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RE: Human Nature - 5/4/2009 6:47:44 AM   
cpK69


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Status: offline 		Littlewonder,

quote:

Because it's "natural" doesn't mean it's always correct.


Could ‘natural’ in the sense you used here, be meant as ‘reflexive’?

Butch,

quote:

The only difference or what separates us is the ability to communicate and analyze our nature.


In reading this, could it be regarded as meaning; … the ability to analyze and communicate our beliefs?

I’m having a hard time staying with you on your point about love and hate, reason being, isn’t it true that the idea of what love is, is so varied amongst people that there is no universal definition? Also, I can’t help thinking these and many, if not all of the other attributes that you mention, are not taught, or at least people have the capability to learn a different way.

I am confused about these two statements; they are distinctly different in the way they are worded.

quote:

But as the top of the evolutionary chain we have the right and responsibility to determine how the rest of life on this earth interacts with us.


quote:

I said we had the right and responsibility as top of the evolutionary chain to determine how we interact with other species…


ST,

Isn’t it just as human, if not more so, to refuse things such as food, for the same reason?

I can only think of one time, off the top of my head, where action was very much animal (of the mammal variety). I was pissed at the time, and I can’t help thinking; I could have done better.

CatdeMedici,

Would you please elaborate on what you mean by this…

quote:

its that one little trait called choice that mucks things up--because after those core common elements--it all comes down to choice.


Misst,

Is it possible, that those who chalk up such things to human nature do not look further, because the implication is that it is the answer?

Vendaval,

Is it possible that humans still imply the same basic survival mechanisms, because few are taught a better way, and that it is the times when we try to reason with an adversary that makes the difference between the humans and mammals?

Rule,

In your mention of differences between male and female; would this be similar to what I perceive as a “cool water” disposition of males, and ‘high energy” of females? (irrespective of gender)

Your ex-friend reminds me of one of my bosses at work, only, I can’t tell if he is fooling himself, or just trying to fool everyone else; extremely frustrating though. He may have freedom, but it doesn’t lend much toward liberty.

FNf,

My 19 yr. old son thinks like that… *grrrrrr*

NG,

I was getting the impression it is being implied, in the definitions I looked up, these would also be things that would affect us for the same reasons; is that accurate?

Kim

< Message edited by cpK69 -- 5/4/2009 6:49:21 AM >

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RE: Human Nature - 5/4/2009 7:08:59 AM   
NorthernGent


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quote:

ORIGINAL: cpK69

NG,

I was getting the impression it is being implied, in the definitions I looked up, these would also be things that would affect us for the same reasons; is that accurate?

Kim


Yeah, I suppose one of the philosophical problems associated with the concept of a human nature is that it follows we should all react in the same manner to an identical situation; which of course is inaccurate.

I think the best that can be said is that we do share activating factors such as fear and pride; it has been understood for centuries that you can lead someone down a path by appealing to these factors. Yet there are no in-built laws governing how we respond to these appeals. I'd estimate there are far more people unable to employ their reason in the face of these appeals than we'd like to believe.

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RE: Human Nature - 5/4/2009 8:34:45 AM   
kdsub


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Status: offline 		Hi Kim

When I said we are separated by our ability to communicate and analyze our nature I was being very literal... we are writing...reading...and we are cognizant enough to discuss the meaning of nature. We are the only species able to do that.

We have the power…the only species to have the power to determine the fate of all other species, both plant and animal, on this earth. This is a huge responsibility and maybe a first in evolution. By interact I mean do we realize the importance of the balance of life? Do we understand our very own existence depends on this balance and act accordantly? Or do we destroy life around us and thus destroy ourselves.

We may love to different degrees…not in different ways and we all love…we all feel hate… on and on. The very fact that we all do it, every single one of us, means it is universal…or in our nature. We always think we are so different than everyone else when in fact we’re not…We are just as predictable as a deer in the woods in our actions because of our nature.

Butch


< Message edited by kdsub -- 5/4/2009 8:37:55 AM >

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RE: Human Nature - 5/4/2009 9:19:22 AM   
cpK69


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

You should look into the concept of tabula rasa.


I followed the link, is it what you believe?

Kim

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RE: Human Nature - 5/4/2009 10:47:49 AM   
cpK69


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quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

I'd estimate there are far more people unable to employ their reason in the face of these appeals than we'd like to believe.


The story goes, and my research concurs, approximately 2/3.

Hi Butch,

Thank you for the clarification. The only thing I see differently from what you are saying in the first two paragraphs, is the use of the word “power”; but that's a personal preference.

A couple of questions about love…

If a person in an environment where there is little to no physical, and or, verbal affection, at least not in a generally accepted form, and that person thrives; can’t that be love, just as much as someone being in a relationship where there is constant affection; or just as damaging, if a person is in the later type of relationship, and it causes them not to thrive?

If so, wouldn’t that be two different ways to love?

I think hate is a tricky animal; people say it in reference to something else, but they are actually reflecting something they do not like about themselves; either a lacking, or a similarity. Once I started thinking of it in that way, I stopped hating, and started looking for where it reflected back at me. I also can’t say that I hate anything, and mean it, because I believe in purpose, and in order for anything to have purpose, it seems to me, all things must have purpose. To hate something, would cancel myself out; can’t do it.

Kim

< Message edited by cpK69 -- 5/4/2009 10:48:41 AM >

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RE: Human Nature - 5/4/2009 12:34:30 PM   
RCdc


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quote:

ORIGINAL: cpK69
Butch,

quote:

The only difference or what separates us is the ability to communicate and analyze our nature.


In reading this, could it be regarded as meaning; … the ability to analyze and communicate our beliefs?

I’m having a hard time staying with you on your point about love and hate, reason being, isn’t it true that the idea of what love is, is so varied amongst people that there is no universal definition? Also, I can’t help thinking these and many, if not all of the other attributes that you mention, are not taught, or at least people have the capability to learn a different way.

I am confused about these two statements; they are distinctly different in the way they are worded.


I am going to hazzard a guess and say I believe that Butch might be making the distinction between sentience and sapience?
 
the.dark.

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RE: Human Nature - 5/4/2009 12:35:16 PM   
kdsub


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Status: offline 		Kim I think love is like water, which can manifest itself in different ways... a gas... a liquid… or a solid... but it is still water. Love can manifest itself in many ways as well but it is still love ... An emotion, a basic one, how we find it, what we think it is, how we deal with it, hell even how we describe it is up to the individual but it is still that common basic emotion that is in our nature.

Butch

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RE: Human Nature - 5/4/2009 12:44:05 PM   
kdsub


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark

quote:

ORIGINAL: cpK69
Butch,

quote:

The only difference or what separates us is the ability to communicate and analyze our nature.


In reading this, could it be regarded as meaning; … the ability to analyze and communicate our beliefs?

I’m having a hard time staying with you on your point about love and hate, reason being, isn’t it true that the idea of what love is, is so varied amongst people that there is no universal definition? Also, I can’t help thinking these and many, if not all of the other attributes that you mention, are not taught, or at least people have the capability to learn a different way.

I am confused about these two statements; they are distinctly different in the way they are worded.


I am going to hazzard a guess and say I believe that Butch might be making the distinction between sentience and sapience?[/size]


I was actually leaning to be more literal than that...the difference between those two words in the animal kingdom is a lot smaller than I think many people believe... but that of course is just my opinion.

< Message edited by kdsub -- 5/4/2009 12:46:57 PM >

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RE: Human Nature - 5/4/2009 4:13:54 PM   
cpK69


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

Kim I think love is like water, which can manifest itself in different ways... a gas... a liquid… or a solid... but it is still water. Love can manifest itself in many ways as well but it is still love ... An emotion, a basic one, how we find it, what we think it is, how we deal with it, hell even how we describe it is up to the individual but it is still that common basic emotion that is in our nature.

Butch



Butch,

I certainly do not wish to tell you how to love, or what you should believe love is.

However, the fact that I see love as something completely different, in itself, merits the idea that there is more than one way; doesn’t it?

Kim

< Message edited by cpK69 -- 5/4/2009 4:14:20 PM >

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RE: Human Nature - 5/4/2009 5:09:51 PM   
DesFIP


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Status: offline 		Unlike the op, my experience is the opposite. As the years go on I see more and more things that can be attributed to our hard wiring.

We are able to overrule our programming, however to do so we have to be aware that what's happening is a result of the hard wiring to begin with. And who has time to consider every tiny decision of the day and think about if we really chose it, or if it is a knee jerk response from the monkey brain, or the lizard brain? Not me.

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RE: Human Nature - 5/4/2009 7:16:29 PM   
kdsub


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Status: offline 		Kim I have found many people have a hard time describing what love is... I do...But we know there is love for your child, parent, siblings, friends, spouse, and many other things. You could call each a different kind of love... call it what you want but those same flavors of love are known to each of us in varying degrees according to our life experiences.

It is the feeling we have that is the same... our nature...how we got to experiencing it could be different...although as they say nothing is really new under the sun.

Butch


< Message edited by kdsub -- 5/4/2009 7:17:15 PM >

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RE: Human Nature - 5/4/2009 7:35:05 PM   
kdsub


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Status: offline 		I seem to remember some sociologists describe love as a physical manifestation instilled in us by evolution because it was a survival technique. Parents who fought for the survival of their children would prosper. Those that did not would not pass their genes on.

Sounds pretty harsh to me although I could understand it. But once that capability was built by natural selection it became part of our nature. Of course it has been refined over time.

I would much rather believe love is a gift from God…but it’s all opinion.

Butch

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RE: Human Nature - 5/4/2009 7:47:48 PM   
cpK69


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

Kim I have found many people have a hard time describing what love is... I do...But we know there is love for your child, parent, siblings, friends, spouse, and many other things. You could call each a different kind of love... call it what you want but those same flavors of love are known to each of us in varying degrees according to our life experiences.

It is the feeling we have that is the same... our nature...how we got to experiencing it could be different...although as they say nothing is really new under the sun.

Butch



Butch,

I have noticed the same…. I don’t… how I love does not change from one person to another. What changes is my responsibility toward each person, depending on the type of relationship it is.

I do not have a problem with love being a feeling for you.

Why does it have to be a feeling for me?

Kim


< Message edited by cpK69 -- 5/4/2009 7:48:38 PM >

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RE: Human Nature - 5/4/2009 7:52:24 PM   
cpK69


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

I would much rather believe love is a gift from God…but it’s all opinion.

Butch



Here is a place we might be able to gain some common ground. :)

I believe it is, and it starts with truth.

Kim

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RE: Human Nature - 5/4/2009 8:19:15 PM   
kdsub


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Status: offline 		My way of thinking is no better than yours so maybe we can both be right...lol... or wrong.

I enjoyed discussing this subject with you...Thanks.

Butch

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RE: Human Nature - 5/4/2009 8:52:34 PM   
cpK69


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

My way of thinking is no better than yours so maybe we can both be right...lol... or wrong.

I enjoyed discussing this subject with you...Thanks.

Butch




Defiant possibilities… it has been a good one, with lots to think about; thank you.
Kim


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RE: Human Nature - 5/4/2009 10:59:32 PM   
philosophy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesFIP

Unlike the op, my experience is the opposite. As the years go on I see more and more things that can be attributed to our hard wiring.

We are able to overrule our programming, however to do so we have to be aware that what's happening is a result of the hard wiring to begin with. And who has time to consider every tiny decision of the day and think about if we really chose it, or if it is a knee jerk response from the monkey brain, or the lizard brain? Not me.


...but we can choose to change our hard wiring...at least to a point. We may acquire a reflex which we don't like, so by dint of hard work and time, we change it. Eventually, it isn't that hard work anymore. Clearly we have survivial instincts genetically hard wired, but even those aren't precisely the same from person to person.

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RE: Human Nature - 5/5/2009 4:25:59 AM   
cpK69


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesFIP

Unlike the op, my experience is the opposite. As the years go on I see more and more things that can be attributed to our hard wiring.

We are able to overrule our programming, however to do so we have to be aware that what's happening is a result of the hard wiring to begin with.


I like the computer type analogy, it puts the topic in terms that are much easier to discuss; too bad you don’t have the time.
quote:


And who has time to consider every tiny decision of the day and think about if we really chose it, or if it is a knee jerk response from the monkey brain, or the lizard brain? Not me.

Might be hard to believe, but for some people, it is a natural as breathing; though I have to say, I don’t deal much with monkeys; I hear they throw shit, and the lizards I have encountered recently, aren’t saying much.
Kim


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RE: Human Nature - 5/5/2009 4:04:31 PM   
Vendaval


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Status: offline 		Fast Reply -

"The more one analyses people, the more all reasons for analysis disappear. Sooner or later one comes to that dreadful universal thing called human nature." - Oscar Wilde

http://www.quotesea.com/Quotes.aspx?by=Oscar+Wilde&page=12

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RE: Human Nature - 5/5/2009 6:49:43 PM   
cpK69


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Vendaval

Fast Reply -

"The more one analyses people, the more all reasons for analysis disappear. Sooner or later one comes to that dreadful universal thing called human nature." - Oscar Wilde

http://www.quotesea.com/Quotes.aspx?by=Oscar+Wilde&page=12


Seems like an upbeat kind of guy.

Kim

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