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RE: Converting to Another Religion - 2/7/2006 5:13:31 AM   
candystripper


Posts: 3486
Joined: 11/1/2005
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quote:

Amusing. That view is explicitly rejected in the Book of Job.

Lam

quote:

ORIGINAL: candystripper

E.g., God allows chaos and evil in the world so we will better appreciate good. Huh?


Will You elaborate? i'm curious.

BTW, the purple quit, but i like the pink better anyway.

candystripper

< Message edited by candystripper -- 2/7/2006 5:23:50 AM >

(in reply to Lordandmaster)
Profile   Post #: 21
RE: Converting to Another Religion - 2/7/2006 5:20:56 AM   
michaelGA


Posts: 1194
Status: offline 		since i do not follow religion, i cannot help in this matter

_____________________________

Are we having fun, yet?

(in reply to candystripper)
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RE: Converting to Another Religion - 2/7/2006 5:51:00 AM   
maybemaybenot


Posts: 2817
Joined: 9/22/2005
Status: offline 		Disclaimer: the following is not directed at the followers of any particular religion.

Prior to The Second Vatcan Council, the Roman Catholic doctrine taught that the Jews were to blame for the death of Jesus Christ. Up until 1962, part of the Good Friday Prayer included praying for the " perfidiuos Jews ". Vatican 2 changed alot of prior teachings regarding Jews for the better.

Despite this seemingly "tolerant" revalation towards Judaism, the current view under Vatican 2 is that religions other than Christianity are " gravely deficient" and are an "obstacle to salvation. Interstingly enough the Roman Catholic church believes that any church without bishops is not a Christian church, so this includes many Protestant denominations also
That is just an example of the Catholic view of Jews, I believe LaMalinche is referring to.

This veiw was and is not shared soley by Roman Catholics, there are many Christian denomination who preached anti semitism. For example: In 1994 the Luthern Church adopted DECLARATION OF THE EVANGELICAL LUTHERAN CHURCH IN AMERICA TO THE JEWISH COMMUNITY . As their leader and founder wrote a book called " Jews and their Lies". A book used by Hitler to give religous credance to the Holocaust.

Sadly just because a church changes it's official stand, it does not follow that all of it's membership changes their veiws. It also does not mean that all of it's followers accepted that veiw to begin with. But, Many " good Christians " see the Jews as " Christ killers ".

mbmbn

< Message edited by maybemaybenot -- 2/7/2006 5:52:32 AM >

(in reply to candystripper)
Profile   Post #: 23
RE: Converting to Another Religion - 2/7/2006 5:53:26 AM   
maybemaybenot


Posts: 2817
Joined: 9/22/2005
Status: offline

Disclaimer: the following is not directed at the followers of any particular religion.

Prior to The Second Vatcan Council, the Roman Catholic doctrine taught that the Jews were to blame for the death of Jesus Christ. Up until 1962, part of the Good Friday Prayer included praying for the " perfidiuos Jews ". Vatican 2 changed alot of prior teachings regarding Jews for the better.

Despite this seemingly "tolerant" revalation towards Judaism, the current view under Vatican 2 is that religions other than Christianity are " gravely deficient" and are an "obstacle to salvation. Interstingly enough the Roman Catholic church believes that any church without bishops is not a Christian church, so this includes many Protestant denominations also
That is just an example of the Catholic view of Jews, I believe LaMalinche is referring to.

This view was and is not shared soley by Roman Catholics, there are many Christian denomination who preached anti semitism. For example: In 1994 the Luthern Church adopted DECLARATION OF THE EVANGELICAL LUTHERAN CHURCH IN AMERICA TO THE JEWISH COMMUNITY . As their leader and founder wrote a book called " Jews and their Lies". A book used by Hitler to give religous credance to the Holocaust.

Sadly just because a church changes it's official stand, it does not follow that all of it's membership changes their views. It also does not mean that all of it's followers accepted that view to begin with. But, Many " good Christians " see the Jews as " Christ killers ".

mbmbn

(in reply to maybemaybenot)
Profile   Post #: 24
RE: Converting to Another Religion - 2/7/2006 6:06:49 AM   
pollux


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Joined: 7/26/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LaMalinche

Let me clear a couple of things up.



That was a beautiful post.

(in reply to LaMalinche)
Profile   Post #: 25
RE: Converting to Another Religion - 2/7/2006 7:33:38 AM   
LaMalinche


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Joined: 10/20/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: candystripper

quote:

Are you prepared to really face the catholic (yes the small "c" is intentional) Christian veiws that are held about Jews? Not just in yourself, but in others?

LaMalinche


i'm not aware of any Catholic bigotry towards Jews. i was raised by Sisters of St. Joseph, who attempted to inculcate bigotry towards Protestants. Additionally, Irish Catholics and their ilk (i am scottish) were taught to revile Italian Catholics, and vise versa. Did not take with me...my first boyfriend was Russian Orthodox.

Sadly, Y/you can easily see remnants of this here in Cleveland, where some Eastern Europeans seem to dislike each other and everyone else.

candystripper



Candy,

I was refering to the New Testament's treatment of Jews. As you read Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John, the feelings towards Jews becomes increasingly negative. This is why I used the small "c", in order to conotate universality, instead of a large "C", which would connotate a specific group. Also phrases such as, "Jew you/me down" come to mind. I am not accusing you or anyone else of bigotry, it was more of an awareness issue.

I remember an incident where I was talking with a friend and they were telling me about a sale and said that the buyer had tried to "Jew them down", it recieved a brook trout (think wide eyes, gaping mouth, of a fish out of water) from me and the reply, "You did not just say that to me." My friend really did not understand where my startlement came from. They intended no insult, nor prejudice, to them it was just a saying.

The point is that I want you to go into this using the Boy Scout motto: "Be Prepared."

We live in a society where it is not PC to have prejudices. Yet we all have them, it is merely important to know which ones that we have.

Again, best of luck, and let me know if their is anything that I can help with.

Best,

LaMalinche


(in reply to candystripper)
Profile   Post #: 26
RE: Converting to Another Religion - 2/7/2006 7:38:08 AM   
LaMalinche


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Joined: 10/20/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: pollux

quote:

ORIGINAL: LaMalinche

Let me clear a couple of things up.



That was a beautiful post.


Well, thank you Pollux.

I was not trying for beauty, merely some information for Riotgirl. She hasn't said whether or not she wants to celebrate Purim with me, but you are invited also. So is Candy and anyone else who would like to.

Best,

LaMalinche

< Message edited by LaMalinche -- 2/7/2006 7:43:57 AM >

(in reply to pollux)
Profile   Post #: 27
RE: Converting to Another Religion - 2/7/2006 11:13:48 AM   
candystripper


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quote:

Sadly just because a church changes it's official stand, it does not follow that all of it's membership changes their veiws. It also does not mean that all of it's followers accepted that veiw to begin with. But, Many " good Christians " see the Jews as " Christ killers ".

mbmbn


IMO, anti-semitism is a mortal sin, just as any other form of bigotry. Having said that, i have no paticular concern about it in choosing to convert; bigots are a fact of life. One knows it is wrong to commit mass murder in order to acquire a Picasso.

As for the conduct of the Catholic Church described by mbmn, why am i not surprised? The Pope allowed Italian Jews to be sent to death camps to prevent pillaging of the Vatican....as if the Pieta were worth a single human life.

candystripper

< Message edited by candystripper -- 2/7/2006 12:00:24 PM >

(in reply to maybemaybenot)
Profile   Post #: 28
RE: Converting to Another Religion - 2/7/2006 11:50:59 AM   
candystripper


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Joined: 11/1/2005
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quote:

I remember an incident where I was talking with a friend and they were telling me about a sale and said that the buyer had tried to "Jew them down", it recieved a brook trout (think wide eyes, gaping mouth, of a fish out of water) from me and the reply, "You did not just say that to me." My friend really did not understand where my startlement came from. They intended no insult, nor prejudice, to them it was just a saying.

LaMalinche


What restraint. i go all buggy on people who use racial/ethnic/sexual/etc. slurs. i have been known to cross a bar to the pool tables to demand to know who used the "N" word. They may beat me, but i can still do some damage.

BTW, some people hate Catholics, and i've experienced that and other forms of discrimination. i say we punch their lights out, legally of course.

candystripper

(in reply to LaMalinche)
Profile   Post #: 29
RE: Converting to Another Religion - 2/7/2006 3:51:01 PM   
IronBear


Posts: 9008
Joined: 6/19/2005
From: Beenleigh, Qld, Australia
Status: offline 		From my part candy, the sadest thing the Catholic Church did was to get rid of the Mass in latin and even bann Priests from doing it. I can still find the odd Mass in Latin to take a group of Pagan trainees so they can experience the best example of Ceremonial Magick available to the public.

_____________________________

Iron Bear

Master of Bruin Cottage

http://www.bruincottage.org

Your attitude, words & actions are yours. Take responsibility for them and the consequences they incur.

D.I.L.L.I.G.A.F.

(in reply to candystripper)
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RE: Converting to Another Religion - 2/7/2006 4:10:14 PM   
Mercnbeth


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quote:

the sadest thing the Catholic Church did was to get rid of the Mass in latin and even bann Priests from doing it.


IB,
They banned a latin mass? Not that I get the "Weekly Monitor" anymore, but I didn't hear that. In fact, about a year ago we met someone who said there was a small church that was part of a nuns retreat in our area that had a latin mass every Sunday. We met a woman who claimed to be an ex-nun in Hennessey's in Redondo Beach one afternoon, and somehow got on the subject of the "one true religion", Vatican II, and the current state of the US church which she referred to as "catholic-lite".

As an 'old school" alter boy I still remember some of the old words and chants. Just to freak out beth, I sometimes lay an "In nomine Patris, et Filii, et Spiritus Sancti" on her. Or ask her if she knows the phone number for heaven - "Et cum spiritu tuo." Ah - alter boy humor!

-Wondering if I spell better in Latin than I do in English? Most likely, because my Latin teacher would have punched me in the head! Well, in case I did; "mea culpa, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa"!

(in reply to IronBear)
Profile   Post #: 31
RE: Converting to Another Religion - 2/7/2006 4:13:07 PM   
candystripper


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Joined: 11/1/2005
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quote:

From my part candy, the sadest thing the Catholic Church did was to get rid of the Mass in latin and even bann Priests from doing it. I can still find the odd Mass in Latin to take a group of Pagan trainees so they can experience the best example of Ceremonial Magick available to the public.

Iron Bear


Yea, i agree. Apparently there is a sect of mystical Catholics who still hold latin Masses in violation of the Pope's edict.

And i can diagram a sentence like a wizard, LOL.

candystripper

< Message edited by candystripper -- 2/7/2006 4:14:52 PM >

(in reply to IronBear)
Profile   Post #: 32
RE: Converting to Another Religion - 2/7/2006 4:20:19 PM   
Mercnbeth


Posts: 11766
Status: offline 		Well, there seem to be quite a few Latin masses held in the US. Here's a link providing locations, some outside the US:
http://www.unavoce.org/links.htm

(in reply to IronBear)
Profile   Post #: 33
RE: Converting to Another Religion - 2/7/2006 4:32:13 PM   
IronBear


Posts: 9008
Joined: 6/19/2005
From: Beenleigh, Qld, Australia
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

Well, there seem to be quite a few Latin masses held in the US. Here's a link providing locations, some outside the US:
http://www.unavoce.org/links.htm


Thanks Mate,

I'll pass this on to a number of friends. The really was a aura when it was done in latin wasn't there?

_____________________________

Iron Bear

Master of Bruin Cottage

http://www.bruincottage.org

Your attitude, words & actions are yours. Take responsibility for them and the consequences they incur.

D.I.L.L.I.G.A.F.

(in reply to Mercnbeth)
Profile   Post #: 34
RE: Converting to Another Religion - 2/7/2006 4:47:47 PM   
Mercnbeth


Posts: 11766
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quote:

The really was a aura when it was done in latin wasn't there?


Can't say what was more "innocent" the times or me. But my memory of those times is that the mystery of the words and the ceremony in an ancient tongue was a part of the "faith" process. It was hard to point to the hypocrisy when the precise meaning of the words couldn't be determined or debated in a common tongue.

Based upon my short research into the subject as a result of your post, it seems that there is a desire to return to those times of faith. People want their god to be a little less common. It may partially explain the popularity of ancient religions and archaic rituals spoken in an arcane tongue.

What I really want to know from you is, was my latin close?

(in reply to IronBear)
Profile   Post #: 35
RE: Converting to Another Religion - 2/7/2006 4:54:24 PM   
candystripper


Posts: 3486
Joined: 11/1/2005
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quote:

But then again I'm also a cabalist which is the study of the cabbala or the mystical translation of the Old Testiment.

IronBear


Which book ought i start with? i like this cabbala idea.

A downloadable digital copy is only $6 at Amazon; anyone ever tried to read such a "book"? How is it done? Is it legible?

candystripper

< Message edited by candystripper -- 2/7/2006 5:01:41 PM >

(in reply to IronBear)
Profile   Post #: 36
RE: Converting to Another Religion - 2/7/2006 5:06:07 PM   
LaMalinche


Posts: 2077
Joined: 10/20/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: candystripper

quote:

I remember an incident where I was talking with a friend and they were telling me about a sale and said that the buyer had tried to "Jew them down", it recieved a brook trout (think wide eyes, gaping mouth, of a fish out of water) from me and the reply, "You did not just say that to me." My friend really did not understand where my startlement came from. They intended no insult, nor prejudice, to them it was just a saying.

LaMalinche


What restraint. i go all buggy on people who use racial/ethnic/sexual/etc. slurs. i have been known to cross a bar to the pool tables to demand to know who used the "N" word. They may beat me, but i can still do some damage.

BTW, some people hate Catholics, and i've experienced that and other forms of discrimination. i say we punch their lights out, legally of course.

candystripper


While I in general approve of beating up people, but in these cases I really just try to make them understand what they are saying. Enough education and perhaps the crap will stop. *snort*

Best,

LaMalinche

(in reply to candystripper)
Profile   Post #: 37
RE: Converting to Another Religion - 2/7/2006 5:15:18 PM   
IronBear


Posts: 9008
Joined: 6/19/2005
From: Beenleigh, Qld, Australia
Status: offline
quote:

"mea culpa, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa"!


I can't fault that.

Or as I'm want to say "Domini copulate vobiscum" (May the Gods of copulating be with you) The grammar is probably incorrect but it is close I'm a thinking and the meaning is clear.

_____________________________

Iron Bear

Master of Bruin Cottage

http://www.bruincottage.org

Your attitude, words & actions are yours. Take responsibility for them and the consequences they incur.

D.I.L.L.I.G.A.F.

(in reply to Mercnbeth)
Profile   Post #: 38
RE: Converting to Another Religion - 2/7/2006 5:26:25 PM   
IronBear


Posts: 9008
Joined: 6/19/2005
From: Beenleigh, Qld, Australia
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: candystripper



Which book ought i start with? i like this cabbala idea.

A downloadable digital copy is only $6 at Amazon; anyone ever tried to read such a "book"? How is it done? Is it legible?

candystripper


Sweetheart, sort your conversion out first and later if you have a fasination of the cabala you may find someone in the synagog who can take you in hand, for it is a mystical study of the faith. However for folks like me it has a wider usage within the Arts Magickal and especially in the study of hermetic magicks and in particular the study of the angelic and arch angelic forces as well as our place within the system and the divinity of man. If you rememer your history of Christ you will remember he spaent time in a village on the dead sea with the Esseans ( spelling is incorrect I think but I'm rushed at the moment) Anyway the Esseans were/are a Jewish sect who study the cabala. So in effect Christ was also trained as a cabalist. The cabalist is/was in effect the jewish mages even though many may deny this. I was lucky in having several libral rabbis fill me in on many such areas just as having a close friend, the late Arch Bishop of the RC Church in Perth WA boosted my latin and help me discect the Mass .. We all shared knowledge and learned from each other..

_____________________________

Iron Bear

Master of Bruin Cottage

http://www.bruincottage.org

Your attitude, words & actions are yours. Take responsibility for them and the consequences they incur.

D.I.L.L.I.G.A.F.

(in reply to candystripper)
Profile   Post #: 39
RE: Converting to Another Religion - 2/7/2006 6:30:08 PM   
maybemaybenot


Posts: 2817
Joined: 9/22/2005
Status: offline 		Candy,

here is a good link on Kabbalah


http://www.digital-brilliance.com/kab/faq.htm#WhatisKabbalah

mbmbn

(in reply to IronBear)
Profile   Post #: 40
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