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RE: The death penalty - 5/8/2009 1:30:48 PM   
janiebelle


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quote:

ORIGINAL: CruelNUnsual

quote:

ORIGINAL: stella41b


quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or

But really what right would I have to choose. If I should be able to control the means of my own death, but did not afford that right to my victim, by what right would I assert it ?

T





However if you were a murderer I'm pretty sure that you wouldn't lock your victim away for ten to twenty years, procrastinating over whether to kill them or not, seek to kill them, then back off at the last minute, build up their hopes that they may survive, and then announce that you are going to kill them anyway but in a few months' time, which is basically the experience of most of who you find on Death Row.



Which they need not suffer through if they dont avail themselves of the asinine number and grounds for appeals that we allow. Some don't and get it over with quickly.


In many states those appeals are automatic, making even those willing to "get it over with quickly" waste away thru the process.
And stella, I'm with you...it's not the place of the state to be killing its citizens.  period.


(in reply to CruelNUnsual)
Profile   Post #: 181
RE: The death penalty - 5/8/2009 1:33:46 PM   
CruelNUnsual


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quote:

ORIGINAL: janiebelle

quote:

ORIGINAL: CruelNUnsual

quote:

ORIGINAL: stella41b


quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or

But really what right would I have to choose. If I should be able to control the means of my own death, but did not afford that right to my victim, by what right would I assert it ?

T





However if you were a murderer I'm pretty sure that you wouldn't lock your victim away for ten to twenty years, procrastinating over whether to kill them or not, seek to kill them, then back off at the last minute, build up their hopes that they may survive, and then announce that you are going to kill them anyway but in a few months' time, which is basically the experience of most of who you find on Death Row.



Which they need not suffer through if they dont avail themselves of the asinine number and grounds for appeals that we allow. Some don't and get it over with quickly.


In many states those appeals are automatic, making even those willing to "get it over with quickly" waste away thru the process.
And stella, I'm with you...it's not the place of the state to be killing its citizens.  period.




The state disagrees with you (in most cases), and since the people ARE the state, it is by definition the state's place.

(in reply to janiebelle)
Profile   Post #: 182
RE: The death penalty - 5/8/2009 1:50:46 PM   
janiebelle


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quote:

ORIGINAL: CruelNUnsual

The state disagrees with you (in most cases), and since the people ARE the state, it is by definition the state's place.


Following the definition that the people ARE the state, then the state is just as far out of its right.  The people have no right to be killing each other in vengeance either (defense of self or others, declaration of war, etc. excepted).
And of course the state disagrees with me- no one likes it when they're called on their hypocritical BS.
j

(in reply to CruelNUnsual)
Profile   Post #: 183
RE: The death penalty - 5/8/2009 4:15:19 PM   
CruelNUnsual


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quote:

ORIGINAL: janiebelle

quote:

ORIGINAL: CruelNUnsual

The state disagrees with you (in most cases), and since the people ARE the state, it is by definition the state's place.


Following the definition that the people ARE the state, then the state is just as far out of its right.  The people have no right to be killing each other in vengeance either (defense of self or others, declaration of war, etc. excepted).
And of course the state disagrees with me- no one likes it when they're called on their hypocritical BS.
j


The state is only hypocritical from your personal point of view.

You probably havent seen my prior posts, since I havent seen you until redently, but my point of view is that the state (or any given society) CANNOT be hypocritical because society is the only valid determiner of "right and wrong". There are no absolute rights, no universal moral code.

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Profile   Post #: 184
RE: The death penalty - 5/8/2009 4:51:34 PM   
kdsub


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quote:

ORIGINAL: CruelNUnsual

quote:

ORIGINAL: janiebelle

quote:

ORIGINAL: CruelNUnsual

The state disagrees with you (in most cases), and since the people ARE the state, it is by definition the state's place.


Following the definition that the people ARE the state, then the state is just as far out of its right.  The people have no right to be killing each other in vengeance either (defense of self or others, declaration of war, etc. excepted).
And of course the state disagrees with me- no one likes it when they're called on their hypocritical BS.
j


The state is only hypocritical from your personal point of view.

You probably havent seen my prior posts, since I havent seen you until redently, but my point of view is that the state (or any given society) CANNOT be hypocritical because society is the only valid determiner of "right and wrong". There are no absolute rights, no universal moral code.


I have to agree with your post... I tried to make the same point earlier. CP is up to the people as a whole… The whole is the moral majority.

As long as the majority still wants CP then it should be up to the majority to make it as fair and unerring as possible.

Butch


< Message edited by kdsub -- 5/8/2009 4:52:05 PM >

(in reply to CruelNUnsual)
Profile   Post #: 185
RE: The death penalty - 5/8/2009 5:22:04 PM   
stella41b


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quote:

ORIGINAL: CruelNUnsual

The state disagrees with you (in most cases), and since the people ARE the state, it is by definition the state's place.



What is this 'in most cases'?

Most opinion polls consistently show that a majority of Americans are opposed to the death penalty.

The death penalty is sought in roughly one per cent of all homicide trials in the United States.

The death penalty is systematically sought by state prosecutors only in six or seven counties in the entire United States. Harris County in Texas is where the death penalty is most popular among state prosecutors.

Executions are routinely scheduled only in a few states - Texas, Virginia, Oklahoma, Florida, Missouri. Only one state executes on average two prisoners a month - Texas.

In the 32 remaining states where the death penalty is still on the statutes and not suspended or under a moratorium over a third have carried out five or less executions since the reintroduction of the death penalty in 1976.

Whichever way you look at it, this is hardly 'in most cases'.


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(in reply to CruelNUnsual)
Profile   Post #: 186
RE: The death penalty - 5/8/2009 5:28:04 PM   
kdsub


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Status: offline 		Not true check out below.

http://www.clarkprosecutor.org/html/death/opinion.htm

(in reply to stella41b)
Profile   Post #: 187
RE: The death penalty - 5/8/2009 6:16:32 PM   
stella41b


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

Not true check out below.

http://www.clarkprosecutor.org/html/death/opinion.htm


Point taken however the death penalty is still not applied 'in most cases'.

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(in reply to kdsub)
Profile   Post #: 188
RE: The death penalty - 5/8/2009 6:31:59 PM   
thishereboi


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quote:

ORIGINAL: stella41b


quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

Not true check out below.

http://www.clarkprosecutor.org/html/death/opinion.htm


Point taken however the death penalty is still not applied 'in most cases'.


See there are good things about Michigan http://www.cuadp.org/michhist.pdf

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(in reply to stella41b)
Profile   Post #: 189
RE: The death penalty - 5/8/2009 7:23:20 PM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline 		What... are you saying Michigan is more civilized then the UK!!!! no can't be


Sorry could not help myself

Butch

(in reply to thishereboi)
Profile   Post #: 190
RE: The death penalty - 5/8/2009 7:25:49 PM   
thishereboi


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

What... are you saying Michigan is more civilized then the UK!!!! no can't be


Sorry could not help myself

Butch


After living in the Detroit area for most of my life, I jump at any opportunity to make our state look good. Doesn't come often, but every once in a while it happens.

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(in reply to kdsub)
Profile   Post #: 191
RE: The death penalty - 5/8/2009 7:28:02 PM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline 		I may be mistaken but i think you will find that the majority of citizens in the UK support the death penalty

Butch

(in reply to kdsub)
Profile   Post #: 192
RE: The death penalty - 5/8/2009 7:31:04 PM   
thishereboi


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

I may be mistaken but i think you will find that the majority of citizens in the UK support the death penalty

Butch


I have never given much thought to whether they did or not, but now that you say that, I am surprised they do. Now I am really going to show my ignorance and ask if they still have the death penalty.

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(in reply to kdsub)
Profile   Post #: 193
RE: The death penalty - 5/8/2009 8:05:07 PM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline 		I only happened to see one poll... in that poll they said 56 percent in the UK believed in CP.. .So I am not sure how valid it was. Even at that it seems the younger folks are against, and middle aged to older were for it. It is that way in the US as well... It seems people change their minds as they get older.

I think the UK abolished cp in 1968 or 73.


Butch


< Message edited by kdsub -- 5/8/2009 8:18:29 PM >

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Profile   Post #: 194
RE: The death penalty - 5/8/2009 8:07:50 PM   
CruelNUnsual


Posts: 624
Joined: 9/28/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: stella41b


quote:

ORIGINAL: CruelNUnsual

The state disagrees with you (in most cases), and since the people ARE the state, it is by definition the state's place.



What is this 'in most cases'?

Most opinion polls consistently show that a majority of Americans are opposed to the death penalty.

The death penalty is sought in roughly one per cent of all homicide trials in the United States.

The death penalty is systematically sought by state prosecutors only in six or seven counties in the entire United States. Harris County in Texas is where the death penalty is most popular among state prosecutors.

Executions are routinely scheduled only in a few states - Texas, Virginia, Oklahoma, Florida, Missouri. Only one state executes on average two prisoners a month - Texas.

In the 32 remaining states where the death penalty is still on the statutes and not suspended or under a moratorium over a third have carried out five or less executions since the reintroduction of the death penalty in 1976.

Whichever way you look at it, this is hardly 'in most cases'.



you answered your own question...32 states is most states. the number carried out is irrelevant..the law is on the books and hasnt been chanted. If the system isnt administering the law and the people dont want a change in the law then it isnt society condemning CP its the prosecuters "legislating from the court room"...a common tactic of liberals, as you know.

Edit: apologies, I see my poor choice of words led to confusion. I was using "cases" in a more general sense of the circumstances where the death penalty is permitted, not "cases" meaning each individual case of murder etc.

< Message edited by CruelNUnsual -- 5/8/2009 8:41:53 PM >

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RE: The death penalty - 5/8/2009 8:32:26 PM   
Kirata


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Joined: 2/11/2006
From: USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: CruelNUnsual

my point of view is that the state (or any given society) CANNOT be hypocritical because society is the only valid determiner of "right and wrong". There are no absolute rights, no universal moral code.

I think you may be on less than solid ground with that one. Current scientific thinking is that human beings, and even animals, have an innate sense of justice and fairness. For some background, here is an overview dating back to our state of knowledge in 2003. This is a later article from 2006 in the Wall Street Journal Science Journal. One example of a study of the sense of fairness in human behavior, also from 2006, is here. And finally, from 2008, this report on how our sense of fairness is wired in the brain.

K.



(in reply to CruelNUnsual)
Profile   Post #: 196
RE: The death penalty - 5/8/2009 8:39:59 PM   
CruelNUnsual


Posts: 624
Joined: 9/28/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: CruelNUnsual

my point of view is that the state (or any given society) CANNOT be hypocritical because society is the only valid determiner of "right and wrong". There are no absolute rights, no universal moral code.

I think you may be on less than solid ground with that one. Current scientific thinking is that human beings, and even animals, have an innate sense of justice and fairness. For some background, here is an overview dating back to our state of knowledge in 2003. This is a later article from 2006 in the Wall Street Journal Science Journal. One example of a study of the sense of fairness in human behavior, also from 2006, is here. And finally, from 2008, this report on how our sense of fairness is wired in the brain.

K.


Apples and oranges. The "empathy gene", which is what I assume the studies you are referring to are about, only explains a general tendency toward societal solutions, and is vastly weaker than the survival instinct. Moral codes and ethics are pragmatic applications of societal solutions that are consistent with the survival instinct.  Ie the goal may be the same, but the means of achieving it (the specific code of ethics) vary greatly from culture to culture.

(in reply to Kirata)
Profile   Post #: 197
RE: The death penalty - 5/8/2009 8:53:19 PM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: CruelNUnsual

Apples and oranges. The "empathy gene", which is what I assume the studies you are referring to are about...

Your motto appears to be, "I assume, therefore I am right." Damn this place is fun sometimes. Nice talking to you.

K.




< Message edited by Kirata -- 5/8/2009 8:58:31 PM >

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Profile   Post #: 198
RE: The death penalty - 5/8/2009 9:59:13 PM   
ThatDamnedPanda


Posts: 6060
Joined: 1/26/2009
Status: offline 		Guess that settles that, eh? 

Anyway... Goddamn, Kirata, you really do post some damned interesting links from time to time. I assume I'm going to enjoy them, so I'm bookmarking them all to read at length later.


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(in reply to Kirata)
Profile   Post #: 199
RE: The death penalty - 5/8/2009 10:00:41 PM   
CruelNUnsual


Posts: 624
Joined: 9/28/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: CruelNUnsual

Apples and oranges. The "empathy gene", which is what I assume the studies you are referring to are about...

Your motto appears to be, "I assume, therefore I am right." Damn this place is fun sometimes. Nice talking to you.

K.





I havent "assumed" anything, other than what the links were about. I have read quite a bit about the empathy gene and know exactly what the findings are, and have discussed it numerous times. Believe it or not this isnt the only politics/religion forum in the world.

If they arent about the empathy gene then maybe Ill kill some time reading the links.

Your motto appears to be "If someone doesnt agree with me, I'll end the discussion instead of supporting my own point." 

< Message edited by CruelNUnsual -- 5/8/2009 10:03:03 PM >

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Profile   Post #: 200
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