Submission = loss of identity? (Full Version)

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Miyani -> Submission = loss of identity? (4/29/2009 11:41:41 AM)

Being a stubborn ass, it's difficult for me to admit that there's a problem in my relationship that I don't know how to solve, but right now, I'm left with no other choice. I'm wondering if some of you more experienced s-types wouldn't mind helping me out. Thanks in advance. :)

I'm perfectly happy to add backstory as necessary, but for now, I'll just pose a question. In a culture where people are very much expected to be strong and self-reliant, with a solid sense of personal identity, did any of you feel as though there was danger of losing yourself, or your identity, when submitting? Do you feel that having "So-and-so's sub/slave" as part of your identity lessens you, in a way that having "so-and-so's lover" doesn't?

For myself, I think that it is not only possible, but necessary, for a submissive to maintain their identity and their sense of self, in order to be in a healthy and workable D/s relationship. But I'm trying to help with the struggle of someone who seems to think that in order to submit, he must give up his self, and I'm running out of reassurances. If this idea is something you've struggled with as well, I'd love any insight into your own situation, or advice you have to give.

Edit: I'm realizing, due in part to the.dark's insight, that I misphrased. When I say it is necessary for an s-type to maintain a strong sense of identity, I do not mean to say that their identity cannot change, cannot be molded, cannot even be completely disregarded in favor of a new one. But I feel there must be a sense, in their minds, that they are being true to themselves, whatever form their self happens to take or grow into over time.



subtlebutterfly -> RE: Submission = loss of identity? (4/29/2009 11:48:03 AM)

It depends on how you view yourself as a submissive.



RCdc -> RE: Submission = loss of identity? (4/29/2009 11:49:28 AM)

Some people do not like the identity they have.  Sometimes, submission is a form of release where they can be themselves and find their 'true' identity.  Losing identity does not mean that they are not strong.
 
I don't believe that you can tell someone that loss of identity is not a way to become whole, without discovering why they need to lose it in the first place.  It isn't as easy, or as black and white, as people would like to think - or advise.
 
the.dark.



AngelGeena -> RE: Submission = loss of identity? (4/29/2009 11:52:00 AM)

I don't see myself as losing my identity.  Rather having it a bit reshaped and more confidence in who I am.



Phoenixpower -> RE: Submission = loss of identity? (4/29/2009 11:54:24 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Miyani

did any of you feel as though there was danger of losing yourself, or your identity, when submitting? Do you feel that having "So-and-so's sub/slave" as part of your identity lessens you, in a way that having "so-and-so's lover" doesn't?

For myself, I think that it is not only possible, but necessary, for a submissive to maintain their identity and their sense of self, in order to be in a healthy and workable D/s relationship. But I'm trying to help with the struggle of someone who seems to think that in order to submit, he must give up his self, and I'm running out of reassurances. If this idea is something you've struggled with as well, I'd love any insight into your own situation, or advice you have to give.


In my view I am not loosing or giving up my identity with submitting but admitting my identity instead...since I am living abroad now since almost 5 years I am much more in charge then I ever wanted and ever aimed for...whilst I am strong, that does not exclude happily to serve one partner in life for his desires as being part of me...I would only loose my identity if I would pretend to be sub/slave when it is not my  cup of tea at all...



Miyani -> RE: Submission = loss of identity? (4/29/2009 12:02:23 PM)

~FR~

@ the.dark.: I'm not saying that using submission as a tool to cast off an old and unwanted sense of identity, in order to find a new one, is not strong. In fact, I think making conscious change in your identity, using whatever tools you have available, takes incredible strength. But he is afraid of losing his identity, he doesn't want to. However, he can't shake the belief that in order to submit, loss of identity is necessary, no matter how many times I tell him it doesn't have to be. I'm looking for advice as to how to combat that belief.

@AngelGeena and Phoenixpower: That tends to be closer to my viewpoint - that allowing the part of your identity that wants to submit free access is actually gaining a part of yourself, and allows you more confidence in who you are.



ncbabe -> RE: Submission = loss of identity? (4/29/2009 12:05:25 PM)

I struggled with this for the longest time until I found someone who was able to show me that my identity and my need to submit are not two separate things.  I cannot lose my identity through submitting because my need to submit is just one part of what makes me who I am.

I have actually grown stronger and more confident in myself from accepting my need and embracing it.  If anything I was more lost before.



ThoughtDom -> RE: Submission = loss of identity? (4/29/2009 12:08:18 PM)

The framing of the question makes it clear the submissive is afraid of change.

Their sense of self is wrapped up in what others perceive them to be and what they believe they should be doing.  Submission for them does not fit in their current world view.  Your submissive will have increased difficulty with this concept until they accept their submission as a core part of their self or they give up on their true desires and play the game society expects.

I recommend your submissive accept their "loss of self" (really: change of self) if they have come this far.  Acceptance will allow them to delve deeper into submission where their true self will be found.

What you are experiencing with your submissive is not uncommon, particularly among more intelligent and capable submissives.  It is more than just rhetoric to say that submission requires strength.

As additional advice I will add that a common roadblock for deep submission is the fear that it will lead to unhappiness without escape, since deep submission carries with it a near (or complete) inability to deny the dominant.  Because of this I recommend that you, as the dominant, take ownership of ending the relationship if it is not fulfilling for the submissive.  This allows the submissive to completely let go, knowing that if they are not happy, you will pull them out and help them find the happiness they seek.




SteelofUtah -> RE: Submission = loss of identity? (4/29/2009 12:26:16 PM)

First off I understand that I am not a submissive or a slave and so for that reason some may choose to write off what I am about to say.

For me I am a Dominant Person. I identify as Dominant because it is easier to do so rather then to explain my feelings of this to every person who asks "SO are you a Dom or a sub" I think we have gotten lost in the semantics of some of the words we use. Submissive and Dominant have become Nouns when they are more easily recognized as Adjectives.

I am ALWAYS Steel, But Steel is many things. (Forgive the 3rd person for a moment it is simply to project the point) Steel has a Dominant Personality, Steel is also at times rather affectionate and can be rather melloncholly. Steel is Dorky and a Geeky but not a Nerd. Steel is easily distracted. Steel is a Pleasant Guy. The thing is, is that some of my traits are not inherantly Dominant or Submissive and because of this I find that calling myself a Dominant as a Noun is just too narrow a definable playing field.

The problem as it would seem in the situation the OP explains is when someone believes that being a Submissive means no longer being true to themselves then the issue is with how they see the process not with the process itself.

So that I am perfectly understood andi does what she does for me because she wants to. When I request the harder of things for her to do she knows that by not doing it she will be subject to either my disappointment or with having to watch me do it myself because it is understood that I will do and will have what it is that I want, because I am not all willy nilly about the things I want. There is a Reason and a Purpose behind the things I ask of andi it is part of the respect I have for her as a person. The relationship dynamic we have is one of obedience and devotion. It comes with time and dedication to one another. I do not believe it is as simple as "I am a Submissive I do what I am told" If I wanted that I would have ordered the Singapore Mail order bride.

If you lose your Identity by your involvement in this lifestyle then I would claim that you are not actually being yourself and personally I don't want some manufactured idea of a person I want the real you to come out and over time mold ourselves into a machine that works specifically for us.

Hope that makes sence to anyone else but me.

Steel



sweetnurseBBW -> RE: Submission = loss of identity? (4/29/2009 12:33:46 PM)

I do not think of submission as losing my identity but rather adding to it. It is a part of me as anything else. I do not lose who I am by being submissive but bring out more of who I am by being submissive.



atypicalsub -> RE: Submission = loss of identity? (4/29/2009 12:58:37 PM)

first of all, as with everything else in bdsm (or any other type of relationship for that matter) you need to find someone who's views are compatible with your own.  some dominants feel the need to smash a slave into nothing just to use the materials to build what they themself want.  other domiants want a slave with personality and seek to encourage their indivigual character.  to me this is at least a big part of the difference between a submissive and a slave.

i came into D/s when i started to realize that this is who i am.  in my previous (vanilla) relationships i had always been forced to assume the dominant role even though i was never comfortable with it.  so being submissive is part of who i am, part of my identity.  i have been fortunate in being taken by a Mistress who builds on my natural submission by gently encouraging it.  She would not want to supress my indiviguality because of what else might be lost in the process.  She values my intellect, wit, and sense of humor.  She feels my independant spirit brightens her home and her life. 



CatdeMedici -> RE: Submission = loss of identity? (4/29/2009 1:06:35 PM)

I think there will be submissives who chose to do so because for whatever reason it makes them feel more submissive--just like wives who choose to lose their identity in their marriage--and there are those who won't---I do think it is something that needs to be discussed early on in the initial stages of a relationship.



OmegaG -> RE: Submission = loss of identity? (4/29/2009 1:55:30 PM)

I believe relationships no matter what the rules, dynamics and titles they come with, should enhance the individuals involved not diminish them.  Too many people are so sold on the idea that single= lonely and paired= happy that they bend and twist themselves to make the relationship itself their only reason for being.  The relationship should be compatibe, symbiotic and simpy a better quality of life then what one can achive alone.

I would caution against a person who wants to loose himself in a relationship, it would indicate to me that he doesn't have a strong grasp on who he is and what he really wants as an individual.  It could mean that he doesn't like himself and wants you to reinvent him.  The risk to all of this is when he does find himself he will realize that he isn't happy with the role that he has become.



tiinkerbell -> RE: Submission = loss of identity? (4/29/2009 2:30:12 PM)

All my life i have been referred to as 'somebody's something' lol. First it was my parents only girl, then it was my brothers sister then it was my boyfriends girl. I used to wonder growing up if people remembered what my name was [:)]
 
All in all though, just because I was always 'somebody's something', I never stopped being ME; and the being ME is what made people remember me.
 
Just be yourself and don't worry about what others see you as. If you are yourself, you will be remembered becasuse of yourself.



littlewonder -> RE: Submission = loss of identity? (4/29/2009 2:45:17 PM)

No but then I tend to choose a man who is similar to myself in his values and morals, likes, dislikes, etc..so really there's not a lot to change and those things he wants to change are usually the things I wish to change about myself as well.

Being in a relationship though means change is inevitable in some things if we value our partners. We both want to be different things for our partners but I don't see that as losing my identity but growing as a person within the foundations of a couple.




lally2 -> RE: Submission = loss of identity? (4/29/2009 3:38:17 PM)

i would say that it is in the sensitivity of a submissives Dominant that takes care of this fear.  by allowing their submissive to express themselves and be themselves but temper that with the control, respect and obedience that they require at certain times.  the dynamic can be there the whole time, but you can still chat and laugh and cuddle up whilst in that dynamic.  the security the slave will feel from this is that if they overstep their Dominant will gently put them back and the slave will happily go back.  secure in the control but also in the knowledge that their Dominant values all of who they are and enjoys all of who they are.

if a dominant is forever keeping a slave under mental and emotional bondage, never allowing them to be all that they are then maybe, but only maybe, you might have a situation where the slave feels they are dissappearing.  some people need that though.

just encourage him to be himself but keep the boundaries there.  that will give security of place and security in who he is.

but really this is a concern that comes up quite often.  he's not alone in feeling this and it takes time and experience to find out that it doesnt happen.  its as the other guys have said.  it gives freedom, happyness, fulfillment and huge peace, all the things he has been craving.  to let go completely takes time but when that time comes it feels wonderful.  just tell him to go with the flow, if he needs to pull back (which is completely normal) then let him find a comfort zone for a time.

as a friend said to me once 'softlee softlee catchee monkee' - above all have fun, its meant to be fun.



brownbutterflyy -> RE: Submission = loss of identity? (4/29/2009 3:38:43 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Miyani

Being a stubborn ass, it's difficult for me to admit that there's a problem in my relationship that I don't know how to solve, but right now, I'm left with no other choice. I'm wondering if some of you more experienced s-types wouldn't mind helping me out. Thanks in advance. :)

I'm perfectly happy to add backstory as necessary, but for now, I'll just pose a question. In a culture where people are very much expected to be strong and self-reliant, with a solid sense of personal identity, did any of you feel as though there was danger of losing yourself, or your identity, when submitting? Do you feel that having "So-and-so's sub/slave" as part of your identity lessens you, in a way that having "so-and-so's lover" doesn't?

For myself, I think that it is not only possible, but necessary, for a submissive to maintain their identity and their sense of self, in order to be in a healthy and workable D/s relationship. But I'm trying to help with the struggle of someone who seems to think that in order to submit, he must give up his self, and I'm running out of reassurances. If this idea is something you've struggled with as well, I'd love any insight into your own situation, or advice you have to give.

Edit: I'm realizing, due in part to the.dark's insight, that I misphrased. When I say it is necessary for an s-type to maintain a strong sense of identity, I do not mean to say that their identity cannot change, cannot be molded, cannot even be completely disregarded in favor of a new one. But I feel there must be a sense, in their minds, that they are being true to themselves, whatever form their self happens to take or grow into over time.



No it hasn't. If anything it has made me more of aware of who I am.



littleone35 -> RE: Submission = loss of identity? (4/29/2009 4:26:40 PM)

No i have always had a strong sense of self. Yes i am Masters girl but that is just a pert of the whole Idenity that makes me,me. If for some very strange reason i was not Masters girl, i woud still have ME.

Matt's littleone



MasterFireMaam -> RE: Submission = loss of identity? (4/29/2009 4:53:45 PM)

In my opinion, you have to be willing to give up self (ego-based persona) and who you think you are in order to be able to find you Self (higher self). This is true of any self-aware path...and becoming a slave can be, but isn't always, such a path. Being a Master might be as well. There are many.

Master Fire



kallisto -> RE: Submission = loss of identity? (4/29/2009 5:03:40 PM)

I am me.  Being "so and so's sub enhances who I am.  Being in a D/s relationship allows all of me to come forth.   I wouldn't be in the relationship if I couldn't be me.    Change and/or growth will happen as the relationship grows and matures, but my core identity won't.   I'm happy with me and my Dom would be too ... otherwise, there wouldn't be a D/s relationship to begin with.  [:)]



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