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RE: Where BDSM can be a trap - 4/27/2009 1:21:18 PM   
QuixoticErrant


Posts: 260
Joined: 2/1/2009
Status: offline 		You and I could not agree more.

It is my biggest hope that she sees this and learns to speak up. I strongly believe that once she does, she will find that he will not be able to see it. I also strongly believe that she knows this and is trying to dodge it. In the long run, that can only cause real suffering. I very much think it would be best for her to have it out now before it gets worse.

As to your discussion about nouns and adjectives, again, we could not agree more. That is a very eloquent way of discussing a trap of misperception that they have both fallen into.

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RE: Where BDSM can be a trap - 4/27/2009 1:44:40 PM   
allthatjaz


Posts: 2878
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quote:

ORIGINAL: wisdomofgiving

I want to speak outside of the 'BDSM can be a trap' mentality for a few minutes. Reading your post, I would say your friend has some decisions to make. These are not any different then being in a vanilla or what name you use for other relationships. When two people want to make a long term committed relationship, and come from very different core beliefs there will be difficulties. If one can't even find honor in the other's beliefs and will not permit it, then they are demanding a cut from that person's core being. Can it work? Perhaps, but there will be bitterness brewing in the long run. A feeling of being foresaken by their husband,wife/dominant, master. This has nothing to do with BDSM or being a Master or a Dominant in the first place. This has it's core in my beliefs are the true way and yours are of the 'devil' way.




I agree with this. Your friend and her partner need to put the BDSM away in a drawer whilst they sort this out. Only then can they look at the complications and unreasonable compromise.
You can only respect someones right to have believe or religion and ultimately you must respect there right to religion of choice. You do not have to agree with them to respect them.
I can't imagine anything more offensive than someone not respecting my choice of religion.

Maria


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RE: Where BDSM can be a trap - 4/27/2009 1:57:20 PM   
tornaway


Posts: 174
Joined: 4/14/2007
Status: offline 		I don't see Bdsm as having anything to do with this issue . 
 
If you truly love someone , you also respect them - and what their life choices have been before you entered their lives .   I don't see this as love - if she must change a core part of herself to be "acceptable" to him , and/or his world  ( be it religion , weight , career choices etc. ) .
 
Good thing it's on the table now - BEFORE they get married .   Without compromise ,  it could blow the whole thing apart .   

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RE: Where BDSM can be a trap - 4/27/2009 2:35:07 PM   
SailingBum


Posts: 3225
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From: Sailin the stormy sea
Status: offline 		I dont get it!  Ppl agree to disagree all the time whether its about religion or whos washing dishes tonight.  It doesn't have a thing to do with The EVIL BDSM vs Vanilla.  Surely the OP is not naive enuff to think religion can't truely be a deal killer.  Back in the 40's oh about 6 million catholics were killed and a few jews.

The point being lots of strong views on all sides of religion.  Yer allowed on the boat as long as you keep your views on the dock.

BadOne


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RE: Where BDSM can be a trap - 4/27/2009 2:36:05 PM   
littlewonder


Posts: 15659
Status: offline 		I don't understand why they didn't discuss this before they ever agreed to be a couple.

I mean for me religion is a huge issue and something I discuss before I ever get involved with someone. If our religions and beliefs differ wildly there's no chance in hell I will be having a relationship with them.

I can only assume this is another case of two people who rushed into things because their lust got in the way of their values.

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RE: Where BDSM can be a trap - 4/27/2009 2:55:15 PM   
QuixoticErrant


Posts: 260
Joined: 2/1/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: SailingBum

I dont get it!  Ppl agree to disagree all the time whether its about religion or whos washing dishes tonight.  It doesn't have a thing to do with The EVIL BDSM vs Vanilla.  Surely the OP is not naive enuff to think religion can't truely be a deal killer.  Back in the 40's oh about 6 million catholics were killed and a few jews.

The point being lots of strong views on all sides of religion.  Yer allowed on the boat as long as you keep your views on the dock.

BadOne



I'll assume that you were miss typing your history and that you know better. You might want to edit it. Nowhere did I say anything about EVIL BDSM. You might want to read the post again and think about what is actually being said.

Of course this can be a deal breaker - I have no idea how you think that anyone could not see how that is.

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RE: Where BDSM can be a trap - 4/27/2009 3:00:10 PM   
QuixoticErrant


Posts: 260
Joined: 2/1/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: littlewonder

I don't understand why they didn't discuss this before they ever agreed to be a couple.

I mean for me religion is a huge issue and something I discuss before I ever get involved with someone. If our religions and beliefs differ wildly there's no chance in hell I will be having a relationship with them.

I can only assume this is another case of two people who rushed into things because their lust got in the way of their values.



I don't think that they should be judged harshly for being attracted. People do this all the time, it is all too human an error. I think that it takes time and maturity to overcome the notion that love conquers all. It can beat lots of things if it is real. However, real love means loving the other for who they are, not who we want them to be. That is the flaw and the trap when people say "love conquers all" it only works if there is that sort of love in the first place. Most people I know fell into that trap at least once in their lives.

I think that he can be judged harshly for not seeing her for who she is clearly and wanting to change her.

< Message edited by QuixoticErrant -- 4/27/2009 3:03:33 PM >

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RE: Where BDSM can be a trap - 4/27/2009 3:06:52 PM   
littlewonder


Posts: 15659
Status: offline
quote:

I think that he can be judged harshly for not seeing her for who she is clearly and wanting to change her.


Nope he can't. For her to change she has to stay and agree to it. Since she's obviously not speaking up she must be getting something out of it. Love does not conquer all.



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RE: Where BDSM can be a trap - 4/27/2009 3:22:50 PM   
DomImus


Posts: 2004
Joined: 3/17/2009
Status: offline 		How the hell do you get to the point of discussing marriage with this kind of conflict of faiths? The topic just never came up? That's the part that freaks me out.

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RE: Where BDSM can be a trap - 4/27/2009 3:45:00 PM   
CallaFirestormBW


Posts: 3651
Joined: 6/29/2008
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quote:

This is one case where the submissive *must* be able to come forward and speak her mind. This is one case where the Dominant *must* be able to hear it. Some boundaries, if pushed, can only lead to heartbreak.


... and -this-, in a single sentence, is why I do not combine authority-transfer relationships and romantic relationships. If I am in an authority-transfer relationship with someone and we become romantically involved, one or the other or both must end, because I consider it an ethical nightmare to retain authority over someone one is romantically involved with. Romantic relationships require that both parties have the capacity to make conscious, well-considered decisions about their future, and authority-transfer restricts that capacity. For me, the result is ethically reprehensible.

Calla Firestorm

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RE: Where BDSM can be a trap - 4/27/2009 4:07:57 PM   
NihilusZero


Posts: 4036
Joined: 9/10/2008
From: Nashville, TN
Status: offline 		It sounds like two people who decided not to engage in a discussion about an issue that's awfully close to a hard limit before developing into the 'past-the-point-of-no-return' area of emotional investment.

That's where the error started, and it has nothing to do with BDSM.

Now, your friend is feeling conflicted between choosing her submission or her faith...a choice she's apparently not adequately prepared for and one which it seems her Dom has presumed is a malleable issue.

One or both of them need to get to the point of admitting to themselves and the other that: "As far as this dynamic in our relationship is concerned, we should part ways...and it's a decision we should have made long before this impasse came about."

< Message edited by NihilusZero -- 4/27/2009 4:09:47 PM >

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RE: Where BDSM can be a trap - 4/27/2009 4:09:11 PM   
Padriag


Posts: 2633
Joined: 3/30/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: GreedyTop

why cant they just agree to each have their own spiritual beliefs, expose any potential children to them both, and let the kids decide?

Because not everyone can do that, particularly with deeply held beliefs.

Sometimes people need to face that they just aren't a good fit for each other.  This sounds like one of those cases.  Both of them need to take some responsibility for letting things go this far without having confronted this issue sooner.  I doubt either's beliefs were a secret.  If this woman find's this man's beliefs so repulsive and likewise he about hers... why did they ever decide to get involved? 

Things like this are why I don't get involved with people who have radical politics, extreme religious views, or anyone who can't accept me just as I am.  It just isn't smart.

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RE: Where BDSM can be a trap - 4/27/2009 4:32:26 PM   
marie2


Posts: 1690
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From: Jersey
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: NihilusZero

It sounds like two people who decided not to engage in a discussion about an issue that's awfully close to a hard limit before developing into the 'past-the-point-of-no-return' area of emotional investment.

That's where the error started, and it has nothing to do with BDSM.

Now, your friend is feeling conflicted between choosing her submission or her faith...a choice she's apparently not adequately prepared for and one which it seems her Dom has presumed is a malleable issue.

One or both of them need to get to the point of admitting to themselves and the other that: "As far as this dynamic in our relationship is concerned, we should part ways...and it's a decision we should have made long before this impasse came about."


100 pts

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RE: Where BDSM can be a trap - 4/27/2009 4:41:51 PM   
lusciouslips19


Posts: 9792
Joined: 9/8/2007
Status: offline 		I am sorry if the Op doesnt really know anything about BDSM if they are blaming these problems on it. These problems would exist between the couple even if vanilla. I have seen countless times where someone of my faith-jewish and an observant jew is involved with someone ofa differetn faith. The only way it will work is if the other converts to their religion. Many are willing to convert. But if they are not then there is an impasse. I also grew up with a girl who was very extremely orthodox. Her father was not jewish. Her mother became more religious and raised her kids this way. The father became a virtual outsider in his own home. Now I am not saying thst this happens with all. Most people arent that religious anyway. But when they are, the impasse is great and it cant not be overcome when both feels so strongly about their faith and future family upbringing.

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RE: Where BDSM can be a trap - 4/27/2009 4:54:56 PM   
LovingMistress45


Posts: 271
Joined: 2/7/2009
Status: offline 		I like some others wonder how this got so far without this issue coming up. I think it is wrong for him to try to impose his beliefs on her by having her convert to a faith she does not believe in when she has strong beliefs in a different faith.  However, I feel it is just as wrong for her to have become involved so deeply with someone whose faith makes her "ill" if she thinks about participating in it and gives her "chills" to think of her children being raised in this faith.  This sounds to me like 2 people who do not value the core essence of the other. They may love each other, but if they can not see the value in each others faith and value it because it is the essence (core) of the one they love there is not much chance this can be worked out. 

This is truly a difficult situation and I feel for both parties involved, but as the say goes "sometimes love just ain't enough"  Seems at the very least right now they need to take a break and do some soul searching each on their own and see if there is any compromise that might be possible that does not involve one of them having to give up their faith.  There are of course many inner-faith marriages, but they all involved some form of compromise.  Many choose to expose the children to both religions and let them choose when they are old enough, but it sounds as if the beliefs of these 2 may not allow for this.

Best of luck to your friend.

(in reply to QuixoticErrant)
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RE: Where BDSM can be a trap - 4/27/2009 4:59:53 PM   
QuixoticErrant


Posts: 260
Joined: 2/1/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: lusciouslips19

I am sorry if the Op doesnt really know anything about BDSM if they are blaming these problems on it. These problems would exist between the couple even if vanilla. I have seen countless times where someone of my faith-jewish and an observant jew is involved with someone ofa differetn faith. The only way it will work is if the other converts to their religion. Many are willing to convert. But if they are not then there is an impasse. I also grew up with a girl who was very extremely orthodox. Her father was not jewish. Her mother became more religious and raised her kids this way. The father became a virtual outsider in his own home. Now I am not saying thst this happens with all. Most people arent that religious anyway. But when they are, the impasse is great and it cant not be overcome when both feels so strongly about their faith and future family upbringing.


OK I said it about 15 times I will say it again. BDSM did not cause the problem. BDSM is not to blame. However, it is possible for the BDSM dynamic to exacerbate the issue. Others have posted here who said that they too fell into it. Others clearly got what was being said even if they did not fall into it.

Some here are so touchy that they are not reading what was said. I am not bashing on BDSM. I like BDSM. I am on this site for crying out loud. I am saying that not everyone manages to keep proper boundaries between BDSM and what I would consider the nuts and bolts of relationship issues. This is a true statement. We all know people who have done this. Why are some people here being so willfully blind to what has actually been said.

For people in this lifestyle to have such remarkably thin skins that they can not even admit something obvious that sometimes happens, that I am certain that they have seen in one context or another is astonishing.

I don't think alcohol is evil. I don't deny that not everyone uses it healthily either.

< Message edited by QuixoticErrant -- 4/27/2009 5:00:36 PM >

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RE: Where BDSM can be a trap - 4/27/2009 5:03:37 PM   
QuixoticErrant


Posts: 260
Joined: 2/1/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LovingMistress45

I like some others wonder how this got so far without this issue coming up. I think it is wrong for him to try to impose his beliefs on her by having her convert to a faith she does not believe in when she has strong beliefs in a different faith.  However, I feel it is just as wrong for her to have become involved so deeply with someone whose faith makes her "ill" if she thinks about participating in it and gives her "chills" to think of her children being raised in this faith.  This sounds to me like 2 people who do not value the core essence of the other. They may love each other, but if they can not see the value in each others faith and value it because it is the essence (core) of the one they love there is not much chance this can be worked out. 

This is truly a difficult situation and I feel for both parties involved, but as the say goes "sometimes love just ain't enough"  Seems at the very least right now they need to take a break and do some soul searching each on their own and see if there is any compromise that might be possible that does not involve one of them having to give up their faith.  There are of course many inner-faith marriages, but they all involved some form of compromise.  Many choose to expose the children to both religions and let them choose when they are old enough, but it sounds as if the beliefs of these 2 may not allow for this.

Best of luck to your friend.


You are correct in all that you say. I think the issue is that they were very very happy in the moment and that they never really thought about the long term untill they were committed. Like I said to several others who remarked similarly to you, this is an all too human mistake. I know I have done it before myself and so have many others. For now, it just sucks for both of them.

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RE: Where BDSM can be a trap - 4/27/2009 5:14:15 PM   
QuixoticErrant


Posts: 260
Joined: 2/1/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: NihilusZero

It sounds like two people who decided not to engage in a discussion about an issue that's awfully close to a hard limit before developing into the 'past-the-point-of-no-return' area of emotional investment.

That's where the error started, and it has nothing to do with BDSM.

Now, your friend is feeling conflicted between choosing her submission or her faith...a choice she's apparently not adequately prepared for and one which it seems her Dom has presumed is a malleable issue.

One or both of them need to get to the point of admitting to themselves and the other that: "As far as this dynamic in our relationship is concerned, we should part ways...and it's a decision we should have made long before this impasse came about."


That's about right on all counts. She needs to speak up now.

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RE: Where BDSM can be a trap - 4/27/2009 5:35:18 PM   
kiwisub12


Posts: 4742
Joined: 1/11/2006
Status: offline 		People "blame" bdsm" all the time for bad personal decisions   -  and the couple in the OP have run up against this problem.
Staying in a bad relationship  - ie one that causes internal disharmony - because the partcipant "needs" the bdsm in their life and then wondering why they aren't happy is fairly common.  Unfortunately, not everyone is as clear thinking about their own "stuff" as some replying on this thread, and go with their gut, until their gut gets them in trouble.

In my neck of the woods, i have seen people with doms or subs they don't respect just so they won't be alone, or they are willing to settle with a semi-approximation of a happy relationship to have the bdsm component.

The best thing this couple could do would be to go into therapy or mediation, so they have an unbiased referee for the discussion.  However, it sounds to me that the sub knows what she needs to do, she just doesn't want to do it - she would rather waffle around and hope vainly for a way out.   A lot of wishful thinking on her part - and apparently, on his as well.

I feel sorry for all involved.


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RE: Where BDSM can be a trap - 4/27/2009 6:15:09 PM   
DesFIP


Posts: 25191
Joined: 11/25/2007
From: Apple County NY
Status: offline 		I consider them both to be at fault for not facing this issue beforehand, for getting involved without any discussion. I don't understand how all this time he has been fine with her going to her religious services while considering her godless, and how she's been fine with him going to his while at the same time the mere thought of it gave her chills.

In many ways I would consider this a wake up call that they aren't ready to get married simply because they refused to face reality beforehand.

Since there isn't any solution here, and both feel this strongly while both blithely ignored the realities of the situation until now, it would behoove them both to separate and think about what they need in a partner for the future.

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(in reply to QuixoticErrant)
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