RE: Letter of Amends from a Recovering Liberal (Full Version)

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kittinSol -> RE: Letter of Amends from a Recovering Liberal (5/12/2009 7:40:19 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

It makes me happy to see you say that it would be constructive for somebody to come up with a "viable and moderate alternative to the Democrats."




Of course. This is a two-party system, except that right now one of the two parties isn't worth jack shit. A two-party system needs balance of power between the parties, but it's not by concentrating on pathetic fake letters and what Obama laughed at at the "White House Correspondents' Dinner" and making up bullshit about socialists that the conservative party of this country will provide that balance. Nobody believes them but themselves. The proof is in the pudding of the elections, so to speak.

It's counterproductive to constantly play the part of the antagonist: perhaps some people will learn this eventually, but in the meantime it does nothing but harm their cause (or lack thereof).




OrionTheWolf -> RE: Letter of Amends from a Recovering Liberal (5/12/2009 8:46:51 PM)

I read this same idea, about those during Plato's time as well. It all ebbs and flows, peaks and valleys as the needs of a people change.


quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

The electoral landscape is changing to reflect the changing demographics. The old conservative views are dying, together with the people that hold them. A certain way of thinking is slowly disappearing. I understand why it's scary to you: change can be. But it is inevitable, and of course some people cling on to old notions and passé values; but in the end, all that they are doing is watching the train pass them by... preferably at high speed.




OrionTheWolf -> RE: Letter of Amends from a Recovering Liberal (5/12/2009 8:49:25 PM)

~FR~

I have admitted this letter may be fake, but so many are stating it is fact. If it is in fact a fake, then please show some proof. Otherwise it is just an opinion, and not fact. I again did a search on snopes and found nothing.

Whether it is fake or not, it sure seems to have pissed off many Democrats, and I wonder why it is such a touchy issue.




Sanity -> RE: Letter of Amends from a Recovering Liberal (5/12/2009 9:11:43 PM)


You have a point, Orion. I think that letter, real or not, touches on something that is very real.

It's undeniable how much hatred is seething in the Democrat party today, and it's startling to many how that madness seems to go right up to the very top. The thing with Limbaugh the other night, Obama laughing at the "joke" of wishing someone dead and calling him one of the 9/11 hijackers over a political disagreement... to me,  that's proof of the intense hatred that the letter discusses.

If some Democrats who supported Hillary did feel that hate turned on them, which I can imagine actually happened... I can see the letter in the OP coming from that situation.


quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

~FR~

I have admitted this letter may be fake, but so many are stating it is fact. If it is in fact a fake, then please show some proof. Otherwise it is just an opinion, and not fact. I again did a search on snopes and found nothing.

Whether it is fake or not, it sure seems to have pissed off many Democrats, and I wonder why it is such a touchy issue.




FirmhandKY -> RE: Letter of Amends from a Recovering Liberal (5/12/2009 10:41:06 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity

You have a point, Orion. I think that letter, real or not, touches on something that is very real.

It's undeniable how much hatred is seething in the Democrat party today ...


Just out of idle curiosity (and perhaps this subject is worthy of a thread all its own), how many on the left are concerned about public displays of their political affiliation, versus how many on the right are concerned about displays of their political affiliation?

Perhaps it just my own prejudice, but I am more than just wary of placing any type of bumper sticker that reflects my political support, for fear of having to repaint my car, or replace windows or windshields.

I've been in an airport where an entire family (long hair father, young, t-shirt wearing mother - with her breast proudly on display - and two young sons) all wearing "Obama 08" t-shirts. 

It seemed confrontational to me, and I had no doubt that any discussion about politics wouldn't have been a "discussion" at all.

Is this just my own prejudices, or do others have the same concerns and experiences?

Firm




Vendaval -> RE: Letter of Amends from a Recovering Liberal (5/12/2009 10:44:03 PM)

I do not place political stickers on my car at all because the possibility for damage is just not worth it. 
 
T-shirts are fine either way.  You see people sporting memorabilia for rival sports teams all the time anyways so why not politics?




ThatDamnedPanda -> RE: Letter of Amends from a Recovering Liberal (5/12/2009 10:49:46 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity

It's undeniable how much hatred is seething in the Democrat party today...


To whatever extent you're correct, the word "backlash" comes immediately to mind. As well as the phrase, "paying the piper."




FirmhandKY -> RE: Letter of Amends from a Recovering Liberal (5/12/2009 10:54:57 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDamnedPanda

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity

It's undeniable how much hatred is seething in the Democrat party today...


To whatever extent you're correct, the word "backlash" comes immediately to mind. As well as the phrase, "paying the piper."



Panda ... what goes around, comes around. [:)]

Karma does seem like a valid operational concept of life, methinks.

Firm




ThatDamnedPanda -> RE: Letter of Amends from a Recovering Liberal (5/12/2009 10:56:02 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY
Just out of idle curiosity (and perhaps this subject is worthy of a thread all its own), how many on the left are concerned about public displays of their political affiliation, versus how many on the right are concerned about displays of their political affiliation?

Perhaps it just my own prejudice, but I am more than just wary of placing any type of bumper sticker that reflects my political support, for fear of having to repaint my car, or replace windows or windshields.



I don't wear my politics on my T-shirt or my bumper. It's not because I'm worried about having to buy new tires - I mean, hell, I'm driving around with a 3-foot wide "PACKERS" sticker on the rear window, in the middle of Minnesota - but because to me, politics is personal matter. I don't mind letting people know I'm proud of my Packers, but I don't feel any reason to announce to strangers who my favorite political figures are.




ThatDamnedPanda -> RE: Letter of Amends from a Recovering Liberal (5/12/2009 11:05:09 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDamnedPanda

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity

It's undeniable how much hatred is seething in the Democrat party today...


To whatever extent you're correct, the word "backlash" comes immediately to mind. As well as the phrase, "paying the piper."



Panda ... what goes around, comes around. [:)]




It surely  does, and the dems in Washington would do well to consider that those who ride the crest of the wave of hubris today will be shattered on the rocks of failed ambitions when the tide goes out in the morning... as the tide always does. This is perhaps what makes me the saddest about Obama these days - the boisterous, prideful arrogance that marks his demeanor in almost every public appearance. There was a day, Mr. President, when Bush's approval ratings were even higher than yours are now. Yet when the wheel turned, he was nevertheless crushed in the mud. The dems need to be aware that that day is coming for them as surely as it comes for everyone in their profession, and govern accordngly. But I know they will not...




DomKen -> RE: Letter of Amends from a Recovering Liberal (5/12/2009 11:59:39 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity

You have a point, Orion. I think that letter, real or not, touches on something that is very real.

It's undeniable how much hatred is seething in the Democrat party today ...


Just out of idle curiosity (and perhaps this subject is worthy of a thread all its own), how many on the left are concerned about public displays of their political affiliation, versus how many on the right are concerned about displays of their political affiliation?

Perhaps it just my own prejudice, but I am more than just wary of placing any type of bumper sticker that reflects my political support, for fear of having to repaint my car, or replace windows or windshields.

I've been in an airport where an entire family (long hair father, young, t-shirt wearing mother - with her breast proudly on display - and two young sons) all wearing "Obama 08" t-shirts. 

It seemed confrontational to me, and I had no doubt that any discussion about politics wouldn't have been a "discussion" at all.

Is this just my own prejudices, or do others have the same concerns and experiences?

Firm


It depends. If I'm here in chicago I wear any t shirt I want and frequently go out in my old school Obama for State Senate t shirt. However if I'm visiting my relatives in suburban Atlanta or rural Alabama I do not do anything to draw attention to my politics. A lesson learned from much hard experience. Driving a Prius and having a northern accent is enough to get me odd looks from locals around Fort Payne especially well off the interstate.

However I'm puzzled, simply wearing a t shirt struck you as confrontational? Were they running up to suspected conservatives and surrounding them or something? Really for someone who has so frequently told others to be thicker skinned I think you are being more than a bit hyper sensitive. People wear those shirts out of pride and relief not out of any desire to rub it in.




Vendaval -> RE: Letter of Amends from a Recovering Liberal (5/13/2009 12:21:17 AM)

It's usually not such a great idea to wear a Rainbow Pride shirt into the nearest Redneck bar...communication...audience...location...exit strategy.




Kirata -> RE: Letter of Amends from a Recovering Liberal (5/13/2009 12:27:20 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

Just out of idle curiosity (and perhaps this subject is worthy of a thread all its own), how many on the left are concerned about public displays of their political affiliation, versus how many on the right are concerned about displays of their political affiliation?

I dislike displays of that kind. I think this whole "I'm a [...] and I'm proud of it" crap is provocative and rude, regardless of what the "..." is. "I'm a Democrat and I'm proud of it"; "I'm a Republican and I'm proud of it"; "I'm a Christian and I'm proud of it"; "I'm Black and I'm proud of it"; "I'm White and I'm proud of it"; "I'm Gay and I'm proud of it"; what-evah-the-fuck. Who cares? If you want to be proud of something, shut up and do something worthwhile.

K.






OrionTheWolf -> RE: Letter of Amends from a Recovering Liberal (5/13/2009 5:55:03 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen
It depends. If I'm here in chicago I wear any t shirt I want and frequently go out in my old school Obama for State Senate t shirt. However if I'm visiting my relatives in suburban Atlanta or rural Alabama I do not do anything to draw attention to my politics. A lesson learned from much hard experience. Driving a Prius and having a northern accent is enough to get me odd looks from locals around Fort Payne especially well off the interstate.


I live in a rural area outside Atlanta, and every corner convienence store is selling Obama hats, shirts, etc. Also I see several Prius' around here, so I am not sure why that would matter. As far as the northern accent, I believe you may get the same reception by a few that a southern one gets in New England.

Now Fort Payne may be a different story, though I have not been there in over 20 years. I know up on Sand Mountain you would definately get odd looks. I lived in Fort Payne for a few years as a young boy.

quote:


However I'm puzzled, simply wearing a t shirt struck you as confrontational? Were they running up to suspected conservatives and surrounding them or something? Really for someone who has so frequently told others to be thicker skinned I think you are being more than a bit hyper sensitive. People wear those shirts out of pride and relief not out of any desire to rub it in.


Friend of mine met me at Little Five a couple of months ago, and he has a McCain/Palin sticker, which got him so very rude comments when where we parked.




kittinSol -> RE: Letter of Amends from a Recovering Liberal (5/13/2009 7:12:10 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf
Friend of mine met me at Little Five a couple of months ago, and he has a McCain/Palin sticker, which got him so very rude comments when where we parked.


Political stickers of all kinds are just plain sad, but one claiming the owner of the car backed the most looserish team in recent history.. well, it's the ultimate in sadness.

Yes, it's all very, very sad [8D] .




DomKen -> RE: Letter of Amends from a Recovering Liberal (5/13/2009 7:48:35 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen
It depends. If I'm here in chicago I wear any t shirt I want and frequently go out in my old school Obama for State Senate t shirt. However if I'm visiting my relatives in suburban Atlanta or rural Alabama I do not do anything to draw attention to my politics. A lesson learned from much hard experience. Driving a Prius and having a northern accent is enough to get me odd looks from locals around Fort Payne especially well off the interstate.


I live in a rural area outside Atlanta, and every corner convienence store is selling Obama hats, shirts, etc. Also I see several Prius' around here, so I am not sure why that would matter. As far as the northern accent, I believe you may get the same reception by a few that a southern one gets in New England.

Now Fort Payne may be a different story, though I have not been there in over 20 years. I know up on Sand Mountain you would definately get odd looks. I lived in Fort Payne for a few years as a young boy.

Well my relatives don't actually live in Fort Payne. It's just that is the big town I used as a reference. My relatives live farther down the valley, Collinsville, and up on Sand Mountain, Crossville and Fitzgerald, and I definitely do get some odd looks.

Haven't been down there recently but I somehow doubt the stores up on Sand Mountain are selling Obama T's.




philosophy -> RE: Letter of Amends from a Recovering Liberal (5/13/2009 10:13:28 AM)

FR (and possibly a hijack but just going where the thread meanders)

....i'm somewhat troubled at the apparent polarisation in US politics at the grass roots level. Seriously, one can't wear t-shirts or bumper stickers showing ones political affiliation and not feel the possibility of confrontation.
This points to me to a deep problem. The sort of problem that leads to serious violence. Left wing or right wing. Democrat or Republican (or third party of your choice). The common theme is that all want what they percieve to be best for their country. None of them are traitors. None of them are evil bastards (well, ok, maybe one or two evil bastards...but most aren't).
For a country that values free speech to allow itself to get so....fundamentalist......well, i hope i'm not the only one to see that irony.




CruelNUnsual -> RE: Letter of Amends from a Recovering Liberal (5/13/2009 10:22:00 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lorr47

CBS asked a talking head after Obama was regaled by a critic whether Obama should worry about such shots.  He said that a solid 30% of this nation would never back Obama; hated him; wished an Obama failure and that Obama should simply ignore them.  The other 70% appeared to the talking head as still backing Obama in varying degrees; would give Obama the benefit ot the doubt; felt Obama was trying which republicans were not doing; and were basically saying that it was too early to tell; four months in office is too early to leap to an conclusion.  This is a conservative area and the worst I have illicited is "it is too early to tell"  and "Ok, I guess."

Dick Durbin while criticizing both democrats and republicans noted that all republicans in the senate voted against an amendment and that it was impossible to tell why?  However, Durbin did comment that the banking industry is by far still the most powerful lobby on the hill. Durbin felt that republicans may have an agenda, but darned if he knew what it was and had some questions whether republicans themselves knew what their agenda was.  Charlie Munger the vice chairman of Berkshire Hathaway (Buffet) called banks who lobbied against the amendment everything from venile (sic) to loathsome. The amendment would have allowed bankruptcy judges, in certain circumstances, to cram down home mortgages to the house's present fair market value.  At the present time the banks after bankruptcy sell the property for its fair market value anyway.  What irked most is that there already is the same cram down feature for ranches and cottages.  Thus, the cram down feature already exists for the rich but not the John Doe home owner.

Of course, the whole new bankruptcy code came under scruntiny again. MBNA credit card company had donated $41 million to Bush's campaign about four years ago (how I do not know) and demanded a new bankruptcy code as repayment; favoring credit card indebtedness of course. Now, when orders for repayment come out of court it is not a unique event to see the first item that must be repaid are credit cards followed by child support and alimony.  Many see that as ass backwards as to prioities.

Finally I saw a discussion of where  Obama was heading in regard to health care.  Obama's goal is a government plan in competition with private insurers.  Since polling shows 130 million citizens would sign up, the present insurance cartel is fighting it tooth and nail.  When asked what the republicans were doing in this regard, the uniform answer was that the republicans were not offering a single alternative plan; not one; not even a partial plan.  However, republicans are vociferous in their opposition to Obama's plan.

It is difficult to criticize Obama when there is no alternative; or the so called alternative is in the lobbyists' hip pocket.  Obama thus far has little to worry about.








Youve got the MBNA story fubar. Bush received $600k LIFETIME from MBNA. Meanwhile, Biden was co-sponsor of the MBNA bill and he received massive donations from them.

"
But as much as he bungled the issue, it turns out Clatworthy was on to something: Biden and MBNA have indeed developed a pretty cozy relationship. John Cochran, the company's vice-chairman and chief marketing officer, did pay top dollar for Biden's house, and MBNA gave Cochran a lot of money—$330,000—to help with "expenses" related to the move. A few months after the sale, as Biden's re-election effort got under way, MBNA's top executives contributed generously to his campaign in a series of coordinated donations that sidestepped the limits on contributions by the company's political action committee. And then, a short time after the election, MBNA hired Biden's son for a lucrative job in which, according to bank officials, he is being groomed for a senior management position.
Of course, lots of members of Congress have intimate ties to corporations in their states or districts. And lots of companies encourage their employees to make big campaign contributions (MBNA has given more to some Republicans than it gave to Biden). And certainly lots of children of influential parents end up in very good jobs. But the Biden case is troubling because all those ingredients come together in one man—along with a touch of hypocrisy. After all, this is a senator who for years has sermonized against what he says is the corrupting influence of money in politics. "




Owner59 -> RE: Letter of Amends from a Recovering Liberal (5/13/2009 12:39:03 PM)

I`m an anti-neo-con and proud of it.




ThatDamnedPanda -> RE: Letter of Amends from a Recovering Liberal (5/13/2009 12:51:32 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy Left wing or right wing. Democrat or Republican (or third party of your choice). The common theme is that all want what they percieve to be best for their country.


Oh, I'm sorry, but I totally disagree with that. The common theme is that most of them want what they think is best for themselves, and their vision for an ideal America is one which they think offers them the greatest opportunity to get that. They just wrap themselves in the largest flag they can get their hands on and say it's what's best for the country. As a group, Americans are by nature incredibly self-centered people.



quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy
For a country that values free speech to allow itself to get so....fundamentalist......well, i hope i'm not the only one to see that irony.


It starts with the sense of moral superority so common among Americans. They're not just convinced their way is the best way; they're absolutely certain it's the only way. The extension of that way of thinking is that anyone who thinks something different, or does something a different way, or says something different, is not just wrong but morally flawed.

So now it's not just a disagreement, now it's a clash of good versus evil. The opposing point of view must not only not be allowed to go unchallenged, it must not go unpunished. It  must not be tolerated. It must be defeated, for the good of the country and all that is holy. And off we go...




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