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RE: The death penalty - 5/7/2009 12:39:06 AM   
calamitysandra


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quote:

ORIGINAL: gman992

First of all, when your daughter or son is murdered, you'll be for the death penalty.
...


Nope. If one of my children would be murdered, I would be for a slow and horrible death of the perpetrator at my hands.
That is because I would be emotionally invested.

Justice and law is something different.

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Profile   Post #: 161
RE: The death penalty - 5/7/2009 1:12:45 AM   
CruelNUnsual


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: CruelNUnsual

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

No. I will never be for the death penalty. Revenge is pointless.

As to your claims that bias doesn't enter into capital prosecutions tell that to the men released from Pennsylvania death row when it was proven that the prosecutor involved had illegally excluded black jurors. Or maybe you could explain why Rolando Cruz and Alejandro Hernandez were twice sentenced to death when their white co defendant was allowed to walk free after the first jury deadlocked, same trial, same evidence but two death sentences for the hispanics and a deadlocked jury for the white guy.


Anecdotes dont refute statistically significant differences in death penalty rates. Nice try though. And sorry Bob, Hurricane was a great song, but Ruben Carter was guilty as hell.

I didn't attempt to refute any stats, although if you really want to I can easily enough show what is wrong with those stats, but presented data points that prove that racial bias did affect at least those prosecutions in Philadelphia and Illinois. He claimed the death penalty was not racially motivated which is a sweeping claim not supported by his presented evidence and disproven by any data showing that there was racial bias in any capital prosecutions.


Counter examples dont disprove the overall fact that whites receive the death penalty disproportionately more than blacks. That doesnt mean they dont deserve it more often than blacks, but it does refute racial bias in sentencing. A few hundred female body builders doesnt disprove the fact the women are generally physically weaker than men.

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Profile   Post #: 162
RE: The death penalty - 5/7/2009 1:21:21 AM   
UglyTruth


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quote:

ORIGINAL: calamitysandra


quote:

ORIGINAL: gman992

First of all, when your daughter or son is murdered, you'll be for the death penalty.
...


Nope. If one of my children would be murdered, I would be for a slow and horrible death of the perpetrator at my hands.


That sounds like a death penalty to me.

quote:


...
Justice and law is something different.


This is absolutely true.

(in reply to calamitysandra)
Profile   Post #: 163
RE: The death penalty - 5/7/2009 7:06:30 AM   
calamitysandra


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quote:

ORIGINAL: UglyTruth

quote:

ORIGINAL: calamitysandra


quote:

ORIGINAL: gman992

First of all, when your daughter or son is murdered, you'll be for the death penalty.
...


Nope. If one of my children would be murdered, I would be for a slow and horrible death of the perpetrator at my hands.


That sounds like a death penalty to me.


Nope. Not death penalty, but revenge.

And this is why I want the trial in the hands of the law, and not the relatives or friends of the victim.

If I would get my hands on the murderer and kill him, I might very well not regret it, but it would be wrong nonetheless, and I should be tried and convicted according to the law.

As I see it, taking human life is wrong, regardless if it is done for lust, boredom, gain, revenge, or in the name of justice by the state.




< Message edited by calamitysandra -- 5/7/2009 7:12:28 AM >

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Profile   Post #: 164
RE: The death penalty - 5/7/2009 7:13:44 AM   
DomKen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: CruelNUnsual
Counter examples dont disprove the overall fact that whites receive the death penalty disproportionately more than blacks. That doesnt mean they dont deserve it more often than blacks, but it does refute racial bias in sentencing. A few hundred female body builders doesnt disprove the fact the women are generally physically weaker than men.

Once more the guy claimed racial bias was not involved in who were on death row. Not that bias was uncommon or statistically a minor compnent but that it wasn't there. Therefore any data showing it was there is sufficient to disprove his claim.

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Profile   Post #: 165
RE: The death penalty - 5/7/2009 8:25:10 AM   
CruelNUnsual


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: CruelNUnsual
Counter examples dont disprove the overall fact that whites receive the death penalty disproportionately more than blacks. That doesnt mean they dont deserve it more often than blacks, but it does refute racial bias in sentencing. A few hundred female body builders doesnt disprove the fact the women are generally physically weaker than men.

Once more the guy claimed racial bias was not involved in who were on death row. Not that bias was uncommon or statistically a minor compnent but that it wasn't there. Therefore any data showing it was there is sufficient to disprove his claim.


LMAO. Way to move the goalposts impossibly high. If you read his claim to be that bias is absolutely non-existent then you're a very creative reader. And if that IS his claim then he doesnt understand that virtually anything that is possible happens, particularly when your talking about human behavior. 

So yes, it exists...against all racial groups INCLUDING whites...and it is impossible to eliminate as long as humans are in charge of administering the law. Is it prevalent? If it is then it is a bias against whites.

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Profile   Post #: 166
RE: The death penalty - 5/7/2009 9:01:08 AM   
Termyn8or


Posts: 18681
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Status: offline 		There may be a disparity in Black to White execution ratios, which would run counter to the fact that the majority of incarcerated people are Black.

Having hung around with Black people and even having some discussions with them in jail, I have found that their legal knowledge is limited. Even though otherwise intelligent many have no idea what eactly their rights are when a defendant. When accused it is very good to know these things so one can assist in one's defense. The fact that many of them do not know these things probably is a major cause for their higher conviction rates, whether guilty or not. Fair ? No. Reality ? I am fairly sure from personal experience. Appicable to everyone ? No. But in general that is what I have found. They get arrested and they just figure they are going to jail, it's just a matter of how long. My ilk does not percieve lawyers as being more creative or intelligent than others, and many of us prepare ourselves alot better for trial. I myself know what questions to ask of a possible lawyer who I am going to hire. I want to know how well he litigates cases.

The reason for that is because a competent litigator can usually get you a better plea bargain. Don't start, I did not say all of them this and all of them that. It is just a tendency. But the fact of the matter is that everyone I ever knew who beat the system was White. One guy gets off scot free when they caught him with a grow room for pot, weapons and actually caught him selling the stuff. There are people doing twenty years for that, and he actually did a year and a half awaiting the appeal process. He intends to sue, even though the evidence was right there. Then there is another guy, money may have been a factor. They caught him transporting 200 pounds, and he got five months. What do you think the average sentence is for that ?

Other than being White, the only thing I see in common with these two individuals is that they thought things out and did not accept the first deal thrown on the table.

If the courts are truly color blind, that is the only explaination I can think of for this. Remember my generalisations are not to be taken as stereotypes. But there are tendencies I find. I callem as I seeum. This is all from people I personally know or have known.

T

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Profile   Post #: 167
RE: The death penalty - 5/7/2009 10:18:56 AM   
DomKen


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From: Chicago, IL
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quote:

ORIGINAL: CruelNUnsual

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: CruelNUnsual
Counter examples dont disprove the overall fact that whites receive the death penalty disproportionately more than blacks. That doesnt mean they dont deserve it more often than blacks, but it does refute racial bias in sentencing. A few hundred female body builders doesnt disprove the fact the women are generally physically weaker than men.

Once more the guy claimed racial bias was not involved in who were on death row. Not that bias was uncommon or statistically a minor compnent but that it wasn't there. Therefore any data showing it was there is sufficient to disprove his claim.


LMAO. Way to move the goalposts impossibly high. If you read his claim to be that bias is absolutely non-existent then you're a very creative reader. And if that IS his claim then he doesnt understand that virtually anything that is possible happens, particularly when your talking about human behavior. 

So yes, it exists...against all racial groups INCLUDING whites...and it is impossible to eliminate as long as humans are in charge of administering the law. Is it prevalent? If it is then it is a bias against whites.

How is responding to the actual claim made moving the goalposts? BTW I've looked at every case study of every person released from death row since 1973 and couldn't find any cases of even accused bias against a white on the basis of race. However there are several men who spent time on death row because of proven anti black bias.

The actual reasons why more whites are on death row and executed has far more to do with the demographics of the states that sentence large numbers to death than it has to do with any claimed anti white bias in capital punishment.

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Profile   Post #: 168
RE: The death penalty - 5/7/2009 10:23:00 AM   
samboct


Posts: 1817
Joined: 1/17/2007
Status: offline 		Hi T

"But the fact of the matter is that everyone I ever knew who beat the system was White."

Do the initials O.J. mean anything to you?

Sam

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Profile   Post #: 169
RE: The death penalty - 5/7/2009 11:49:28 AM   
slvemike4u


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From: United States
Status: offline 		Wouldn't that be a case of the exception that proves the rule?

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RE: The death penalty - 5/7/2009 12:25:30 PM   
stella41b


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From: SW London (UK)
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quote:

ORIGINAL: samboct

Hi T

"But the fact of the matter is that everyone I ever knew who beat the system was White."

Do the initials O.J. mean anything to you?

Sam


If you can afford your own team of defense lawyers you never come anywhere near the death penalty. Remember the Menendez brothers trial in California in 1996?


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Profile   Post #: 171
RE: The death penalty - 5/7/2009 12:26:29 PM   
CruelNUnsual


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quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

Wouldn't that be a case of the exception that proves the rule?


Yes, ignoring the fact that exceptions don't prove rules, despite the platitude.

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Profile   Post #: 172
RE: The death penalty - 5/7/2009 12:29:53 PM   
slvemike4u


Posts: 17896
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From: United States
Status: offline 		Cruel,please see Stella's post.....the only color that mattered during the Simpson trial was......green.
That and the ineptitude of the prosecution was all that was needed for an acquittal.
Hell,the L.A,DA's office had a confession in the Menendez trial and still wound up with a hung jury!

_____________________________

If we want things to stay as they are,things will have to change...Tancredi from "the Leopard"

Forget Guns-----Ban the pools

Funny stuff....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNwFf991d-4


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Profile   Post #: 173
RE: The death penalty - 5/7/2009 12:33:11 PM   
CruelNUnsual


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Joined: 9/28/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

Cruel,please see Stella's post.....the only color that mattered during the Simpson trial was......green.
That and the ineptitude of the prosecution was all that was needed for an acquittal.
Hell,the L.A,DA's office had a confession in the Menendez trial and still wound up with a hung jury!



Which has nothing to do with my post about the illogic of exceptions proving a rule.

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Profile   Post #: 174
RE: The death penalty - 5/7/2009 12:41:15 PM   
slvemike4u


Posts: 17896
Joined: 1/15/2008
From: United States
Status: offline 		Just an old phrase Cruel,please don't lose any sleep over it.

_____________________________

If we want things to stay as they are,things will have to change...Tancredi from "the Leopard"

Forget Guns-----Ban the pools

Funny stuff....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNwFf991d-4


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Profile   Post #: 175
RE: The death penalty - 5/7/2009 2:23:00 PM   
stella41b


Posts: 4258
Joined: 10/16/2007
From: SW London (UK)
Status: offline 		It would appear that the recent dispute between the AMA, state Medical Boards in states such as North Carolina and the courts and justice system may decide on whether states will be able to effectively carry out death sentences or not.

This current dispute which takes in North Carolina (where a de facto moratorium has been in place since 2007) Tennessee and Kentucky is over the role of doctors in executions. A couple of years ago the AMA came out against doctors participating in any way in executions and threatened to revoke the licenses of doctors who did take part in executions.

This has been a growing dispute since Thomas Harrison Provenzano challenged the constitutionality of electrocution back in 1999, when the Florida Supreme Court upheld the execution protocol in Florida and decided that electrocution did not violate the Eighth Amendment (cruel and unusual punishment) however the US Supreme Court went against this after the botched execution of Allen Lee Davis in July 1999. This caused the remaining states to implement lethal injection as the default method of execution.

Almost all states have implemented an execution protocol which involves the condemned prisoner being injected via two IV lines lethal doses of sodium thiopental which is an anaesthetic, then pancuronium bromide (or Pavulon) which causes overall paralysis and stops the breathing and then potassium chloride which stops the heart. A doctor is required to be present to monitor the prisoner's 'vital signs'.

However doctors are licensed under oath to 'prevent suffering' and to 'preserve life' and the Medical Boards and AMA appear unanimous that a doctor being present at an execution or taking any part of the execution is playing an active part in the execution.

However recently a divided North Carolina Supreme Court started to break down the legal logjam over the state's death penalty when it ruled 4-3 that doctors cannot be punished for taking part in executions.

A Wake County judge ruled two years ago that the Medical Board's policy overstepped its authority and that state law takes precedence, and the board appealed that ruling.

In a 4-3 decision that broke along gender lines, the court upheld the judge's ruling.

"We hold that (state law), by its plain language, envisions physician participation in executions in some professional capacity," Justice Edward Thomas Brady wrote for the majority. "(The Medical Board's) position statement exceeds its authority ... because the statement directly contravenes the specific requirement of physician presence."

The case turned on how the judges defined a physician's presence at an execution, as spelled out in state law, and Justice Robin Hudson wrote in the dissenting opinion that the court's majority defined it too broadly.

"The position statement is a valid exercise of (the Medical Board's) statutory authority. Any change in that authority – which is the practical effect of the majority opinion – is a matter for the General Assembly which granted it, not for the courts," Hudson wrote.

Medical Board officials said they disagreed with the decision and were disappointed by it.

“The Medical Board believes that the role of the physician is to end suffering and to preserve life. This board has taken the position that active physician participation in executions runs counter to the core values of medicine. That position has not changed," board President Dr. George Saunders said.

Raleigh physician Dr. Charles Van Der Horst said he has no plans to take part in an execution, regardless of the court's ruling.

"The Supreme Court, the Department of Correction, the attorney general, the governor, the state legislature, by abdicating their responsibility, are forcing physicians to commit murder," Van Der Horst said. "If the legal establishment wants to execute people, let them do it themselves and leave us out of it."

sources: http://www.wral.com/news/local/story/5063064/ and http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/








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Profile   Post #: 176
RE: The death penalty - 5/7/2009 11:45:07 PM   
Termyn8or


Posts: 18681
Joined: 11/12/2005
Status: offline 		I agree stella, if what you are trying to get across is that they inherently violate the Hippocratic oath.

But you really don't need an MD for this, many people could do it. Not that I agree with the method at all. I would druther the firing squad, with eleven firing real ammo and only one firing a blank. Closed casket. Oh, and when when I said I, I really meant I. That means if I were to be executed, that is what I would choose.

But really what right would I have to choose. If I should be able to control the means of my own death, but did not afford that right to my victim, by what right would I assert it ?

T

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Profile   Post #: 177
RE: The death penalty - 5/8/2009 12:56:57 PM   
stella41b


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From: SW London (UK)
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or

But really what right would I have to choose. If I should be able to control the means of my own death, but did not afford that right to my victim, by what right would I assert it ?

T



You do actually have a constitutional right to choose your method of execution as far as I'm aware in all US states which I guess would waiver your rights under the Eighth Amendment. Some states still offer electrocution, some lethal gas and others the firing squad.

However if you were a murderer I'm pretty sure that you wouldn't lock your victim away for ten to twenty years, procrastinating over whether to kill them or not, seek to kill them, then back off at the last minute, build up their hopes that they may survive, and then announce that you are going to kill them anyway but in a few months' time, which is basically the experience of most of who you find on Death Row.


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Profile   Post #: 178
RE: The death penalty - 5/8/2009 1:24:14 PM   
CruelNUnsual


Posts: 624
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quote:

ORIGINAL: stella41b


quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or

But really what right would I have to choose. If I should be able to control the means of my own death, but did not afford that right to my victim, by what right would I assert it ?

T





However if you were a murderer I'm pretty sure that you wouldn't lock your victim away for ten to twenty years, procrastinating over whether to kill them or not, seek to kill them, then back off at the last minute, build up their hopes that they may survive, and then announce that you are going to kill them anyway but in a few months' time, which is basically the experience of most of who you find on Death Row.



Which they need not suffer through if they dont avail themselves of the asinine number and grounds for appeals that we allow. Some don't and get it over with quickly.

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Profile   Post #: 179
RE: The death penalty - 5/8/2009 1:29:51 PM   
JstAnotherSub


Posts: 6174
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quote:

ORIGINAL: stella41b


You do actually have a constitutional right to choose your method of execution as far as I'm aware in all US states which I guess would waiver your rights under the Eighth Amendment. Some states still offer electrocution, some lethal gas and others the firing squad.

However if you were a murderer I'm pretty sure that you wouldn't lock your victim away for ten to twenty years, procrastinating over whether to kill them or not, seek to kill them, then back off at the last minute, build up their hopes that they may survive, and then announce that you are going to kill them anyway but in a few months' time, which is basically the experience of most of who you find on Death Row.



see, those of us that feel find them guilty beyond any doubt, then kill them ASAP are humanitarians.....dont wanna torture the poor killers.....

not to mention the tax dollars it would save...all around a good thing..




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Profile   Post #: 180
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