RE: Another win for the 2nd Amendment

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slvemike4u -> RE: Another win for the 2nd Amendment (4/23/2009 10:04:36 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: painpup all I Know is went through the process I also went to school for my permit that allows me to Carry ....it wasn't a overnite deal as some have said about scoring from the streets Yes that can be Done I like the fact if I need to Use said protetion its there and Mike have You been a victim of this type of violance You speak so soundly on or lost someone over gun violance [/quotewould be] The answer to both parts of your question would be yes.Now let me ask you a question does the fact that my opinion is colored by personal experience make that opinion more or less valid. Perhaps quick quips ala servant's last post more welcome?

servantforuse -> RE: Another win for the 2nd Amendment (4/23/2009 10:19:58 AM)
As a Phone man in Milwaukee my truck was broken into 4 times, I've been harrassed by gangs, shot at, had a knife pulled on me and was robbed once at gunpoint. A friend on my crew was murdered in his truck because a dealer thought he was an undercover cop. I retired before I ended up six feet under...

slvemike4u -> RE: Another win for the 2nd Amendment (4/23/2009 10:23:24 AM)
So this would explain your desire for gang bangers to take hunting safety classes?I would think the subject might actually carry more weight as a result of such experiences.

servantforuse -> RE: Another win for the 2nd Amendment (4/23/2009 10:30:30 AM)
I'm sure you know it was a little tongue in cheek. I do know that you can pass 20 new laws for those of us who abide by them. If someone is willing to shoot someone for no reason they are certainly not paying attention to any other law. They are a total waste of time. They couldn't care less.

slvemike4u -> RE: Another win for the 2nd Amendment (4/23/2009 11:00:56 AM)
And that disregards completely the fact that every gun manufactured in the U.S. starts out legal......and than thru a sometimes torturous journey winds up in the hands of a gang banger or some other whack job.The claim that if they weren't made here they would still be as readily accessible is such utter nonsense as to boggle the mind.Smuggling foreign made guns into the U.S. would be the most ridiculous exercise in criminal stupidity.materials readily available domestically sort of makes there importation superfluous.

LordRikker -> RE: Another win for the 2nd Amendment (4/23/2009 11:37:06 AM)
The fact that history has proven adnauseum that people will always find a way to procure weapons , whether they be for self defense or criminal activity, there will always be someone with a gun, knife, club, rock, whatever. My gun has saved mine and my families lives and property an at least 5 occassions. This is not exageration. People breaking into my house at night with 4 kids and 3 women in the house! I personally WILL a have a gun. Our society is breaking down. I will protect my own and God help the person who trys to take away my ability to do so. The second amendment was written by men who had been under a government where the populace was denied weapons and was therefore represive. An armed society is a polite society. History proves the gun control people are wrong every time. Study history and you will (if you are intelligent ), discover that everytime a government or society has disarmed the populace within 20 years it has become a dictatorship. Benjamin Franklin re-iterated this when he said, "A people who are willing to surrender their liberties for safety soon find they have neither" Because of fear and a lack of willingness to take the responsability neccessary from ALL citizens, we live in a society that no longer teaches discipline and therefore our kids are growing up without a sense of self-discipline. This leads to a society out of control. If you can't see that crawl back under your rock and one of these days someone will step on you and put you out of our misery. Myself I will let my family live in the sun and happy and safe. I have scars on my body from defending my families rights and I don't mean in wartime, though I was there. Read Study before you try to inflict your opinions on my rights. Rikker

slvemike4u -> RE: Another win for the 2nd Amendment (4/23/2009 12:01:42 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LordRikker The fact that history has proven adnauseum that people will always find a way to procure weapons , whether they be for self defense or criminal activity, there will always be someone with a gun, knife, club, rock, whatever. My gun has saved mine and my families lives and property an at least 5 occassions. This is not exageration. People breaking into my house at night with 4 kids and 3 women in the house! I personally WILL a have a gun. Our society is breaking down. I will protect my own and God help the person who trys to take away my ability to do so. The second amendment was written by men who had been under a government where the populace was denied weapons and was therefore represive. An armed society is a polite society. History proves the gun control people are wrong every time. Study history and you will (if you are intelligent ), discover that everytime a government or society has disarmed the populace within 20 years it has become a dictatorship. Benjamin Franklin re-iterated this when he said, "A people who are willing to surrender their liberties for safety soon find they have neither" Because of fear and a lack of willingness to take the responsability neccessary from ALL citizens, we live in a society that no longer teaches discipline and therefore our kids are growing up without a sense of self-discipline. This leads to a society out of control. If you can't see that crawl back under your rock and one of these days someone will step on you and put you out of our misery. Myself I will let my family live in the sun and happy and safe. I have scars on my body from defending my families rights and I don't mean in wartime, though I was there. Read Study before you try to inflict your opinions on my rights. Rikker First off that Franklin quote is completely mangled.Second the colonies were not disarmed prior to the Revolution.Thirdly recent history proves beyond a shadow of a doubt than an armed society is NOT a polite society...as a matter of fact,in our case it is quite opposite. 32 dead in less than a month from mass muderers using firearms would put the lie to your beleifs.Perhaps before you inflict your erroneous viewponts on the rest of us...you might do a little reading yourself..... P.S The Franklin quote you were shooting for is thus...."They who give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety ".

CreativeDominant -> RE: Another win for the 2nd Amendment (4/23/2009 12:04:28 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Marc2b quote: Who said anything about scrapping...tweaking it a bit to reflect a new reality....now that works for me. And if I decide that the First Amendment needs to be tweaked a little because I don't like what some people are saying? Rights are not about society. They are about individuals. And every individual, under the second amendment, was given the right to keep and bear arms. That doesn't mean they were given the right to just shoot someone. Nor does it mean you have to own a gun. That's your choice as an individual, just as it is MY choice to own a gun and keep it handy.

CreativeDominant -> RE: Another win for the 2nd Amendment (4/23/2009 12:13:01 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: slvemike4u A Charlton Heston quote,it doesn't get any better than that......thanks Term you have staked out your position beautifully.I beleive Chuck did the same thing.....right after Columbine.Smooth guy that Chuck was.... Coming from the state where Columbine took place, let me note this... The two killers that committed the heinous acts at Columbine were spoilt brats whose poor lil egos were bruised by kids who wanted nothing to do with them. Never mind that this is the way of the world all over and never mind that by age 16 or 17, they should have been taught that. What's really ironic is that in this day and age of schools that spend soooooo much time teaching kids the "right way to all get along", it doesn't seem to be taking hold with some, does it? What they did was wrong in terms of the law...they had illegally-modified weapons, they wounded and killed people, and they committed suicide (an indication of their own cowardice...their bravery only lasted through the killing of others, not the trials and consequences for the actions they decided to take). That doesn't take away from the right of an individual to own and bear arms. This idea that we have to protect all of society from a few idiots by stomping on individual rights and freedoms is B. S.. Several of the amendments speak to the right to free speech (not inflammatory) and the right to petition the government to redress grievances. Protests against governmental policies make use of these amendments...where would the left be without those amendments?

Marc2b -> RE: Another win for the 2nd Amendment (4/23/2009 12:13:28 PM)
quote: And every individual, under the second amendment, was given the right to keep and bear arms. That doesn't mean they were given the right to just shoot someone. Nor does it mean you have to own a gun. That's your choice as an individual, just as it is MY choice to own a gun and keep it handy. I pretty sure I haven't been advocating for the right to shoot people (not counting legitamate self defense, of course). Nor have I been advocating people having to own a gun. People are as free to not use their rights as use them.

CreativeDominant -> RE: Another win for the 2nd Amendment (4/23/2009 12:16:56 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Marc2b quote: And every individual, under the second amendment, was given the right to keep and bear arms. That doesn't mean they were given the right to just shoot someone. Nor does it mean you have to own a gun. That's your choice as an individual, just as it is MY choice to own a gun and keep it handy. I pretty sure I haven't been advocating for the right to shoot people (not counting legitamate self defense, of course). Nor have I been advocating people having to own a gun. People are as free to not use their rights as use them. Actually Marc, my remarks were more directed at slavemike than at you. If you read my posts, you'll see that I agree with you.

slvemike4u -> RE: Another win for the 2nd Amendment (4/23/2009 12:23:51 PM)
Where does the theory that I would choose to gut the 2nd come from.I defy anyone to find one post where I advocated the seizure of privately held weapons....What I have advocated is a common sense view of the 2nd...background checks ,waiting periods for those checks to be conducted...restrictions on types of weapons available to private citizens....restrictions on certain types of ammunition .All reasonable IMO and all allowing honest law abiding citizens an opportunity to arm themselves if they so wish.

philosophy -> RE: Another win for the 2nd Amendment (4/23/2009 12:32:37 PM)
...well, a lot of car crime is committed by people on the road illegally. So therefore we ought not to require driving tests? At least that's the logic i think you're proposing. Most gun crime (not all, but most) is committed by people with illegal firearms. True enough. However requiring people to have achieved a relatively low level of gun knowledge before letting them own and operate them would cut down on a lot of gun accidents.

Crush -> RE: Another win for the 2nd Amendment (4/23/2009 1:26:54 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: rulemylife quote: ORIGINAL: Crush quote: ORIGINAL: rulemylife quote: ORIGINAL: Crush And there are laws against using guns to rob or kill or other way misuse the firearm.... Haven't been working too well lately though, huh? Actually, they have been working very well. I don't see people not paying a price for misusing them. Did you happen to see we had 52 people killed in mass shooting sprees in one month alone? That's just in mass killings, not including other gun violence. Yes, believe it or not, I do keep up with the news. So what's your point? A) I can show where many more than that have been kept from harm in that same time period. B) These killings, other than the Alabama shootings, were in places that guns were not permitted or by individuals that had psychotic breaks. C) What about the guy who was cutting off the heads of people in his family? D) I could claim it has only happened since Obama took office, so it is his fault. But I won't go there. So.. D') There are ALWAYS "bad guys" out there. Does that mean good guys shouldn't be able to defend themselves? I guess so, if you are at a school or in a government building. E) Gun control isn't about guns, it is about control. F) Gun control isn't about crime control: http://abcnews.go.com/2020/story?id=3083618&page=1 G) People kill one another with many things besides guns (see C above) H) Guns don't kill people by themselves. They need an operator. I) Those incidents in the past month, while horrific, are the acts of very few individuals. Given that there are around 52,000,000 homes with guns, what happened is barely a blip. Less than the percentage of the budget "cuts" of $100,000,000 proposed by President Obama versus the budget. J) Over 200,000 women use a gun to defend themselves against sexual abuse every year. K) Over 1,500,000 times a year a gun is used in self defense. The stats go on and on. Guns are GOOD things for individuals. It can be a force equalizer for those that aren't able to be black belts in karate. SOMETIMES an individual will go crazy. Some will choose guns. It makes the news because it is so abnormal to what we expect and the "if it bleeds it leads" mentality of our news organizations. Yes, each tragedy is a tragedy, especially for those involved. The average of over 370 kidnappings in Phoenix is a tragedy for each family involved. Can we make guns obsolete? Sure, I know an easy way ... Invent a personal force shield that keeps bullets from affecting you. Make them available for free. But since we don't have those, we need a good offense as our defense. And a gun is a simple mechanism for that.

SteelofUtah -> RE: Another win for the 2nd Amendment (4/23/2009 1:27:14 PM)
No we are talking about Guns Not Cars, if you want to talk about Cars go ahead it isn't in the Constitution but Guns are and they are Protected under it. Stop using analogys that don't work. Arms are Protected under the constitution We are talking about Constitutional Rights just because something else is a problem two does not make it a constitutional issue. Steel

rulemylife -> RE: Another win for the 2nd Amendment (4/23/2009 1:36:10 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: servantforuse I'm sure you know it was a little tongue in cheek. I do know that you can pass 20 new laws for those of us who abide by them. If someone is willing to shoot someone for no reason they are certainly not paying attention to any other law. They are a total waste of time. They couldn't care less. So, why have have any laws then, if only the law-abiding will pay attention to them? We can stop having our tax dollars pay for police, courts, and jails because it is all a waste of time anyway.

Crush -> RE: Another win for the 2nd Amendment (4/23/2009 1:40:46 PM)
I agree Steel. Driving is a "privilege" granted by the State and can be controlled. Though I can just imagine the following scenario: "We have decided that too many people drive drunk. Therefore, we will no longer allow individuals to own cars. They'll have to take public transport, with a licensed government driver. You must turn in your car by Jan 1, 2010 for it to be crushed. All commercial traffic will have to arrange to get their goods delivered via a government transporter." THAT would be legal, if political folly. Your "driving privilege" is a privilege.

slvemike4u -> RE: Another win for the 2nd Amendment (4/23/2009 1:44:54 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Crush Yes, believe it or not, I do keep up with the news. So what's your point? A) I can show where many more than that have been kept from harm in that same time period. B) These killings, other than the Alabama shootings, were in places that guns were not permitted or by individuals that had psychotic breaks. C) What about the guy who was cutting off the heads of people in his family? D) I could claim it has only happened since Obama took office, so it is his fault. But I won't go there. So.. D') There are ALWAYS "bad guys" out there. Does that mean good guys shouldn't be able to defend themselves? I guess so, if you are at a school or in a government building. E) Gun control isn't about guns, it is about control. F) Gun control isn't about crime control: http://abcnews.go.com/2020/story?id=3083618&page=1 G) People kill one another with many things besides guns (see C above) H) Guns don't kill people by themselves. They need an operator. I) Those incidents in the past month, while horrific, are the acts of very few individuals. Given that there are around 52,000,000 homes with guns, what happened is barely a blip. Less than the percentage of the budget "cuts" of $100,000,000 proposed by President Obama versus the budget. J) Over 200,000 women use a gun to defend themselves against sexual abuse every year. K) Over 1,500,000 times a year a gun is used in self defense. The stats go on and on. Guns are GOOD things for individuals. It can be a force equalizer for those that aren't able to be black belts in karate. SOMETIMES an individual will go crazy. Some will choose guns. It makes the news because it is so abnormal to what we expect and the "if it bleeds it leads" mentality of our news organizations. Yes, each tragedy is a tragedy, especially for those involved. The average of over 370 kidnappings in Phoenix is a tragedy for each family involved. Can we make guns obsolete? Sure, I know an easy way ... Invent a personal force shield that keeps bullets from affecting you. Make them available for free. But since we don't have those, we need a good offense as our defense. And a gun is a simple mechanism for that. Okay I'm willing to takt the "blame Obama " part as a joke...which I surely hope it was ,but..... Please do show where many more have been kept from harm ...presumably,for the statement to have any relevence by the posession of a legal firearm. The guy cutting off heads...if he had chosen a more effective tool ie: a firearm,could very well have gone up and down the block wiping out other families if he was so inclined...What this proves I have no idea...no one has claimed murders would stop absent guns...just that the numbers of victims just might not be so high. Do you really advocate guns around our school children as a means of keeping them safe from guns.....odd belief to say the least.As for gov't offices,this sounds like a capitol idea.....allow guns where sometimes highly contentious issues are in the balance...yep sheer genius this is. Yep gun control is about control....controling the numbers of victims seems like a good idea on it's face...perhaps you don't agree? Gun control isn't about crime control? since I don't understand the point your going for I will skip this one. People kill with other weapons...yep so lets make it as easy as possible to kill with the most effective weapon....wouldn't want a bunch of botched murder attempts to muddy up the waters. The operator needs a good gun to get really spectacular results though.... It wasn't a "blip" to the families of the victims... How many woman are actually sexually abused at gunpoint...or since this particular statistic doesn't help your argument we won't bother using it to balance out the statistic you did choose to use Ditto the above...How many times are people the victim of gun violence...far more than get saved by a gun I would guess... A good offence for our defence what a catchy little tag line .None of these arguments can resist being shaken,stirred and turned on their ears.....They are indeed catchy...but full of holes.

Crush -> RE: Another win for the 2nd Amendment (4/23/2009 2:16:29 PM)
quote: kay I'm willing to takt the "blame Obama " part as a joke...which I surely hope it was ,but..... yes it was...though we do know of one incident when the nutjob was triggered by "Obama taking away his guns." As I've always held, people are responsible for their actions. quote: Please do show where many more have been kept from harm ...presumably,for the statement to have any relevence by the posession of a legal firearm. Mike, I've put the studies up before...studies from various Law Schools across the nation. From the FBI. From police departments. From state departments. Go here for a "Metapage" that links to those studies: http://www.usa2076.com/proguns/gunclock.htm here: http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/gvc.htm#Violence http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/ucr.htm http://www.usa2076.com/proguns/numbers.htm And yes, it is a pro gun site...but it links to sites such as the FBI, NorthWestern School of Law, FSU Law school, etc, where people have to be impartial to retain credibility. quote: The guy cutting off heads...if he had chosen a more effective tool ie: a firearm,could very well have gone up and down the block wiping out other families if he was so inclined...What this proves I have no idea...no one has claimed murders would stop absent guns...just that the numbers of victims just might not be so high. He could have built a bomb. He could have stolen a truck. The numbers aren't "high" relative to other causes of death. They just are more sensational because of the "gun" aspect. Look at Mexico where people aren't allowed to have guns. Violence there is rampant. And the "gun control" in Mexico doesn't keep select fire (fully auto) weapons, grenades, RPGs, etc., from being available to the drug cartels. And no, most of those guns do NOT come from the US. Try to buy an RPG in the US. Or a "machine gun" Only a few of all the guns seized in Mexico are traced back to the US, contrary to what Holder has said. (see http://whatreallyhappened.com/ar/blogs/samlowrey/09/02/28/holders-appeal-gun-control-mexicos-sake) for one take. (And another PING on the NYT for bias and failure to report http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/04/world/americas/04mexico.html?_r=2 ) quote: Do you really advocate guns around our school children as a means of keeping them safe from guns.....odd belief to say the least.As for gov't offices,this sounds like a capitol idea.....allow guns where sometimes highly contentious issues are in the balance...yep sheer genius this is. A) Actually, for years guns were around our kids at schools. It wasn't until 1990 that schools became "gun free zones." The problems have only worsened since then B) If a person can't argue without resorting to violence, then the person is the problem. Not the firearm. Is there something about "shall not be infringed" that doesn't make sense? quote: Yep gun control is about control....controling the numbers of victims seems like a good idea on it's face...perhaps you don't agree? I think you miss the point...you control the number of victims by making sure that someone might be able to stop the perpetrator before he gets too far. quote: Gun control isn't about crime control? since I don't understand the point your going for I will skip this one. Gun control isn't about crime control. Let me point you to a ABC story titled so: http://abcnews.go.com/2020/story?id=3083618&page=1 Maybe it will be clearer after you get a chance to read it. quote: People kill with other weapons...yep so lets make it as easy as possible to kill with the most effective weapon....wouldn't want a bunch of botched murder attempts to muddy up the waters. The operator needs a good gun to get really spectacular results though.... The most effective weapon isn't a gun. You actually have to aim it in the general direction. Bullets go in straight lines (well, arcs, with gravity and wind) but down a very narrow path. A bomb is much more effective and easy to manufacture. quote: It wasn't a "blip" to the families of the victims... No, neither is losing someone to cancer... quote: How many woman are actually sexually abused at gunpoint...or since this particular statistic doesn't help your argument we won't bother using it to balance out the statistic you did choose to use Ditto the above...How many times are people the victim of gun violence...far more than get saved by a gun I would guess... Mike, I've responded with my sources and yet, all you've done is "feelings" without any science or statistics. Your turn. Look at the sites I've pointed to above. You will see the answers there to your questions. Especially the FBI's stats in the UCR. quote: A good offence for our defence what a catchy little tag line .None of these arguments can resist being shaken,stirred and turned on their ears.....They are indeed catchy...but full of holes. Nice try. But invalid once more. Awaiting your actual facts and stats from valid sources instead of your "feelings" and opinions. Then we can debate sources and their impartiality. But until then, ya got nothin...

rulemylife -> RE: Another win for the 2nd Amendment (4/23/2009 2:22:36 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Crush Yes, believe it or not, I do keep up with the news. So what's your point? A) I can show where many more than that have been kept from harm in that same time period. Ok, show me. quote: B) These killings, other than the Alabama shootings, were in places that guns were not permitted or by individuals that had psychotic breaks. Places where guns are not permitted? Are you talking about the city, the state? Because I don't anywhere that guns are banned. If you are talking about specific prohibitions on particular places where guns cannot be carried you need to take another look at the murder sites. quote: C) What about the guy who was cutting off the heads of people in his family? And you honestly think the nutcase in Binghampton would have been able to kill 14 people with just a knife before he was overpowered? quote: D) I could claim it has only happened since Obama took office, so it is his fault. But I won't go there. So.. D') There are ALWAYS "bad guys" out there. Does that mean good guys shouldn't be able to defend themselves? I guess so, if you are at a school or in a government building. Yes, that's obviously the solution, more guns. Let's arm everyone, I'm sure things will much safer then. [8\|] quote: E) Gun control isn't about guns, it is about control. Yeah, that's kind of how I feel about having to get a driver's lincense, car registration, and insurance. But do ya' think those might just be beneficial? quote: F) Gun control isn't about crime control: http://abcnews.go.com/2020/story?id=3083618&page=1 Of course not, how silly is it for someone to believe that stricter gun controls would actually mean fewer guns in the hands of people who shouldn't have them. What a ridiculous concept. quote: G) People kill one another with many things besides guns (see C above) No???? Really??? then let's back up to my previous question. Do you think the killer in Binghamton would have been able to kill 14 people running around the place trying to bash them on the head with a brick? quote: H) Guns don't kill people by themselves. They need an operator. Yes, guns don't kill people, people kill people. Wow, that's pretty clever. I just made that up by the way. No, wait. Maybe I have heard that somewhere before,........................ but where? By the way, heroin doesn't kill people by itself. It needs someone to inject it into their veins. But then again that's not contained in a severely misinterpreted section of a 200+ year old document that apparently has become the equivalent of the Bible for some. quote: I) Those incidents in the past month, while horrific, are the acts of very few individuals. Given that there are around 52,000,000 homes with guns, what happened is barely a blip. Less than the percentage of the budget "cuts" of $100,000,000 proposed by President Obama versus the budget. Well, that's reassuring, but the analogy is just too ridiculous to waste my time responding to. quote: J) Over 200,000 women use a gun to defend themselves against sexual abuse every year. Don't throw statistics at me unless you back it up with documentation. quote: K) Over 1,500,000 times a year a gun is used in self defense. See my answer to J). quote: The stats go on and on. It seems some other things go on and on too.

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