RE: Equality within D/s (Full Version)

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pixidustpet -> RE: Equality within D/s (4/16/2009 11:21:57 PM)

i'm with blushes.

i am not "less than" because he does not treat me as "less than".  i am HIS submissive, no one else's.  he is the one who uses me, loves me, keeps me in line when needed, worries about me.  in public, he opens doors for me, he pulls out my chair, he is courteous, he includes me in conversation and respects my opinions.  in private, he treasures me, spanks me, reminds me that i am the "mere sex slave" (although i am more than that to him), and makes me laugh.

i am not equal to him in many ways.  this doesnt bother either of us.  i am where he wants me, and where i want to be.  as long as we are both happy in this arrangement (and free to discuss when we are not happy) this is what we both want.

clear as mud?  [:D]

kitten 



IronBear -> RE: Equality within D/s (4/17/2009 1:02:17 AM)

'Twas once stated that "All men are equal but some are more equal than others!" Allowing the term to include all genders, it probably sums up the D/.s relationships I've seen. Come to think of it, it probably sums up the M/s relations I know too.. Of course if it were to be asked if all Dominants were equal, the same reply I would give because not all Dominants are equal when you take into account knowledge, experience, ability, teaching ability, learning ability and willingness as well as carisma and personality. But then this applies to people outside the kink or BDSM world too doesn't it?




LadyPact -> RE: Equality within D/s (4/17/2009 1:04:22 AM)

Sorry, IB.  It's a little early in the morning in My time zone to be quoting Orwell.



faithfulfemme -> RE: Equality within D/s (4/17/2009 1:49:37 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: hopelessfool

im kind of reminded of a sarcastic quote about now " your unique just like everybody else"

while i have the same value as a human being as my partner, i have the same worth as him. Im also reminded of Aquaticsubs sig line at one point (sorry if its mangled) With out my dominance there be no submission and with out your submission there can be no dominance we are equal in this though our roles are different.

some dont want equality thats great. but to me if a dom things his capital D makes his needs more important or my little s makes my needs points opinons or anything less valid, hes not the dom for me. but then everyones different. if my partner treated me like i was some how less for my submission or i was some how less in any way shape or form he wouldnt be my partner long.




hopelessfool, i love that signature line of Aquaticsub's.....it absolutely shows the equality of submissives and Dominants.
 
i also agree with you that if any D type feels their needs to be more important than any s type's, they wouldn't be my D type very long....[:D]....a Ds relationship is one where both should have their needs met, in whatever form that may take. 
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MissMorrigan -> RE: Equality within D/s (4/17/2009 2:37:44 AM)

I don't see any lambs today, Rayne.

What you are referring to in your OP is egalitarian D/s, wherein the persons in such a relationship believe themselves to be peers and their roles, equal. If that is indeed the case, what they have is not a D/s relationship but rather one that is considered normal with kinky attributes.  To consider the persons within a power exchange relationship as 'equal'  removes the power from the Dominant and instills authority in the submissive.

If you want to break it down to a simplified form, take a typical work environment. Substitute the manager's role for a Dom/me and the subordinate for the submissive, and you now hvae a power exchange relaitonship. Each has their responsibilities, but the submissive can effectively attend to their responsibilities and duties confidently in the knowledge that they are under instruction and the ultimate decision in most cases lies with the Dominant person - where is the equality?  Each has strengths and weaknesses, which is why they are in their respective positions. 



Fitznicely -> RE: Equality within D/s (4/17/2009 2:42:26 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Rayne749

Fitznicely - Thanks for your post, that is another point I have been considering, You say "It's when there's inequality that things begin to fall apart".
To my way of thinking how can a healthy relationship (D/s or otherwise) be built when there is a basic inequality there?



I don't think it can.

It's too simple to run around saying "I'm Dominant, so you're not My equal". A Dominant might feel the need to believe this for egotistical reasons, but that doesn't necessarily make it true. There's a natural balance to any relationship, D/s or otherwise. One gives, one receives, one falls, one is there to catch.

Where there's inequality - and to My mind, this is the majority of cases - one or both parties are unhappy, with there being a lack of balance, a lack of equal commitment to the relationship, and cracks soon show from the strain. Everyone reading this will acknowledge that they've seen/been a part of such things. I know I have, whether it be a simple friendship, D/s arrangement or marriage.

I don't see any natural inequality to a D/s relationship. I assume a sub is My equal, as they will, if it's to work out, put in as much to the relationship as I will. The roles W/we play compliment each other and, ideally, balance is struck.



eyesopened -> RE: Equality within D/s (4/17/2009 2:46:14 AM)

I remember a picture I once saw of two oxen yoked together.  One ox was considerably larger than the other.  The yoke had bends and curves in it so that the two oxen would be able to pull the plow or wagon side by side.  You don't have to be equally yoked to pull together.

The relationship is the yoke. 

You can decide to buy a straight pre-fab yoke and try to find identical oxen.  This may take a huge amount of time and in the meantime how is the field getting plowed?  Or you custom make the yoke to fit the oxen you have. 

In reality there is no equality anyway.  The only thing anyone has in equal to another is 24 hours in a day.  However, unequally yoked still have a common purpose and goal and isn't that what you want anyway?



MissMorrigan -> RE: Equality within D/s (4/17/2009 3:00:34 AM)

That's a nice, romantic sojourn through M & B, Fitz. The energy that both Dominant and submissive put into the power exchange dynamic should be equal, when it isn't, that's when issues arise.  The power dynamic is anything but equal and to indicate otherwise denotes neutrality.



Fitznicely -> RE: Equality within D/s (4/17/2009 3:12:11 AM)

Morri,

You see neutrality, I see balance.



GoddessTeaze -> RE: Equality within D/s (4/17/2009 3:22:19 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rayne749

Hi everyone,
Wasn't sure where to post this so please excuse me if you feel it doesn't fit. (and let me know where it would be better posted if you could!!)

I have been having a discussion about equality with a Dom.
He states that while both the Dom and the sub are worth as much as each other, they are not equal. Well I just don't get this? I might be opening myself up for a slaughtering but hey, i'm just trying to understand. (btw, this is based on a two person, male Dom, fem sub, 24/7 relationship)

I think (and I may be wrong, i'm not infallible after all!) that yes the two are worth as much as each other, and yes the power ratio is unequal, and that one leads the other follows. No qualms there.
But overall I look at it like a version of good and evil, or yin and yang.  two very opposite parts that make the whole, and are equal (perhaps not in a conventional sense, but we are talking D/s and not vanilla), because one cannot be greater than the other as they are limited by the other.

So how does equality come into it? Besides the obvious power part of it? (this includes what comes from it, day to day activities, choices etc).

To my way of thinking to be unequal means that one side is greater (to which he agreed and said the Dom was greater), but the Dom is limited by his perceptions and beliefs, and the subs limits and capabilities, and vise versa i would suggest. Or am I wrong there?

I may have missed something here, cos i'm just not getting it. Yes certain parts of the relationship are unequal, that is what gives it the D/s dynamic, but to say the two people invovled are not equal...as a good friend of mine said  "in essesnce they are equal - two different parts of the same whole - neither more or less than the other.... ".

I guess its just not sitting with me right, and i'm trying to find out why.
And yes I have asked him to explain it differently so that I might understand, obiously it's not working, haha.

All thoughts are welcome, if you need me to expand or clarify anything just ask.

Thanks
Rayne



Hello Rayne, there are many people
and many different believes on this topic. To Me
people are equal ! And nothing else.
Simply because We're human beings, and
one person can do this better and the other that thing.
It doesn't mean they are less then somebody else.

I want a relationship based upon equality
otherwise there won't be anything
to start with.

When they are compatible together in D/s
it's great, but without a sub, there is No Dominant
and without a Dominant there is no sub, so you
need each other in this.

Trust your guts feeling, and I wish you enough.

GoddezzT`





MissMorrigan -> RE: Equality within D/s (4/17/2009 3:22:37 AM)

And there should be a balance, but enjoying a harmonious relationship still does not equate to a power exchange relationship referred to as 'D/s'. Where is the equality in power exchange other than in terms of emotional/physical application, it does nothing to alter orientation nor the dynamic. 



Fitznicely -> RE: Equality within D/s (4/17/2009 3:33:58 AM)

Morri,

I believe i mentioned that, although I didn't make reference to power exchange.

There has to be someone to take the power from, as much as there needs to be someone to give power to. Emotional needs aside, that is balance at it's most basic. It may FEEL inequal, those involved may not wish to believe there's equality there. It exists, regardless.



DesFIP -> RE: Equality within D/s (4/17/2009 4:28:47 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MissMorrigan

I don't see any lambs today, Rayne.

What you are referring to in your OP is egalitarian D/s, wherein the persons in such a relationship believe themselves to be peers and their roles, equal. If that is indeed the case, what they have is not a D/s relationship but rather one that is considered normal with kinky attributes.  To consider the persons within a power exchange relationship as 'equal'  removes the power from the Dominant and instills authority in the submissive.

If you want to break it down to a simplified form, take a typical work environment. Substitute the manager's role for a Dom/me and the subordinate for the submissive, and you now hvae a power exchange relaitonship. Each has their responsibilities, but the submissive can effectively attend to their responsibilities and duties confidently in the knowledge that they are under instruction and the ultimate decision in most cases lies with the Dominant person - where is the equality?  Each has strengths and weaknesses, which is why they are in their respective positions. 


I disagree. I am of equal value in the relationship. If I wasn't here, he'd have to do his own laundry and get by without getting his cock sucked whenever he wanted. He could growl "On your knees girl" to the empty room but it wouldn't do him much.

Same for the manager. He could go about having a weekly meeting and giving assignments to a room full of empty chairs. It still wouldn't get the work done. He needs the employees to do the work, their value is equal. It is their power that is not.

Value does not equal power.



agirl -> RE: Equality within D/s (4/17/2009 4:53:23 AM)

I'm not *equal* to lots of people....including the womb-escapers.

Equal in what?......I can't cook as well as M ......I can't do Math equations as well as my geeky son.

The part where IN-equality comes into it , for US , is that HE has the veto, HE has to final say , HE gets the *yea or nay* . I agreed to that for very good and sound reasons. I'm not affronted by the in-equality of something I wanted.

I don't have the *yeah or nay* .....so nope , I'm not *equal*. Oh dear , how sad, never mind. But wait ....... that's what I wanted.

You can't MAKE or mould a relationship into any kind of *equalness*...Who is measuring the balance or the scales??

agoirl







MissMorrigan -> RE: Equality within D/s (4/17/2009 5:01:43 AM)

I did not state a submissive and what they bring to the relationship is not valued or thought of in terms of 'less than'. What I have stated is that the dynamic is unequal, not each person's value. As for the managerial analogy, Reality's absence does nothing to incapacitate me or reduce/undermine my authority, I am more than capable of contributing or fully undertaking tasks otherwise allocated to him, as I'm sure managers in the workplace are equally capable of either mucking in when staff are short, or pulling in replacement. 



Kana -> RE: Equality within D/s (4/17/2009 5:06:57 AM)

This is just my POV, but who cares cares about equality

She's property
I own her
End of story.






Fitznicely -> RE: Equality within D/s (4/17/2009 5:09:28 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: MissMorrigan
I'm sure managers in the workplace are equally capable of [...] mucking in when staff are short. 


Nope, you've lost me on this one [sm=biggrin.gif]



IrishMist -> RE: Equality within D/s (4/17/2009 5:12:32 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MissMorrigan

I don't see any lambs today, Rayne.

What you are referring to in your OP is egalitarian D/s, wherein the persons in such a relationship believe themselves to be peers and their roles, equal. If that is indeed the case, what they have is not a D/s relationship but rather one that is considered normal with kinky attributes.  To consider the persons within a power exchange relationship as 'equal'  removes the power from the Dominant and instills authority in the submissive.

If you want to break it down to a simplified form, take a typical work environment. Substitute the manager's role for a Dom/me and the subordinate for the submissive, and you now hvae a power exchange relaitonship. Each has their responsibilities, but the submissive can effectively attend to their responsibilities and duties confidently in the knowledge that they are under instruction and the ultimate decision in most cases lies with the Dominant person - where is the equality?  Each has strengths and weaknesses, which is why they are in their respective positions. 

I like how this was put; well stated.



Kaiel -> RE: Equality within D/s (4/17/2009 5:15:51 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: eyesopened

I remember a picture I once saw of two oxen yoked together.  One ox was considerably larger than the other.  The yoke had bends and curves in it so that the two oxen would be able to pull the plow or wagon side by side.  You don't have to be equally yoked to pull together.

The relationship is the yoke. 

You can decide to buy a straight pre-fab yoke and try to find identical oxen.  This may take a huge amount of time and in the meantime how is the field getting plowed?  Or you custom make the yoke to fit the oxen you have. 

In reality there is no equality anyway.  The only thing anyone has in equal to another is 24 hours in a day.  However, unequally yoked still have a common purpose and goal and isn't that what you want anyway?


I agree with your analogy... I don't believe that any relationship is equal, not D/s, M/s... mother/child, father/son, husband/wife... etc... I think people should have equal VALUE in a relationship and believe that relationships are give and take, reciprocal. The term "evenly yoked" is what you have described above, that is what I believe a relationship should be, two people heading toward the same mutual goal. I also agree that even if the pair is unevenly yoked they could still have the same purpose and goal, one person may just work harder from time to time.



leadership527 -> RE: Equality within D/s (4/17/2009 6:39:40 AM)

Hello Rayne:

The word "equal" is a slippery thing. Depending on how you take it, no two humans are ever equal or else we all are or something in between. I tend to see things with myself and my wife this way. The two of us are engaged in a task. We call it, "be happy till you die." This is a team activity and we are both contributing according to our skills and abilities to achieve this task. My skills and abilities, however, allow me to contribute by being in charge. Her skills and abilities generally allow her to contribute better by not being in charge.

I do and always have seen my wife as my equal in all ways. It's just we have different roles within our marriage and I express my love for her by bossing her around. She expressed her love for me by being bossed around. In the end, we are a team, each contributing our unique selves to the jointly held goal of "be happy till you die." If you want my guess, the reason you two can't see eye to eye on this is that it's the wrong question so no answer anyone comes up with is actually going to be sensible.



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