RE: Bush Approved Use of Insects in al-Qaeda Interrogations (Full Version)

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Christinestill -> RE: Bush Approved Use of Insects in al-Qaeda Interrogations (4/16/2009 10:31:11 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy

quote:

ORIGINAL: Christinestill

well fuck, i guess i can't be out guessed as wanting to be a terrorist.  you guys are so smart you've got me...i'm gotten, take me already while i sit on my delapidated front porch and eat my pork rinds in my second hand house dress...i'm ashamed.


...i do hope you're also taking potshots at the old fridge in the front yard, i hate to see a good stereotype go to waste.

Seriously, let's quote Nietzche.......when you look into the abyss it also looks back into you. 9/11 and its aftermath was a sort of abyss for the US. The hardest thing to do in such cases is to retain the high moral ground. Yet that is how an ideological war is ultimately won...by actually being better than the opponent. Torture is an abdication of the moral high ground.
You don't win against terrorists by becoming more like them, you win by not being like them.


sorry you can't see that i am taking pot shots about everyone here.  not sure where i'm becoming more like a terrorists here, thanks a million by being the high ground for me, i couldnt have made it without you i'm sure.



Owner59 -> RE: Bush Approved Use of Insects in al-Qaeda Interrogations (4/16/2009 10:32:50 PM)

Ironic about what we did in Abu-ghraib,considering that was a reason given to invaded them.

Worse,I heard that more torture is being committed in Iraq now than in Saddam`s Iraq.

But "we" don`t care about torture.Right?



StrangerThan -> RE: Bush Approved Use of Insects in al-Qaeda Interrogations (4/17/2009 2:26:16 AM)

Yeah well, I certainly hope that if we're ever invaded by munchkins or something that they seriously consider throwing caterpillars in my pen rather than doing something like busting the ends of my fingertips with a hammer. Seriously, will some bright star step up and enlighten me as to the torture in that.



Raiikun -> RE: Bush Approved Use of Insects in al-Qaeda Interrogations (4/17/2009 2:31:06 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

It does.

Instead of claiming ignorance of the law,why not be honest and just admit you(and the rest of the neo-cons) don`t really care about the law.


And while you're at it, ask the hundreds of congressmen in the present administration if they really care about the law after they voted in support of a Bill of Attainder, which is forbidden by the Constitution.



Raiikun -> RE: Bush Approved Use of Insects in al-Qaeda Interrogations (4/17/2009 2:34:05 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

But that too is something conservatives don`t really care about.



I'd kinda appreciate it if you'd tone down your bigotry by toning down your stereotyping of a minority of people who don't really fit the word "conservative" and painting them all with that brush.



Raiikun -> RE: Bush Approved Use of Insects in al-Qaeda Interrogations (4/17/2009 3:24:59 AM)

Oh, btw, I think the Time needs to have letters written to correct the title of the article to "Bybee approves use of a single harmless insect."

Because

1) The use of the insect was never actually used, and

2) I see nothing that suggests that Bush gave direct approval for it.



Sanity -> RE: Bush Approved Use of Insects in al-Qaeda Interrogations (4/17/2009 3:37:42 AM)

Could be Conservatives should tread a little more carefully in this area now that we have a far left administration which just declared everyone who disagrees with them potential terrorists.

Cuba? Iran? North Korea? Giggles, footsies, and warm fuzzies.

People who believe in gun rights and border control though?

Bring on the caterpillar!



IrishMist -> RE: Bush Approved Use of Insects in al-Qaeda Interrogations (4/17/2009 5:06:43 AM)

quote:

Would you consider it a big fucking deal if it was your husband, son, or daughter being tortured?

My brother was tortured; and then killed.
I have two sons, both in the service...they refuse to even discuss what happens overseas.
I have a daughter who was also in the service; she spent almost 2 years captured. She was tortured; she still has the physical scars that attest to it.

So, my answer to your question. Would I still consider it a big fucking deal?

No. I would not.

Things happen in wars/conflicts/skirmishes. Things that the general public has no fucking business knowing. Torture is a part of it. Get the fuck over it and stop looking for reasons why.



windchymes -> RE: Bush Approved Use of Insects in al-Qaeda Interrogations (4/17/2009 5:15:45 AM)

Sorry, but given how they have no qualms about blowing up thousands of innocent people at a pop and beheading people alive on camera, I have no problems putting one of them in a box with a bug.

It's obvious that taking the "high road' hasn't gotten us anything but hated around the world, so fuck 'em.  Maybe if we start getting as tough as they are, we might be better off as a country.



StrangerThan -> RE: Bush Approved Use of Insects in al-Qaeda Interrogations (4/17/2009 5:31:07 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: windchymes

Sorry, but given how they have no qualms about blowing up thousands of innocent people at a pop and beheading people alive on camera, I have no problems putting one of them in a box with a bug.

It's obvious that taking the "high road' hasn't gotten us anything but hated around the world, so fuck 'em.  Maybe if we start getting as tough as they are, we might be better off as a country.


I guess my idea of torture is a lot more draconian. About the only one listed I have a problem with and consider outright torture is waterboarding. I find it rather amusing that on a site where just about every single person has been involved in what the human rights groups would describe as torturous conditions, we find such incensed outrage over a bug. A bug, not a box full, not even a mildly dangerous bug.

Ok, straight up question. Who considers the use of this insect to be torture? Stand up and be counted folks.



IrishMist -> RE: Bush Approved Use of Insects in al-Qaeda Interrogations (4/17/2009 5:46:29 AM)

quote:

I guess my idea of torture is a lot more draconian. About the only one listed I have a problem with and consider outright torture is waterboarding. I find it rather amusing that on a site where just about every single person has been involved in what the human rights groups would describe as torturous conditions, we find such incensed outrage over a bug. A bug, not a box full, not even a mildly dangerous bug.

Ok, straight up question. Who considers the use of this insect to be torture? Stand up and be counted folks.

Ohh...but don't you know....those poor poor people...to be subjected to such conditions [8|]

Obviously, anyone who has an axe to grind against any politician would consider this bug torture [8D] 
/sigh
I wonder how they would act if water was withheld instead...probably declare it grounds for war.



slvemike4u -> RE: Bush Approved Use of Insects in al-Qaeda Interrogations (4/17/2009 8:08:36 AM)

So when did this thread become about a caterpillar?This thread,and all such like it isn't about the individual act itself.It is about lawyers codifying torture.Dancing with the devil as they decide this act is okay,this act is not designed to leave any lasting  trauma.That position won't lead to long term damage.This is your govt approving of using tactics we once prosecuted Japanese officers for after WW II.All in reaction to terrorism...pretty much the goal of terrorists.
  Funny thing is,if these fora can be used as any indication,half(if not more) of my fellow citizens don't care.They have no problem with their Govt going into the torture business.....



kittinSol -> RE: Bush Approved Use of Insects in al-Qaeda Interrogations (4/17/2009 8:14:36 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

So when did this thread become about a caterpillar?



When it finally blossoms into a beautiful butterfly [&:] .



slvemike4u -> RE: Bush Approved Use of Insects in al-Qaeda Interrogations (4/17/2009 8:20:58 AM)

Ahhh metamorphosis....we can only hope.



kittinSol -> RE: Bush Approved Use of Insects in al-Qaeda Interrogations (4/17/2009 8:25:52 AM)

Indeed. It's all very kafkaesque.



StrangerThan -> RE: Bush Approved Use of Insects in al-Qaeda Interrogations (4/17/2009 8:29:45 AM)

Given the topic, the quote

"The Bush Administration approved the use of "insects placed in a confinement box" during the interrogation of top Al Qaeda official Abu Zubaydah, according to a 2002 document that President Obama declassified for release Thursday."

The first few replies, the 1984 reference...

It became about a caterpillar when I went and read the article.

That's when.

And we do care about torture. I guess we just have different ideas of what torture is. One of mine is trying to figure out the mental processes behind splashing a headline in two places about a caterpillar, and including actual conversation about the use of said caterpillar.

I'm glad it's there though in a way. Otherwise, by now, we'd be talking about the black widows and scorpions.

I am curious though for all the folks out here looking for torture, what your concept of it is.

What constitutes torture?





slvemike4u -> RE: Bush Approved Use of Insects in al-Qaeda Interrogations (4/17/2009 8:36:50 AM)

Torture is watching my country and its citizens tie themselves in knots defending such practices.Torture is watching my elected officials discuss the utility of using such techniques....value garnished ,verse damage done to our reputation.Torture was watching my country slip further down a slope it should never have ventured near.That's a few definitions of torture of mine,and if I sound a little pissed off its allright...we should all be a little pissed off at what has transpired in our name.



kittinSol -> RE: Bush Approved Use of Insects in al-Qaeda Interrogations (4/17/2009 8:39:25 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: StrangerThan

What constitutes torture?



Cool question to ask on a BDSM website.

According to the UN Convention Against Torture, torture is "any act by which severe pain or suffering, whether physical or mental, is intentionally inflicted on a male or female person for such purposes as obtaining from him, or a third person, information or a confession, punishing him for an act he or a third person has committed or is suspected of having committed, or intimidating or coercing him or a third person, or for any reason based on discrimination of any kind, when such pain or suffering is inflicted by or at the instigation of or with the consent or acquiescence of a public official or other person acting in an official capacity. It does not include pain or suffering arising only from, inherent in, or incidental to, lawful sanctions."

PS: This is torture.



kdsub -> RE: Bush Approved Use of Insects in al-Qaeda Interrogations (4/17/2009 8:45:25 AM)

I understand the arguments and feelings of both side of this question they’re certainly understandable.

But if we must fight isn’t it best to fight for our way of life with honor and fairness. We are lucky as a nation we don’t need to fight for survival as many must.

I fought for the above ideals…I was proud that we were different then our adversaries…my brother fought and died for those ideals too. To me the actions of Bush disgraced his sacrifice.

I believe people should be held accountable…if not criminally prosecuted than at least admonished and exposed for what they are.

The better man withholds the sword from the defeated...charity is sweeter then the bitter taste of revenge.

Butch



philosophy -> RE: Bush Approved Use of Insects in al-Qaeda Interrogations (4/17/2009 8:49:26 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

But if we must fight isn’t it best to fight for our way of life with honor and fairness.


....nicely said.



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