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RE: Mysterious horse deaths - 4/22/2009 5:33:10 AM   
Louve00


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Status: offline 		Well, pigs aren't thorobreds, they don't win million dollar races.  Nor do cows.  I do have a feeling if this happened to dogs at a dog show we would indeed be hearing a stir about it.  I believe, despite the fact we have horse admirers and every other kind of animal admirer out there.  The money invested in these money making animals is at stake here.  Just my opinion.

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RE: Mysterious horse deaths - 4/22/2009 5:35:58 AM   
slaveboyforyou


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quote:

[I have known a horse to trample someone, but it was a stallion, most of the horses I know are geldings and they bond with their riders, especially the kids. /quote]

I don't care what you've "known" horses to do; they do in fact react to humans like any other herd animal.  They do and will trample, kick, and occasionally kill people.  I'm not deriding them as a species; I like horses.  But they are no different from other herd animals.  Again, you are not answering the argument.

quote:

And yes, pigs are very intelligent but intelligence isn't the be-all and end-all in a relationship, love and caring and a special bond is more important to me. I don't know of cows that bond with humans the way horses do.   


You don't know of cows bonding with humans, because you've never done it.   You haven't seen anyone do it.  I have a good friend that worked with dairy cows, and they are very intelligent.  In fact, they may surpass horses (yeah, I said it).  I'm sorry if that hurts your ego.  Horses are not the smartest animals.  I'll say it again, they have been used for food by MANY cultures that solely relied on horses for their livelihood.  Horses are no more special than oxen. 

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RE: Mysterious horse deaths - 4/22/2009 5:52:20 AM   
CatdeMedici


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quote:

You don't know of cows bonding with humans, because you've never done it.   You haven't seen anyone do it.  I have a good friend that worked with dairy cows, and they are very intelligent.  In fact, they may surpass horses (yeah, I said it).  I'm sorry if that hurts your ego.  Horses are not the smartest animals.  I'll say it again, they have been used for food by MANY cultures that solely relied on horses for their livelihood.  Horses are no more special than oxen. 


I've had dairy cows and meat cows and no sorry they do not surpass horses when it comes to intelligence-nope, sorry, they learn by routine, repetition--take that away and they don't function too well.
 
quote:

I'll say it again, they have been used for food by MANY cultures that solely relied on horses for their livelihood. 


So have humans and we will again when times get tough.
You don't think much of horses, no problem. You rode one, no big whoop, however, that horse was trained to know that the inexperienced human on its back was not a danger and should not be thrown in to the nearest tree out of fear.
 
Should humans only behave so intelligently with all the learning we have.
 
 

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RE: Mysterious horse deaths - 4/22/2009 5:53:24 AM   
slaveboyforyou


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quote:

So a few facts for discussion sake---yeah camels can be used to get around, but we don't have any here in the US in herds---now in the scale of animal intelligence, one has to define based on characteristics---a horse is smarter of those three on the flight scale as it can detect a predator--a pig and cow cannot.


No, you are not providing facts.  Horses are not indigenous to the Western Hemisphere.  When early man stepped foot here, equines had been extinct for hundreds of thousands of years.  The largest herd animal was the Bison.  Sorry, but that's the facts.  You can deny the superiority of intelligence in pigs over horses all you want.  You're simply wrong; it's proven.  Cows are about equal to horses in intelligence.  You don't recognize it, because you don't see cows the same, spend as much time with cows, etc. 

quote:

Oxen pull carts, yes, but they are cattle not pigs and only that breed actually is a work animal and  even they can't recognize a predator.


You've apparently never been around a herd of cows.  Go watch a herd of bison, water buffalo, etc.  They do recognize predators, and they act accordingly.  Go to a damn rodeo.  Why do you think bulls are aggressive?  City raised folks really amaze me sometimes.  You don't know what you're talking about. 

quote:

 
The smartest animal next to man is the dolphin, for its ability to recognize itself in the mirror, detect and attack a predator,  capture its food, fool its food into being captured and its apparent enjoyment of sex. 
 


That's debatable.  Chimpanzees and Bonobos are man's closest relative.  Dolphins are indeed intelligent, but it's debatable if they second man in the world's smartest species. 

quote:

Yeah people who have horses are pretty emotional about them. As for food, you'd be better off eating dog, it would help reduce the poplulation, eradicate the need for euthanasia and the orientals have been eating them for years. Its the other white meat, haven't you heard?


No, dogs are carnivores.  Carnivores are not good animals to eat.  It's not a real good idea to eat pigs, but dogs are even worse.  Horses are herbivores.  Man has ate them since man started eating meat.  Entire culture depended on horses for food, transportation, clothing, shelter, etc.  The Huns, the Mongols, several North American indigenous tribes after the horse's re-introduction to North America by Europeans, and even modern Westerners in several countries.  You know, Americans even ate horse regularly a century ago.  Horses are no more invalid as a food source than cows. 



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RE: Mysterious horse deaths - 4/22/2009 8:03:12 AM   
Irishknight


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quote:

ORIGINAL: slaveboyforyou

Irish you can disagree all you want.  It's a fact that pigs are more intelligent than horses.  Pigs and humans are very much alike.  As I posted earlier, we are both omnivorous, opportunistic scavengers by nature. 

As I said earlier, I am not excusing this if it was indeed a deliberate act.  I just find it odd that we attach so much more humanity to horses than we do other grazing, herd animals.  I find it odd that we actually pass laws forbidding horses to be used as meat animals. 


Since when is it a fact?  I have raised both.  I have taken care of both.  I have probably eaten both since the price of hamburgers at Mcdonalds went up immediately after the horse slaughterhouses in the US were closed.   I have seen the proof on a daily basis.  My findings and those of farmers who deal with them on a regular basis differ from those of labcoated intellectuals who study them for a short time.  Pigs are not stupid animals but niether are they the animal equivelents of Einstein.  They are also far more likely to harm a human than a horse. 

I have seen farmers turn pale in fear when a child fell into a hog pen because they know that the child's life is in danger.  Those same farmers will tell the same child "Leave that horse alone and get out of that corral" when the child crosses into the horse's territory.  The horse in my profile pics has actually protected me on two occassions.  I would never entrust my life to a pig unless it was by turning it into bacon or sausage.  Of course, I have threatened to put that horse in the freezer on more than one occassion when he was being difficult.  He would almost laugh and then straighten up and do right.  No pig acts that human.

As I said earlier, the stressor on how pissed it makes me is the MY in front of whatever animal it is. 

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RE: Mysterious horse deaths - 4/22/2009 8:14:29 AM   
Irishknight


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Status: offline 		If cows are so much smarter than horses or even equal, why will a cow turn into the winter wind and freeze to death and a horse turn away from it to stay alive?  I have known ranchers to lose entire herds of the more intelligent cows in snowstorms because they stood there and died.  The stupider horses came into the barn on their own and so were there for the ranchers to ride to attempt to save the smarter cows.
Again, I've lived with these animals.  I understand the attachment.

Oh, on a sort of related note, both pigs and miniature horses are being used as guide animals for the blind now.  The reports I have read rate the pigs roughly equivalent of the dogs that they replaced.  The mini horses have recieved ratings of superior for a number of reason.  One of the primary reasons is that a dog or a pig will run right down a set of stairs which can cause a problem at times.  A mini will only use stairs if there is no other way to go.  The horses are also found to be far more protective of their humans than dogs and pigs.  If I ever go blind, I will definately want a seeing eye horse.

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RE: Mysterious horse deaths - 4/22/2009 8:22:49 AM   
beargonewild


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quote:

ORIGINAL: slaveboyforyou

No, you are not providing facts.  Horses are not indigenous to the Western Hemisphere.  When early man stepped foot here, equines had been extinct for hundreds of thousands of years.  The largest herd animal was the Bison.  Sorry, but that's the facts.  You can deny the superiority of intelligence in pigs over horses all you want.  You're simply wrong; it's proven.  Cows are about equal to horses in intelligence.  You don't recognize it, because you don't see cows the same, spend as much time with cows, etc. 



Sorry but the first known ancestor of the modern day horse appeared during the Paleocene epoch which was about 55 million years ago. At that time, the land masses were not in the same spot as they are now.

Earth looked much different in the Paleocene. India and Africa were islands, and North America was connected to Europe, which was more like an archipelago of islands than the continental body it is today. South America and Australia were connected to Antarctica, forming one giant landmass known as Gondwana. Although temperatures fluctuated throughout the epoch, they were generally cooler than at the end of the Mesozoic and in the Eocene. It is believed that this cooling was due in part to dust and debris that was thrown into the atmosphere by the meteorite collision. Nevertheless, Earth's climate during the Paleocene was significantly warmer than it is today, and subtropical conditions existed around the world.

http://anthropology.si.edu/humanorigins/faq/gt/cenozoic/paleocene.htm

http://chem.tufts.edu/science/evolution/HorseEvolution.htm


< Message edited by beargonewild -- 4/22/2009 8:23:22 AM >

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RE: Mysterious horse deaths - 4/22/2009 8:48:04 AM   
GreedyTop


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RE: Mysterious horse deaths - 4/23/2009 5:01:24 AM   
slaveboyforyou


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quote:

Sorry but the first known ancestor of the modern day horse appeared during the Paleocene epoch which was about 55 million years ago. At that time, the land masses were not in the same spot as they are now.


Your statement is true, but it doesn't change anything I said.  Horses did not exist in the Western Hemisphere when humans migrated here.  Plain and simple....so I am sorry.  You made no valid argument to refute my point. 

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RE: Mysterious horse deaths - 4/23/2009 5:32:03 AM   
kittinSol


Posts: 16926
Status: offline 		I was given a slice of roast meat when I was little and thought it tasted 'different'. The dinner host told me it was a horse roast: after that, I just couldn't eat. It just tasted bloody. Bleurgh - besides, I was a fan of 'Black Beauty' in those days  . In France though, there are quite a lot of 'Boucheries Chevalines' still. They have a plastic horse's head as a sign outside. Here is a very typical example: note the butcher's aggressive attitude towards the photographer http://www.pbase.com/globalgadabout/image/83019401 . Horse meat makes people hyper: that's how Attila and his Huns caused so much rampage. (JOKING) 

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RE: Mysterious horse deaths - 4/23/2009 5:38:07 AM   
angelikaJ


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quote:

ORIGINAL: slaveboyforyou

quote:

So a few facts for discussion sake---yeah camels can be used to get around, but we don't have any here in the US in herds---now in the scale of animal intelligence, one has to define based on characteristics---a horse is smarter of those three on the flight scale as it can detect a predator--a pig and cow cannot.


No, you are not providing facts.  Horses are not indigenous to the Western Hemisphere.  When early man stepped foot here, equines had been extinct for hundreds of thousands of years.  The largest herd animal was the Bison.  Sorry, but that's the facts.  You can deny the superiority of intelligence in pigs over horses all you want.  You're simply wrong; it's proven.  Cows are about equal to horses in intelligence.  You don't recognize it, because you don't see cows the same, spend as much time with cows, etc. 




I am not sure what your point was here.
We weren't indigenous either.

Domestication of the modern horse seems to have occurred 5,000-5,500 yrs ago in the area near contemporary Kazakhstan according to a recent article in the journal Science.
(And yes they were raised as a food source, providing both meat and milk in addition to being bridled.)

You are using the argument of intelligence as a measure of worth in choosing an animal to be worthy of devotion.

The octopus is very intelligent relative to the size of it's brain. I wouldn't want one as a companion.

Some people are dog lovers, some people are cat afficionados.
Some people share a special bond with their birds.
Some people are horse people...and some people don't get horses at all.
Some people are impressed with the intelligence of pigs.

No one's preference/opinion is right or wrong.

I honestly am not certain what you felt compelled to prove here.

The post was about the deaths of over 20 creatures in a short amount of time.
The deaths were believed to be intentional, caused by a toxin of some kind.
In the video I saw the animals clearly suffered, and it was distressing to the owners, riders, and the veterinary staff trying to treat them.


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RE: Mysterious horse deaths - 4/23/2009 6:03:18 AM   
Lucylastic


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Status: offline 		Ive never seen polo piggies?
You cant tip horses(well not as easily as cows)
The most intelligent animals in the world are the ones who want nothing to do with mankind..
Lucy
who yes, feels the intentional deaths of the horses is very sad, but then I cant watch animal patrol without wanting to hurt the neglectful owner.





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RE: Mysterious horse deaths - 4/23/2009 11:29:29 AM   
Irishknight


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Status: offline 		Oh ...a pig or cow never carried a wounded soldier miles to safety.  Pigs ate the bodies after battles on many occassions while cows did neither.  Horses traditionally carried soldiers into and out of battle.  That leaves a mark on the societies they served for centuries to come.  The romantic dreams of knights and cowboys would fall bythe wayside ifthe horse was dropped to equal status with the pig or cow.
Maybe that last part is the actual answer to your question Slaveboy.

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RE: Mysterious horse deaths - 4/23/2009 11:49:38 AM   
kittinSol


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Status: offline 		And so we can safely conclude that pigs are the most like us, and that eating pork is pretty much akin to cannibalism.

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RE: Mysterious horse deaths - 4/23/2009 11:50:33 AM   
RCdc


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesFIP
And yes, pigs are very intelligent but intelligence isn't the be-all and end-all in a relationship, love and caring and a special bond is more important to me. I don't know of cows that bond with humans the way horses do.


Pigs do.

quote:

a horse is smarter of those three on the flight scale as it can detect a predator--a pig and cow cannot.

 
Pigs do and can.  I have seen that first hand,  I have also seen a pig go on the defense of it's human companions.  It was very scarey too!

quote:

Well, pigs aren't thorobreds, they don't win million dollar races.


Pigs are.  And they might not win million dollar races, but they still run and win races.
 
Although all this discussion is pretty pointless really.  Animals suffered, doesn't get much more straight forward than that.  Regardless of their species it still sucks.
 
the.dark.



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RE: Mysterious horse deaths - 4/23/2009 11:54:54 AM   
LaTigresse


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Status: offline 		Big bad evil domme REFUSES to watch that damned animal cops show!

As for smart, I've lived around cattle, sheep (talk about stupid), pigs, horses, dogs, cats, fish, and a parrot or two. By far the most intelligent was the parrot. A few of the dogs probably a close second.

My grandfather milked so there were some cows that had been around for years and years. Sweet, but not the brightest bulbs in the pack by far. I've been around horses since before I can remember. Different horses means vastly different intelligence levels to be honest. I remember one, THEE most STUPID horse I've ever met in my life. So stupid it was dangerous. I would have gladly shot it myself. Unfortunately it wasn't mine. The owner ended up taking it to the sale barn where it was sold for kill. While we humans do not eat horse in this country many are sold for slaughter.

I have one horse much like someone else described, perfect babysitter. He is the one in my profile photos. I have another, too smart for his own good. Constantly opening gates, playing dunk the chicken, pulling the tank heater out of the water tank. Anything to entertain himself.

I adore horses, have spent my life in a love affair with them. I wish there were far fewer of them in this country, less to go to slaughter. Unfortunately it is a necessary evil because, like dogs and cats, too many. Not enough geldings, too many mares and stallions.

I've been around some damned smart pigs too. Yet I don't trust them. Just a different type of animal with a different brain and behaviour.

I don't think debating intelligence is all that worthwhile. After all, I've met quite a few human beings I consider worthless, that would score higher in an intelligence test than most dogs. Yet I find most dogs of more value than some human beings.

Different animals will not only have different intellligence levels but other attributes that are more difficult to measure. Try training a dog and a horse the same way. It generally will not work. Two entirely different brains and behaviour patterns. Cannot comparably measure a value in two things that are so very different at a core level.

To assume that people that have been eating cattle and hogs for centuries, will see them in the same light as an animal we have placed an entirely different value on, such as a dog or horse, is assinine. Sure you can argue it till you are blue in the face but it is still rediculous at best. May as well advocate cannibalism and argue the similarities. Mammal, red meat, whatever.

The value system for our acceptance is far more complex than physical traits, brain ability, etc. Anyone that cannot get that, is rather low on the human intelligence scale.

< Message edited by LaTigresse -- 4/23/2009 11:57:33 AM >

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RE: Mysterious horse deaths - 4/23/2009 2:35:19 PM   
Vendaval


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In the evolutionary timeline, there were equines in the Americas prior to the arrival of the Europeans.

"All the Equidae in North America ultimately became extinct approximately 11,000 years ago. The causes of this extinction (simultaneous with the extinctions of a variety of other American megafauna) have been a matter of debate. Given the suddenness of the event and the fact that these mammals had been flourishing for millions of years previously, something quite unusual must have happened. Possible reasons include climate change, a pandemic, or over-hunting by humans (the extinctions were roughly simultaneous with the end of the most recent glacial advance and the appearance of the big-game-hunting Clovis culture).[24]
 
Horse fossils disappear from the fossil record from about 10,000 years ago, but begin occurring frequently again in archaeological sites in Kazakhstan and the southern Ukraine from 6,000 years ago.[22] From then on, it is probable that domesticated horses as well as the knowledge of capturing, taming, and rearing wild horses spread relatively quickly, with wild mares from several wild populations being incorporated en route.[23]"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolution_of_the_horse


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RE: Mysterious horse deaths-- updated - 4/23/2009 3:44:26 PM   
angelikaJ


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Status: offline 		Mistake at a compounding pharmacy likely responsible for deaths.


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RE: Mysterious horse deaths-- updated - 4/23/2009 5:24:21 PM   
Crush


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Status: offline 		That is one serious mistake for a pharmacy.   And a damn shame about the horses.

I won't be taking any horse pills from now on, that's for sure.


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RE: Mysterious horse deaths - 4/23/2009 5:28:51 PM   
Louve00


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Status: offline 		Agreed, DarkandtheDark.  That animals suffered is the real point here.  And angelikaJ's link above makes it even more pathetic.  In this case, instead of responsibly buying the approved supplement, tried to save money? make the horse recover faster?  Who knows the goal, but the experiment killed the very animal they were trying to improve...or maintain.

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