someone, Bush would be the Slamee.

StrangerThan -> RE: Why the GOP is unraveling. (4/22/2009 4:11:03 PM)
Again Sam, not going to debate reagan with you. I barely remember the man honestly. I will make one note though. Republicans came to power in his wake. They fell from power in Bush's wake. I'm not one to go research all the crap to support or defend anyone in politics. Pretty much my stance is, if you want to know what bullshit is, it's when a politician has his mouth open. And that public servant nonsense is always eye roll material. They serve no one except themselves. When the biggest fear a politician has is that he might lose his or her job, he or she isn't doing the job they were elected to do - which is govern, make choices for the good of the people, defend the Constitution, and be a good sheppard of taxpayer money. There aren't many who meet that 3 tiered litmus test, democrat or republican. I despise both honestly.

painpup -> RE: Why the GOP is unraveling. (4/22/2009 4:18:27 PM)
a Quote politics nowadays is like professional wrestling everybody hates everybody until there off camera [jessie ventura former govener of Min which means there's only one party nowadays the real power is above all of them unseen Master's of said puppet's and WE The People are endanger of lossing it all to Them

kittinSol -> RE: Why the GOP is unraveling. (4/22/2009 4:25:45 PM)
I hope that there will be a chasm within the GOP and that they drop the loony extreme right-wing of their party (aka. Palin & Co.). I support an alternative to the Democratic party: a democracy requires it. In its current state, the GOP cannot provide that balance. We are already seeing the embryonic form of that chasm. I hope it comes to fruition and that the GOP becomes a force of balance and moderation.

Cagey18 -> RE: Why the GOP is unraveling. (4/22/2009 4:34:09 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kittinSol I hope that there will be a chasm within the GOP and that they drop the loony extreme right-wing of their party (aka. Palin & Co.). I support an alternative to the Democratic party: a democracy requires it. In its current state, the GOP cannot provide that balance. We are already seeing the embryonic form of that chasm. I hope it comes to fruition and that the GOP becomes a force of balance and moderation. Problem is, the extreme right-wing of the party is what's represented in Congress right now (the moderate Republicans were mostly defeated by Democrats). So if there's a split, most voting Republicans will support the extreme wing, and the remaining voting bloc won't have much power at all, being the smallest faction. That would ensure Democratic control of Congress for years to come. (hey, they did it for 40 years compared to the GOP's 12, so not exactly unlikely)

kittinSol -> RE: Why the GOP is unraveling. (4/22/2009 4:36:13 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Cagey18 That would ensure Democratic control of Congress for years to come. (hey, they did it for 40 years compared to the GOP's 12, so not exactly unlikely) With the catastrophic scenario you describe, not a bad alternative to my lalaland fantasy :-) .

Lordandmaster -> RE: Why the GOP is unraveling. (4/22/2009 5:01:32 PM)
You might want to review your history. Single parties have dominated American politics for decades at a time. How many Democratic presidents were there between 1897 and 1932? One--Woodrow Wilson. How many Republican presidents were there between 1933 and 1968? One--Dwight D. Eisenhower. How many Democratic presidents were there between 1969 and 2008? Two--Jimmy Carter and Bill Clinton. quote: ORIGINAL: Marc2b Anybody who believes that we are entering into a permanent era of Democratic led peace and harmony is a fool. They are just as much a fool as those who thought the election of Ronald Regan was the onset of a Republican led era of peace and harmony.

Marc2b -> RE: Why the GOP is unraveling. (4/22/2009 5:35:48 PM)
quote: You might want to review your history. Single parties have dominated American politics for decades at a time. How many Democratic presidents were there between 1897 and 1932? One--Woodrow Wilson. How many Republican presidents were there between 1933 and 1968? One--Dwight D. Eisenhower. How many Democratic presidents were there between 1969 and 2008? Two--Jimmy Carter and Bill Clinton. You are accusing me of my own argument. That is exactly my point. One party wields power for a while and then loses it. The other party then weilds power for a while and then loses it. Back and forth, back and forth. The wheels on the bus go round and round.

servantforuse -> RE: Why the GOP is unraveling. (4/22/2009 6:56:36 PM)
As a republican I can't wait untill 2010. I can see the Senate coming back to the (right) side. It will start with getting a conservative republican back in Pennsylvania. Arlan Spector barely won the primary last time around and won't win in 10. He is more left than moderate and is on his way out.

TheHeretic -> RE: Why the GOP is unraveling. (4/22/2009 8:22:44 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ienigma777 Now, looking ahead; after they change the consitution where a forigen born can be president (that debate will be a show all to itself).....and Arnold comes to meet his destiny......that will be a show. Imagine the debates on this forum. Oh, the humanity. Oh yeah, Ieni. That's gonna happen (not). Governator girlyman. What a spineless waste he turned out to be. The legislature and public employee unions have used him like a stetched out pain slut. You figuring he'd run as a Democrat, or something? Unemployment at 11%-ish, state sales tax just hiked to 9.25%, established business fleeing, and the car tax got hiked. But he's doing something. He just added 1100 more state employees to the shriveling public tit to answer phones at the unemployment office.

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