RE: Pony/Puppy play (with male subs)

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allthatjaz -> RE: Pony/Puppy play (with male subs) (5/13/2009 4:44:15 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: AlexandraLynch I don't want a 'yes animal'. But I'm a little bit different. I'd rather have a hawk than a dog. I had a human chicken once! She could lay eggs too

PeonForHer -> RE: Pony/Puppy play (with male subs) (5/13/2009 4:44:44 AM)
Akasha, I have a feeling that whatever subs may say here on this subject, it's not going to cut it You've been living D/s for too long and come across too many of the 'do-mes' in proportion to the ones who want to understand. Nonetheless, a small defence: quote: My big question is: Why is it that submissives ask fewer questions than vanillas? The easy answer is that they know more about "the scene" and have fewer questions, but think beyond that. If a submissive has been looking for a femdom for a long time, and finally meets one, why are his questions about what she can do and not why she does it? Why is it that the vanilla men are the ones that sit back after a scene and go, "What drives that beast inside of you?" I have theories. One is that submissives have ideas already about the mystery behind female dominance, so they don't have the desire to ask the questions. Another theory is that they don't really care. Again - so sad. I wouldn't doubt for a minute that you're right as to the main reasons why submissives won't ask. I can think of one other, though. This is that submissives may not understand themselves and their own drives, no matter how hard they try, so they figure that the same is true of dominants. I've tried to 'interrogate' myself to the point where I've been told by various people that 'I think too much' and I've fired enough questions at dominants (a few in particular) for them to say "Stop giving me headaches!". That all this should come up on a thread about pony/puppy play seems very apt, in a way. Puppies, particularly, have this habit of staring up really, really intently at your face - just as though they're desperate to understand what you're saying. I think I've come close to the "What drives that beast inside of you?" regards the submissive feelings myself - but I have a strong sense I'll never get all the way there. That sense is even stronger wth regards to 'what drives the beast' inside of dominants. I guess I'll never stop trying, though. I'm dogged in that way. [;)]

allthatjaz -> RE: Pony/Puppy play (with male subs) (5/13/2009 4:59:29 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: slavekal I don't know if I accept your original premise. I have known many ladies who love puppy/pony training. Even women who are not into the idea initially absolutely love riding in a saddle on a man's back once you convince them to hop on. For me thats not what pony play is about. A man under a saddle with a Mistress on top, is a clumsy slow one. I have tried it once and even though I am small the man struggled under trot and I didn't even risk a canter. Pony play was something I tried out just out of curiosity. Being a four legged horse trainer it just seemed a natural progression to give it a try. I was lucky enough to get this amazing human pony and I was mesmerized by the depth of her submission and the animalistic headspace it put her in. I have been into pony play ever since. I have talked at length with some pony girls and most of them have said that when in pony mode they feel safe, want to please and work best under a firm but kind hand........ same as a real pony. For me its like being a personal trainer that is constantly achieving new goals but the big thing that always gets me is the glazed eyes of the submissive, that always sends a shiver down the back of my neck One of the things I have always wanted to do is a mock hunt. I know a few Mistresses that ride and have there own horses and I think it would be great to set a slave loose and go out on horseback and hunt him down. Maria

BoiJen -> RE: Pony/Puppy play (with male subs) (5/13/2009 6:02:49 AM)
MsKitty gets into puppy play as puppy training. It's about structured play to instill loyalty and establish expectations of command and performance. I love it too... boi

thishereboi -> RE: Pony/Puppy play (with male subs) (5/13/2009 6:39:47 AM)
Not sure if I would call it pony play....Trigger is all horse and all male. http://www.thehumanequine.com/the1.html

pinnipedster -> RE: Pony/Puppy play (with male subs) (5/13/2009 7:43:51 AM)
What I was really trying to express is that I don't think you can always know why something that appeals greatly to one person doesn't appeal at al to another. I recall being on an email list where, in a discussion of feminization, one Domme asked: Why would I want to put so much effort into this? What am I supposed to get out of it? And I really think the best way to come back to that is in the old Louis Armstrong response: "If you've got to ask, you ain't ever gonna know." That is, if the idea doesn't appeal to you, there's probably nothing I can say that will make it appeal to you -- people don't work that way. I might be able to talk you into trying somethign you're not sure about, like I could a new type of food, but if it doesn't taste good to you, no amount of persuasion on my part is likely to change that. Pony play, in particular, is a pretty labor-intensive avocation, and I don't know why the appeal makes it emininetly worth it to some people and not to others. I don't think I can really explain why it has that appeal for me -- I mean, I can list reasons, as I did, but why are those reasons important to me but not to the next person over? Who knows? It's like trying to explain why blue is your favorite color. Certainly, in any relationship, it's important to understand the other person, what they are looking for, what they like and don't, and try to understand the 'why' behind it as far as it can be understood. And I have enough intellectual curiosity about human beings in general to wonder about the whys and wherefores of the mind. But I'm not sure I'll ever really :"get it" in terms of really understanding on a gut level why anyone would want to be a full-time Dominant; my own mind just doesn't work that way -- any more than I really "get" why women are attracted to men in the first place, when women are obviously much more attractive. :)

AAkasha -> RE: Pony/Puppy play (with male subs) (5/13/2009 8:00:38 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: PeonForHer Akasha, I have a feeling that whatever subs may say here on this subject, it's not going to cut it You've been living D/s for too long and come across too many of the 'do-mes' in proportion to the ones who want to understand. Nonetheless, a small defence: Well..that little piece I wrote 10 or 11 years ago, as I said, and while the main point of it I still find relevant, I am not nearly so irritated and frustrated. That was really at the peak of the time it was driving me up the wall, and in retrospect, I think a much bigger part of it had to do with meeting people as a lady (or, as appropriate, when I was a "girl," because some of it was when I was quite young) vs. meeting me as a "femdom." The first many many years of my S&M experimentation, I was "revealing" to boys, after we started dating, that I was into S&M. We were already bonded on some level, or at least, dating. So - it's clear they were very interested in me as a person, without ever knowing anything about my kinks. The natural reaction, clearly, is "you are into WHAT? WHY?" -- because it was hard for them to reconcile why I would be..so there was a lot of questioning and curiosity, and genuine interest because they liked me. Fast forward to the S&M scene, per se, for the first time for me, both online and off. The men that approached me, approached me as a femdom, so 10 x more would just be interested in what I would do to them, not why I was into it. I just found it frustrating that they didn't really seem to care. I dominated lots of guys over time and realized if you went back and asked them what they thought I got out of it, none of them would know unless I told them without them asking me. With vanilla guys, since I was initiating it and it was all my idea, clearly they wanted to know what the goal was so they could acheive it. What was it I was trying to feel anyway? Because for chrissakes, they were desperate to get it right! I've matured since I wrote that and learned that the best thing to make sure subs ask the questions is just tell them to ask them. It's all hot and sweet and romantic when I imagine a guy honestly wants to know the right things and says and does and asks the right things, but I found that the best way to avoid disappointment is to just tell them flat out before they have a chance to disappoint me by not asking. So if I am clearly pursuing a man and want him to know about my S&M side and drives, I'll tell him - a little at a time - why I am doing certain things and what I am feeling and what it does for me on an emotional level and how my urges are working one day to the next. Akasha

AAkasha -> RE: Pony/Puppy play (with male subs) (5/13/2009 8:20:30 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: pinnipedster What I was really trying to express is that I don't think you can always know why something that appeals greatly to one person doesn't appeal at al to another. I recall being on an email list where, in a discussion of feminization, one Domme asked: Why would I want to put so much effort into this? What am I supposed to get out of it? And I really think the best way to come back to that is in the old Louis Armstrong response: "If you've got to ask, you ain't ever gonna know." That is, if the idea doesn't appeal to you, there's probably nothing I can say that will make it appeal to you -- people don't work that way. I might be able to talk you into trying somethign you're not sure about, like I could a new type of food, but if it doesn't taste good to you, no amount of persuasion on my part is likely to change that. Pony play, in particular, is a pretty labor-intensive avocation, and I don't know why the appeal makes it emininetly worth it to some people and not to others. I don't think I can really explain why it has that appeal for me -- I mean, I can list reasons, as I did, but why are those reasons important to me but not to the next person over? Who knows? It's like trying to explain why blue is your favorite color. Certainly, in any relationship, it's important to understand the other person, what they are looking for, what they like and don't, and try to understand the 'why' behind it as far as it can be understood. And I have enough intellectual curiosity about human beings in general to wonder about the whys and wherefores of the mind. But I'm not sure I'll ever really :"get it" in terms of really understanding on a gut level why anyone would want to be a full-time Dominant; my own mind just doesn't work that way -- any more than I really "get" why women are attracted to men in the first place, when women are obviously much more attractive. :) If the woman appears or feels secondary to the fetish, it will never work. "Trying to find a woman who will engage in x with me," can come across all wrong. On some levels I get that, because you don't want to date someone non-kinky. But as you get more and more specific about a lady needing to be into x and trying to get a sense of that, it just feels like you are looking for a job applicant to fill a role and she must have a skillset, vs. a woman that rocks your world and happens to be kinky. If you get more specific than that, how can it not be objectifying? But more importantly, rather than just sugar coat your urges, maybe they are - at the core - objectifying? Maybe at the end of the day, the scene and the props ARE more important than the woman? Is the woman interchangeable in your mind when you play out the fantasy but the props all stay the same? If so, do you think that's a possible problem? Rather than thinking about whether or not a potential mate is into pony play at the level you imagine it, I think the logical order, if you are seeking a romantic partner, is: 1) A woman who is open minded and kinky and; 2) is interested in bondage, definitely (very broad); 3) is accepting of feminization on some level at least, and; 4) is not intimidated by costuming, roleplay, open minded type play, is theatrical in her playful side and enjoys more thought out, pre planned "play" ..and then, in the essence of #4, you find your "potential" to make that kind of play happen - WHEN she is so into you that it's obvious she will want to start expanding in a manner that feels good for her. If a woman had all four qualities and you were intimate and romantic, why wouldn't she give it a whirl and appreciate it? In my case, the moment a man comes to me with any kind of "pre-expectations" of what a scene will look like when we do it, or has it all mapped out to match his fantasy, if I am not already romantic with him or we're coming from a place from serious mutual attraction (I mean I KNOW he is feeling genuine chemistry with me, not a fantasy), I find it to be a huge turn off. Let's face it, we all know when you are with someone and feeling chemistry vs. just met someone and they are acting like they have super-romantic-feelings for you and they don't even know you. You know they have super-romantic-feelings for the idea that you are going to make their super fantasy a reality. If I am just getting to know a sub and he presents that he has broad based interests in "things" but is open to how they are handled, that's much more tangible. Above all, I prefer to be the one peeling the onion anyway, but since it's important to get kink compatibility on the table, simply stating general interests is fine. Akasha

TexasMaam -> RE: Pony/Puppy play (with male subs) (5/13/2009 10:16:49 AM)
Temperance is right. Pony play and puppy play are very popular in the UK and along the mediterranean coast. While it is possible to find active groups on this side of the big pond, they're usually limited to a given regional area. Connecticut has a very active pony play group, I have heard of active groups in California and Rhode Island also but I'm only personally acquainted with some in CT so I can't speak to the other areas. I'm sure other responses to this thread have given you some other resources as well, (I haven't read the entire thread). Best of luck, TM

PeonForHer -> RE: Pony/Puppy play (with male subs) (5/13/2009 10:20:08 AM)
quote: I've matured since I wrote that and learned that the best thing to make sure subs ask the questions is just tell them to ask them. It's all hot and sweet and romantic when I imagine a guy honestly wants to know the right things and says and does and asks the right things, but I found that the best way to avoid disappointment is to just tell them flat out before they have a chance to disappoint me by not asking. So if I am clearly pursuing a man and want him to know about my S&M side and drives, I'll tell him - a little at a time - why I am doing certain things and what I am feeling and what it does for me on an emotional level and how my urges are working one day to the next. Akasha Yes. It can be hideously difficult for partners to communicate their feelings anyway. Add into that the D/s element and . . . . well, I'd guess it's next to impossible unless both parties make strenuous efforts. Two other points spring immediately to mind re that communication: One is the mistake of thinking "He or she understands some very deep things. Therefore, I can assume that he or she will understand this thing that feels so obvious - even superficial - to me". I, for instance, didn't understand that a dominant can give a sub a task, or an order, and that for the dominant this can be an expression of affection from her. That little bit of a dominant's wiring I'd never seen before. Secondly, re " . . It's all hot and sweet and romantic when I imagine a guy honestly wants to know the right things and says and does and asks the right things, but I found that the best way to avoid disappointment is to just tell them flat out before they have a chance to disappoint me by not asking" - that sounds like a compromise that you felt you just had to make after so many years of bad experiences - of hoping and expecting that a submissive man will do and ask the right things. I was thinking that I've had to make a similar compromise. Or, rather, perhaps, something of a submissive, flip-side, of your own sort of compromise. (And this relates directly to that thorny old subject of 'do me subs'.) An integral part of my original, youthful concept of D/s was that a dominant will order me to do exactly what I want to be ordered to do, and nothing else. She wouldn't need to read my mind - that was 'just what dominants did' - in my vibrant and ever-growing fantasy world.

TexasMaam -> RE: Pony/Puppy play (with male subs) (5/13/2009 10:29:11 AM)
I did read a few of your responses. Did I miss something, or are you speaking in rhetorical terms here? How much experience have you actually had with pony play vs your fantasies? I have quite a lot of experience with pony play but it just doesn't appeal to Me beyond the occasional rush of enjoying a sub's total absorption in that equine headspace if it's really his fetish. I'm very into bondage and rigging, but for Me the experience of having a submale under tack was most rewarding for the photo ops, which were great fun. I can have that kind of gratification with harness and bondage for it's own sake without bits and tack involved. I suppose I'm just too obscessed with real equines to enjoy the antics of a clumsy guy mucking about in disguise as one. My lukewarm appreciation for pony play probably comes down to the fact that I want a submale to be all man, just as I want a great horse to be all horse. Have fun, TM

ThatDamnedPanda -> RE: Pony/Puppy play (with male subs) (5/13/2009 11:04:30 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: allthatjaz quote: ORIGINAL: AlexandraLynch I don't want a 'yes animal'. But I'm a little bit different. I'd rather have a hawk than a dog. I had a human chicken once! She could lay eggs too You're kidding! Holy cats! That's amazing! How did you... Wait a minute. You just made that up, didn't you? [:o]

pinnipedster -> RE: Pony/Puppy play (with male subs) (5/13/2009 11:28:26 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: AAkasha If the woman appears or feels secondary to the fetish, it will never work. "Trying to find a woman who will engage in x with me," can come across all wrong. On some levels I get that, because you don't want to date someone non-kinky. But as you get more and more specific about a lady needing to be into x and trying to get a sense of that, it just feels like you are looking for a job applicant to fill a role and she must have a skillset, vs. a woman that rocks your world and happens to be kinky. I think perhaps the problem (well, part of the problem -- there's no question but that I've got a load of problems!) is that I'm looking for more than one thing. My ultimate goal is, certainly, to find a woman to share my life, and BDSM would be only one part of that -- how big a part, I think we would have to work out; it might just be occasional spice in the bedroom, or it might be a major part of our dynamic -- it just depends on how things develop. But, in the meantime -- since finding that person could take many years, if it ever happens at all -- I am also open to the possibility of play partners, people who happen to share some of my kinks even if we don't have that much in common or, for whatever reason, aren't right for a relationship with each other. quote: Rather than thinking about whether or not a potential mate is into pony play at the level you imagine it, I think the logical order, if you are seeking a romantic partner, is: 1) A woman who is open minded and kinky and; 2) is interested in bondage, definitely (very broad); 3) is accepting of feminization on some level at least, and; 4) is not intimidated by costuming, roleplay, open minded type play, is theatrical in her playful side and enjoys more thought out, pre planned "play" That may be a better summary than anything I've managed to write myself -- with one minor alteration to number 3: strike "feminization" and insert "crossdressing" -- the latter may or may not include actual feminization. I guess part of the matter is that I've been dealing with the whole crossdressing thing for many years. In the case of my first two girlfriends, I dated them for some time before coming out to them. Fortunately in neither case was it a deal-breaker -- but for many women it would be. So I switched to a different strategy of being open about it first -- one which, admittedly, has not been very succesful -- I haven't really been in a real relationship since; I've had a few affairs with women where we both were clear from the outset it wasn't going to be permanent. but that's different. (The two women I'm think of in particular both knew I was kinky ahead of time, too, but made it clear they were not -- something I admit I have trouble understanding; being kinky seems to me to be the natural thing to want to do.) So I've tried to deal with kink the same way. Part of that is that my first girlfriend did engage in some B&D with me, but after we broke up, made it clear she was only doing so because I wanted her to, and kind of resented it (although she also admitted there were aspects she enjoyed). I never wanted to make that mistake again; I've wanted to find someone who already had desires in that direction, so we'd be fulfilling her fantasies just as much as (or more than) mine. One-sided things don't work -- though, to be sure, one can work on acting out a partner's fantasy to please him/her, even if it doesn't turn you on, but this should be equitable -- if it's always one partner catering to the other, I think in the long run it's going to be a problem. Anyhow, apologies for the rambling, and let me express my sincere thanks for your thoughts. I appreciate the advice, and the fact that you're willing to invest the time in providing it. (It makes me feel, perhaps erroneously, that you hold out some hope of it doing some good, and therefore don't think I'm incurably clueless....;))

PeonForHer -> RE: Pony/Puppy play (with male subs) (5/13/2009 11:28:34 AM)
I've a suspicion that Alexandra didn't make it up and that it may not be best to pursue her for more information . . . [;)]

pinnipedster -> RE: Pony/Puppy play (with male subs) (5/13/2009 3:49:40 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: TexasMaam I did read a few of your responses. Did I miss something, or are you speaking in rhetorical terms here? How much experience have you actually had with pony play vs your fantasies? My actual experience is admittedly minimal. At a FemDom retreat a couple of years ago, one of the ladies present put me in a bridle, led me around the playroom a bit trying to get me to assume a proper gait, and then hooked my reins to a spot on the wall as lunch was being served. She then freed me so I could eat, though I would have as soon she hadn't -- as one of the other ladies (who knew me much better) said, "He can eat any time -- how often does he get to be a pony?" Shortly after lunch, the woman involved left, taking the bridle with her. It was just enough to whet my appetite for more. Another woman there expressed an interest to explore matters further with me -- she seemed particularly focused on playing with my hair (which was quite long at the time) to try to turn it into an acceptable mane -- and we met after the event a few times, and made a prototype bridle from web straps that I still have. But we never found a place where we could play, and shortly thereafter her interest in BDSM in general and me in particular (as a sub, that is) waned. We're still very good friends but there's no likliehood of any activity there any time soon, probably ever. I admit that I've long feared the reality would/will not live up to the fantasy -- in particular, being a pony is hard physical work, and I'm, well, kinda lazy. :) But I still want to give it a try. quote: I'm very into bondage and rigging, but for Me the experience of having a submale under tack was most rewarding for the photo ops, which were great fun. I can have that kind of gratification with harness and bondage for it's own sake without bits and tack involved. Well, I for one would have no objection at all to that, either. :) But it is a different thing. quote: I suppose I'm just too obscessed with real equines to enjoy the antics of a clumsy guy mucking about in disguise as one. My lukewarm appreciation for pony play probably comes down to the fact that I want a submale to be all man, just as I want a great horse to be all horse. Understandable, though I think too bad in a way -- I think that experience with real equines would be very helpful for a trainer in this kind of play. But, if it doesn't float your boat.... Have fun, TM

hairslave -> RE: Pony/Puppy play (with male subs) (5/13/2009 6:31:09 PM)
Last night i forgot to also include MistressDolly's quote with my commit. MistressDolly says it best as to how a male sub,s mind attitudes should be. If we can learn to be more canine-like as pony boys, maybe we well become more appealing to Dommes. i For one am trying to learn this. quote: ORIGINAL: MistressDolly I think all male subs should strive to be canine-like; dogs are the most affectionate, loyal, owner-pleasing animals out there. What Mistress wouldn't like a yes animal?

hairslave -> RE: Pony/Puppy play (with male subs) (5/13/2009 7:13:31 PM)
allithatjaz i for one wish i could be your slave in such a slave hunt! quote: ORIGINAL: allthatjaz quote: ORIGINAL: slavekal One of the things I have always wanted to do is a mock hunt. I know a few Mistresses that ride and have there own horses and I think it would be great to set a slave loose and go out on horseback and hunt him down. Maria

AlexandraLynch -> RE: Pony/Puppy play (with male subs) (5/13/2009 9:18:41 PM)
I was speaking metaphorically about characters of people. Anyone can speak to someone who flies a hawk, and they understand that it is a relationship in which one must consider the nature and needs of the bird as much as training it to your standards, know that essentially the bird is consenting to work with you, and that any time you fly that hawk that it will not come back unless it wants to. I prefer my submissives, in a metaphorical sense, to be hawks, not dogs who submit to just anyone or anything.

Andalusite -> RE: Pony/Puppy play (with male subs) (5/14/2009 12:27:10 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: allthatjaz One of the things I have always wanted to do is a mock hunt. I know a few Mistresses that ride and have there own horses and I think it would be great to set a slave loose and go out on horseback and hunt him down. There's a local "animal play" foxhunt this month or next month. I don't think I'll have a chance to go, but it sounds like a fun idea! Pinnipedster, since I ride actual horses, I have almost all of the handler type equipment I'd need, though not harness/saddle/etc. I even have a human bit gag. However, most playparties don't allow longe whips, since they're too long for the standards there, and even longeing or driving without one really takes more space than most venues allow. I can agree that if someone doesn't see the appeal, you might not be able to change their mind, but personally, there are all kinds of things I really enjoy, on both sides of the whip, that didn't seem interesting (or even seemed scary or icky) that became yummy (either with the right partner, or once I actually tried them). Many things are very different to fantasise about than to actually do, and that can be good as well as bad. I still think it's worthwhile to perhaps try to find a way to explain/present it in a way that does appeal to an individual person, and I think you'll have better luck with it if you can find out from her what she likes about other types of play that she does enjoy, or get into her head a little more just in general to find how to appeal to her in such a way that she's more likely to indulge you in something because you'd enjoy it (because she is getting what she wants and needs from you in other areas). Being a "pony" wouldn't necessarily have to be hard physical work. In the thread I wrote a while back on "bratty animal play," we were discussing various possibilities. I think in some circumstances it would be amusing to have someone play a Thellwell pony, sidleing just out of range when I tried to grab his bridle, snatching carrots and checking my pockets for sugar, needing to get lots of thwacks with the dressage whip to move out of a walk, etc. Not the kind of dynamic I'd want on a regular basis, but a fun, playful, silly kind of scene. Panda, I assume the human chicken was laying fake or hard-boiled eggs, and that she had to insert them first. [;)] As to the sense of one-ness, getting inside each others' hearts and heads, absolutely! I enjoy some kinky stuff more than others, but the way that the submissive or bottom or switch (assuming I'm topping or dominating) is reacting, and how we feel about each other, matters so much more than the trappings or script! sweetsub, precisely! Especially when it comes to D/s rather than S/M and bondage, there are such different expectations from one person to the next, so it's crucial to find out details of their approach, and why certain things are important to them, in order to find out if we are compatible! Trust on both sides takes time to build, and we need to get to know each other before we make a commitment, not have a meaningless "collar" and then try to figure out where to go from there!

PeonForHer -> RE: Pony/Puppy play (with male subs) (5/14/2009 1:32:14 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: AlexandraLynch I was speaking metaphorically about characters of people. Anyone can speak to someone who flies a hawk, and they understand that it is a relationship in which one must consider the nature and needs of the bird as much as training it to your standards, know that essentially the bird is consenting to work with you, and that any time you fly that hawk that it will not come back unless it wants to. I prefer my submissives, in a metaphorical sense, to be hawks, not dogs who submit to just anyone or anything. Alexandra, That makes perfect sense. Sorry, though - I mixed up your comment with that of Allthatjazz, who said "I had a human chicken once! She could lay eggs too". It was that comment about which I didn't think Panda should ask too many questions!

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