RE: Am i not Submissive Enough?

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Sylverdawn -> RE: Am i not Submissive Enough? (11/14/2004 2:29:58 AM)
Ok I am probably going to get my ass reamed here ...because I have an alternative view point on the general idea of submissive enough. While I agree this fellow is probably Captain of the HNG asshole brigade.. My question is did she agree to follow some of his rules? Was she in that period of getting to know him and had agreed to limited influnce. We dont know.. We dont have to like how other people exercise their control because there are people out there who will judge how we choose to do it.. Do I agree that a collared submissive has the right to question?.. com ce com sa... In the general context of that question absolutely... If a command is not clear... If there is something perplexing about a specific task.. questioning is often a subtle form of rebellion.. explain WHY to me .. Why is simply because that is how I wish it to be.. I wish to have my toliet paper placed over the top rather than under the bottom.. I wish to have my towels folded three quarters rather than in half .. I wish for you never to eat before me and always to ask persmission before eating.. I wish for you to take salt out of your diet.. I wish you not to speak right now... and so forth.. and so on. If there is a problem a question in public can be a form of open defiance.. subs are people too and completely capable of manipulating a situation despite the dynamics of their relationship. So for me there must be a machanism in place for questions .. a specific time and place for the more complex Why's and wherefore's of a D/s relationship rather than the simple clarifications that daily living can bring up. As to submissive enough.. well honestly yes.. there are people who Iwould say are not submissive enough for me.. But then I hold to the belief that there are bottoms, submissives, and slaves.. each seperate in their identity. I have played with all three, owned one submissive and one slave, had a long term relationship with bottom.. all intersting all fun.. Each person comes with a preset idea of what this or that is so infact someone can be NOT submissive enough.. I suppose it depends on how you define that concept. Submissive seems to me to have become a catch all for the ones on the other end of the dynamic.. and thusly people claim it who are in fact not actually submissive.. but a really good service bottom or whatever.. titles can be misleading in this lifestyle in more than one way.

wetrope -> RE: Am i not Submissive Enough? (11/14/2004 3:32:53 AM)
Submissiveness is a gift one gives to a top who they either adore, or would like to please because it gives the sub satisfaction in doing so. There are a number of on-line dom's (on line because they are not real time) who can print pages and pages of rules for potential subs who then have to perform them. Often it involved not only daily phone calls, but daily journals, daily positions that subs have to practice, daily cam sessions with the so called dom. Well I hate to burst ur bubble but many subs iv talked to, many i have met, call it what it is, a mirage. These dom's will never meet you, never have a real relationship with, only lots of paper and cam pictures to watch in his lonely little life. So hold onto ur submissiveness a give it to one who will appreciate it.

Sylverdawn -> RE: Am i not Submissive Enough? (11/14/2004 5:14:01 AM)
Again, I disagree Submission is not a gift.. a gift is something one gives without expectation.. Submission is a need, emotional mental and physical. You can be submissive without a Dom and you can be Dom without a Submissive. but you can not explore your nature without the other. Therefore as to term it a gift is to not acknowledge the cyclical nature of the D/s relationship. It is symbiotic in nature .. further adoration, romantic love are all concepts that exist outside of that relationship.. you need to trust and respect .. I have to often seen the D/s relationship romanticized into some sort of higher state of being one more step beyond the commitment of marriage .. it simply isn't .. its about POWER and CONTROL.. and who wields it for the benefit of whom. regards SD

perverseangelic -> RE: Am i not Submissive Enough? (11/14/2004 10:56:02 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Sylverdawn Again, I disagree Submission is not a gift.. a gift is something one gives without expectation.. Submission is a need, emotional mental and physical. You can be submissive without a Dom and you can be Dom without a Submissive. but you can not explore your nature without the other. Therefore as to term it a gift is to not acknowledge the cyclical nature of the D/s relationship. It is symbiotic in nature .. further adoration, romantic love are all concepts that exist outside of that relationship.. you need to trust and respect .. I have to often seen the D/s relationship romanticized into some sort of higher state of being one more step beyond the commitment of marriage .. it simply isn't .. its about POWER and CONTROL.. and who wields it for the benefit of whom. regards SD Thank you so much for writing this. I've been trying to put into words -why- I disagree with the "submission as gift" idea, and this puts my ideas into words perfectly. May I have permision to copy this into my journal here (with credit of course) and to use a derivative of this whenever someone asks me why I don't like it?

Yankeestick -> RE: Am i not Submissive Enough? (11/14/2004 11:03:19 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: perverseangelic quote: ORIGINAL: Sylverdawn Again, I disagree Submission is not a gift.. a gift is something one gives without expectation.. Submission is a need, emotional mental and physical. You can be submissive without a Dom and you can be Dom without a Submissive. but you can not explore your nature without the other. Therefore as to term it a gift is to not acknowledge the cyclical nature of the D/s relationship. It is symbiotic in nature .. further adoration, romantic love are all concepts that exist outside of that relationship.. you need to trust and respect .. I have to often seen the D/s relationship romanticized into some sort of higher state of being one more step beyond the commitment of marriage .. it simply isn't .. its about POWER and CONTROL.. and who wields it for the benefit of whom. regards SD Thank you so much for writing this. I've been trying to put into words -why- I disagree with the "submission as gift" idea, and this puts my ideas into words perfectly. I'm a both/and person on this question. Let me use "love" as an example, rather than "submission". Is love a need, for me to be fully self-actualized in the Maslow sense of that term? Undoubtedly yes. And judging from the persistence of St Valentine's day, it's probably as close to a universal BEING need (not deficiency need) as we're likely to find. Is love a gift, when I choose to enter a relationship with another? I can't speak for anyone else, but it surely is for me. So, love is both profound need, and a gift for me to give as one human being to another. My perspective on dominance is the same: both a profound need, and a gift that I choose to give as one human being to another. And I consider submission the same. Both/and...not either/or. Just my opinion...YMMV. Best, Yankeestick

Sylverdawn -> RE: Am i not Submissive Enough? (11/14/2004 6:33:50 PM)
I do not see love as a gift either.. it is the outcome of a specific type of relationship.. it is the result of a physical, mental, emotional chemistry that forms itself into a long term bond. Love is a term that umbrellas a series of emotions and needs. Its an identifier .. You need to feel a physical closeness to a person, you need social interaction, you need sexual interaction. Love is a simple name for a complex series of psychologies . What you gift or give or rather INVEST is your time, your attention, your physical being in a relationship. I have a problem with the bestowing aspect of the gift idea.. “I hereby bestow on you my love.. my life.. etc..” no what we do is enter into an agreement that is for the mutal benefit of each other ..each being responsible for the success and or failure of that relationship. A gift is something you give away and you are no longer responsible for it. I am very very responsible for my relationships and the choices made inside them.. I fought hard to get here and I fought hard to maintain them.. the choices have cost me and rewarded me in many ways.. I want to be acknowledged for the work that it takes to have success and for overcoming the failures.

HisV -> RE: Am i not Submissive Enough? (11/14/2004 6:43:25 PM)
lizzy, Submissive does not mean DOORMAT. You have every right to question the Dom. You need to make sure the "fit" is right before you submit. Feel them out. Get an idea of their expectations of you and let them know what it is you expect in return. The key here is communication. It takes TWO. For some, they are looking for an asshole to mistreat them. And if that is what they want, all the more happy for them. But you need to find the right Dom for YOU. Be nice, be curteous, but do not be anyone's doormat - well at least not until you're collared. :) Feel free to contact me if you have any questions.. HUG Wish you the best in your search.

HisV -> RE: Am i not Submissive Enough? (11/14/2004 6:46:26 PM)
EXACTLY!!!!!!!

Yankeestick -> RE: Am i not Submissive Enough? (11/14/2004 6:59:38 PM)
quote: I do not see love as a gift either.. it is the outcome of a specific type of relationship.. it is the result of a physical, mental, emotional chemistry that forms itself into a long term bond. Love is a term that umbrellas a series of emotions and needs. Its an identifier .. You need to feel a physical closeness to a person, you need social interaction, you need sexual interaction. Love is a simple name for a complex series of psychologies . What you gift or give or rather INVEST is your time, your attention, your physical being by in a relationship. That's your take, and I respect it. OTOH, many see love as an act of the will - a free choice to invest (your word) time, energy, etc in another human being. It's something a person chooses to give - thus a gift. Again, YMMV. Best, Yankeestick

perverseangelic -> RE: Am i not Submissive Enough? (11/14/2004 8:56:27 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Yankeestick I'm a both/and person on this question. Let me use "love" as an example, rather than "submission". Is love a need, for me to be fully self-actualized in the Maslow sense of that term? Undoubtedly yes. And judging from the persistence of St Valentine's day, it's probably as close to a universal BEING need (not deficiency need) as we're likely to find. Is love a gift, when I choose to enter a relationship with another? I can't speak for anyone else, but it surely is for me. So, love is both profound need, and a gift for me to give as one human being to another. My perspective on dominance is the same: both a profound need, and a gift that I choose to give as one human being to another. And I consider submission the same. Both/and...not either/or. Just my opinion...YMMV. Best, Yankeestick I agree with you. I think I get caught up in either/or here because it seems that this is how it is presented, often. I hear so much about The Gift of Submission (tm), and when I try to voice an alternate opinion, I'm often (not always) told I feel that way because I'm young and my partner is young so I haven't been able to truly give that gift. Bah. (can you tell is this a huge huge huge pet peeve?) "Gift" to me -does- say too little about the reciprocity of a relationship. I wouldn't want to give the gift of my love to someone, if they didn't return it, and doesn't the expectation of return negate the idea of "gift"? Maybe it's a semantics argument, because I think I'm trying to say the same thing as you.

Voltare -> RE: Am i not Submissive Enough? (11/15/2004 9:54:18 AM)
Sylverdawn, great post. I was thinking many of the same things as I read the earlier responses. As for a bit more dissention, I would suggest a couple more (unpopular) things. As for love and submission being gifts, there are no small number of subs (and Dominants) who believe exactly that - that the submissives love and/or submission is a gift to be loved, cherished, etc. I say more power to them if it floats there boat. It isn't how I approach relationships, but I don't see anything inherently wrong with feeling this way. There are reasons I don't think it's the best way to approach the relationship, but just like I can think of 10 great reasons to buy a motorcycle instead of car, who am I to judge people who buy cars and love them? As for the man in question, sure he sounds like an asshole to me - but that doesn't make his 'style' any better or worse. I've seen dozens and dozens of profiles on this site where the submissive/slave proclaims that he/she desires to be objectified, to be seen as worthless, to be reduced to an animal in a cage, blah blah blah.... and of course many of these profiles are fakes or by people living a fantasy world (I had the misfortune of attempting a relationship with a woman like this about a year ago) but the automatic assumption that anyone who expects absolute control from the beginning is somehow twisted or wrong seems a bit heavy handed. The original poster sounded like she had a good idea of what she wants, and it's fortunate for her that the man showed his true colors from the start. lizzy, you sound like you have a good idea of what you want, and I wish you the best of luck in your search. Stephan

Yankeestick -> RE: Am i not Submissive Enough? (11/15/2004 10:20:15 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: perverseangelic quote: ORIGINAL: Yankeestick I'm a both/and person on this question. Let me use "love" as an example, rather than "submission". Is love a need, for me to be fully self-actualized in the Maslow sense of that term? Undoubtedly yes. And judging from the persistence of St Valentine's day, it's probably as close to a universal BEING need (not deficiency need) as we're likely to find. Is love a gift, when I choose to enter a relationship with another? I can't speak for anyone else, but it surely is for me. So, love is both profound need, and a gift for me to give as one human being to another. My perspective on dominance is the same: both a profound need, and a gift that I choose to give as one human being to another. And I consider submission the same. Both/and...not either/or. Just my opinion...YMMV. Best, Yankeestick I agree with you. I think I get caught up in either/or here because it seems that this is how it is presented, often. I hear so much about The Gift of Submission (tm), and when I try to voice an alternate opinion, I'm often (not always) told I feel that way because I'm young and my partner is young so I haven't been able to truly give that gift. Bah. (can you tell is this a huge huge huge pet peeve?) I can, and I don't blame you one bit for being pissed off at the condescension about your age, or the one-way street in talking about such gifts. quote: "Gift" to me -does- say too little about the reciprocity of a relationship. I wouldn't want to give the gift of my love to someone, if they didn't return it, and doesn't the expectation of return negate the idea of "gift"? No, on the contrary, there is a powerful social psychology argument for the opposite: The very nature of gift giving in all kinds of societies (including ours) and all kinds of relationships (including yours and mine) illustrate perfectly that the understood expectation IS, in fact, reciprocity - regardless of what form the reciprocity takes. It's one of Robert Cialdini's 6 foundational principles of influence in his seminal book of the same name. quote: Maybe it's a semantics argument, because I think I'm trying to say the same thing as you. I think you are too - it's just that the low signal to noise ratio in the bdsm community on this one has made it difficult to have the discussion without rousing the sleeping dragons of our pet peeves. Best - Yankeestick

Voltare -> RE: Am i not Submissive Enough? (11/15/2004 10:43:50 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: perverseangelic "Gift" to me -does- say too little about the reciprocity of a relationship. I wouldn't want to give the gift of my love to someone, if they didn't return it, and doesn't the expectation of return negate the idea of "gift"? I've always felt that if I really loved someone, their feelings for me were irrelevent - that is to say I don't expect their love in return. Having said that, I also believe that loving someone doesn't mean devoting your life to them, or expecting it in return. Lifestyle choices, when motivated by love, are great. Lifestyle choices, motivated by love, that are impractical or harmful are not so great. Just my 2 cents Stephan

Nvernilla -> RE: Am i not Submissive Enough? (11/15/2004 6:05:34 PM)
So I just wondered if this dude who wanted to call you " cunt " did he call himself master something or other? Be patient your Knight will appear sublizzy...Mike

TaurusMCMLVIII -> RE: Am i not Submissive Enough? (11/15/2004 11:27:51 PM)
quote: i guess my question is this: if i want to be a sub am i not allowed to question a Dom? Honestly i thought that was kind of the point, to do that kind of thing up front, before we actually meet, but perhaps i am wrong. Your post has received a huge amount of responses (which I haven't scanned) so I'm sure that 'm not telling you something that hasn't already been said. You are absolutely correct in questioning a Dom. The exploratory phase is the time to do this extensively. And it should never stop even once in a Dom/slave relationship. If the Dom feels other wise then I will use a quote that somebody has already posted in describing that type of dom... "asshole".

MasterDerek5 -> RE: Am i not Submissive Enough? (11/16/2004 7:25:10 PM)
Dear sublizzy, Sorry you had to go through that. In my opinion any good Dominant would have never pressed you like that know ing you have no experience. Go find a Master who will teach you, slowly give you more experiences and increase his control very gradually so that you can learn and develop properly. You found a guy that wants instant control because he is a guy not because he is your Master and has earned your obedience. Keep looking and if you need to talk or if you have any questions I'd be glad to help you or explain terms etc. Regards, Master Derek

LadySonelle -> RE: Am i not Submissive Enough? (11/18/2004 4:42:15 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: sublizzy Hello to All, i am very new to this, as in no real life experience, which i had hoped to change when i found this site. i have spoken to a few people by email and there is one that i am very hopeful about, but there is also one who has made me so angry that i could spit. Some Dominants can do that to a person. Particularly when they have one style of domination and the sub has a different style of submission. quote: He told me to refer to myself from here on out as 'cunt' Yep! That would have ticked Me off (were I in submissive mode) straight away! I think My first response would have been to snap "Oh, so if I'm a cunt, what does that say of a man who can only dominate cunts?" He sounds a right tosser to Me. quote: and to check in and out with him before going/leaving work and other rules that made it feel like this is 24/7, which i don't want right now, a fact that i never hid. When i questioned some of his rules, he got angry Bad move on his part! When a sub stops obeying or emailoing, the first thing I do is ask if everything's all right. People have daily lives to lead and things happen. quote: and when he didn't hear from me for a few days (after a rather horrid death in the family) i received several insulting/taunting emails. According to him, because i question any of his rules, i am not submissive and do not belong on this site. He says i am trying to pawn myself off as a sub/slave when i am obviously not. Without even asking you what was wrong. Sorry, but he's projecting his own failings onto you. Sounds a lot to Me like a leather upholstered asshole! quote: i guess my question is this: if i want to be a sub am i not allowed to question a Dom? Honestly i thought that was kind of the point, to do that kind of thing up front, before we actually meet, but perhaps i am wrong. No, you aren't wrong at all. This whole scene is based on mutual consent. You are agreeing to be dominated, the Dom is agreeing to give you experiences and sensations you need. If you have a question, it ought to be addressed! quote: While i know in my heart i am submissive, i don't want to be a full-time slave, and i'm not sure i want to give myself to someone i'm not allowed to 'talk' to. i hope this all makes sense and i would really appreciate any thoughts you have on this matter. i really would like to explore this side of myself, but i don't want to make a list of enemies in the process and i feel like i have one now. I hope not! If he hassles you, warn him and if he persists, call the cops! Check on this site for threads about harassment by putting 'harassment' into the search at the top of the forum. He has NO RIGHT to harass or annoy you if you do not want him to! quote: Thanks to All of You, lizzy More than welcome! NO submissive should suffer the whims of a bad Top! Sadly, it can be difficult to tell one from another without experience. He is not representative of Doms as a whole. I have met many many good, true, caring, sensual Dominant men and you will find the perfect one with a little time. Take care, be well and don't lose heart. Lady Sonelle

LadySonelle -> RE: Am i not Submissive Enough? (11/18/2004 4:50:43 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Sinergy quote: 3 page single spaced doctrine I was once given an assignment for a 400 level class in college for a class paper which asked for 12-15 pages. My finished assignment was 38 pages long, not including the pages of bibliographical information and footnotes. I got an A+ with the notation at the top that it was ready to send to a publisher, and the name and address of a good publisher to send it to. 3 pages single spaced hardly seems like a punishment. Sinergy I would give the submissive one page, single spaced with smacks for each typo. Oh... Did I mention that they are to hit the keys with pencils strapped to their nipple clamps? :D Lady Sonelle

LadySonelle -> RE: Am i not Submissive Enough? (11/18/2004 5:03:25 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: theroebabe Hi Lizzy, I am not a dom but i will throw my two cents in anyway as people have told me i am not a sub either! I was going to post a like minded question on the same thing! Well i have been active in the life for 4 years, i have had 2 serious relationships and yet with a group of like minded people i just got the same thing "Roe you dont act sub enough, you dont lower your eyes you dont do this or that" This is from a group of people i know and cherish in my heart, that i eat dinner with once a week and spend hours talking to. all because i do not submit to anyone in the group (nor should i or will i submit to the group). Horse hockey! You are exactly as sub, or valid, as you feel you are and nobody can change your own definition of yourself. As for a person not being "submissive" enough, well, maybe for those who don't have the ego-force to tolerate a proud submissive! Maybe I'm wired differently, but to Me a person who is collected, aware of him or herself, head high because s/he KNOWS s/he's good, makes Me HOT! When a person is showing a horse or a dog, they WANT that animal to trot out, head up, tail high (unless that's a carriage fault for the breed) stepping proud and strong, obedient but with a certain flash and flair. Having owned such an animal and ridden other such animals, and Topped such submissives, I cannot tell you the rush it gives! To see My lovely lifepartner (as she once did at a club) stride across the room, her collar flashing in the light, looking for all the world as if the place belonged to her, then come and gently kneel at My feet, head bowed to Me... Hot, hot, HOT! People occasionally mistook her for a Top, until they saw us together. I'll leave the 'sluts' 'cunts' 'worms' etc to the ones who want that sort of thing... I want PRIDE! Lady Sonelle

SirRender -> RE: Am i not Submissive Enough? (11/18/2004 5:53:44 PM)
I'll be the first to admit, I read alot but havent really come in here and said much, but when I read this one it kinda pissed me off. And, I came in here upset but then read some of the other things people had to say and got over it. Leonidis also put a different twist to it ( and I had to laugh), but Damn, people are something else.Guess that's why Im such a loner, and the older I get the more Im losing my patience. I must be old then, lol. I apologize but I just cant get over the selfishness and disrespect people dish out. And expect RESPECT after that type of behavior, lol. I'll stop now, later.

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