Reward Versus Punishment (Full Version)

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DemonKia -> Reward Versus Punishment (5/19/2009 8:01:01 PM)

I get the punishment thing as role play, but I don't get it as a useful relationship tool . .. . .

This topic has been rumbling about my psyche the last coupla years in which I've been perusing kinkster profiles, this paradigm of the reward versus the punishment . . . . .

Most of my experience in this comes from being a parent; I found punishment to be of the most limited utility, with a very high price tag in terms of how destructive it was to the relationship. Basically, what worked was rewarding the stuff I wanted / liked, ignoring the low-level stuff that bothered me, & doing what I could to structure natural & / or logical consequences for all behaviors . . . . .

For instance: lying to me. I have a really good memory, & they would hear about how the trust was impaired for long after they wanted it behind them, & I would patiently point out the logic chain to them, over & over, every time they wanted my trust extended . . . . lol . . . . . (Luckily, I figured out early to preface most uncomfortable discussions with, yes, I'm a big mean bitch . . . . . . . You'd be amazed what a defuser that was / is . .. . . )

I also tend to get better results in my life by putting my energies into the positive outcomes I desire, as opposed to draining my time & effort into all the many things I dislike, find annoying, reprehensible, & so on . . . . . If that makes sense to you, dear reader . . .. .

So when I read thru profiles, I'm kinda repulsed by the emphasis on punishing, on finding & correcting mistakes, of seemingly focusing on figuring out how a potential bottom or s-type is going to misbehave . .. . .

& all of this complicated by the masochism factor, where pain is a reward . . . ..

How do rewards & punishment work in your relationship?

I look forward to hearing your responses . . .. . .



MissJanice2 -> RE: Reward Versus Punishment (5/19/2009 8:11:31 PM)

What don't you get about it?   The relationship in a D/s, M/s situation is about one in control, and one in submission.   That is probably what you are not realizing.
The one in control is the one who initates the reward of punishment when deserved or not deserved.


Best Wishes,
 
Mistress_Jan



leadership527 -> RE: Reward Versus Punishment (5/19/2009 8:12:54 PM)

Hello DemonKia:

Great post.

I can tell you that for Carol and I, we don't have the whole, disobey -> get punished -> obey loop. Carol skips right to the chase and just obeys. And, frankly, there is no punishment that I would bother with if she disobeyed. As I have said to her, "You are either mine or you are not. If you are mine, then you obey me. If not, then I have no business punishing you." At that point, the collar'd come off and we'd have to discuss what sort of relationship we would have going forward. But whatever it is, it is clearly not my definition of Master/slave.

So for us, at least, it just isn't a part of our dynamic and we find no particular gap that it might fill for us.

I am, however, very interested in hearing other's responses to this.



missturbation -> RE: Reward Versus Punishment (5/19/2009 8:21:02 PM)

quote:

& all of this complicated by the masochism factor, where pain is a reward . . . ..

 
I'm a masochist and i adore the shit beaten out of me for reward or 'play'. Blargh hate that word, i don't play at this. Digress, digress, back to the point!! I absolutely abhor, do not enjoy any form of punishment. The 'play' and the punishment beatings are two totally different entities for me with whole different sets of emotions, feelings behind them.



catize -> RE: Reward Versus Punishment (5/19/2009 9:31:45 PM)

I don’t understand it either despite the fact it seems to work in some relationships.  The concept that anyone should/could be perfect and all mistakes (by submissive persons) merit formal chastisement is an issue I can’t be objective about.   
 I’ve said it before; there are way too many instances of anticipatory glee when it comes to planning ahead for those mistakes.



breatheasone -> RE: Reward Versus Punishment (5/19/2009 9:47:07 PM)

i personally couldn't thrive if i was in a relationship where my collar could be taken away if i disobey just once. i would be so worried about losing my "master" that i wouldn't be able to relax into the relationship and grow...i would be "on guard" all the time...for me that just would not be healthy.



LafayetteLady -> RE: Reward Versus Punishment (5/19/2009 10:24:17 PM)

Great thought DemonKia.  I guess it is the whole "different strokes" thing rearing its ugly head.   I'm a grown woman who has been taking care of myself for a long time without help.  From what I have seen, it seems that some have things they want to change about themselves and are looking for someone that will help them institute those changes through a punishment/reward kind of system.  For me it kind of is part and parcel with the idea of someone telling me they are going to "train" me to please them.  My take tends to be that if I'm not pleasing to you from the start, why are we here?  But then again, I like who I am and I'm not really looking for someone to change that.  I will be watching to see what others say.  Maybe they will shed some light on the idea.



DesFIP -> RE: Reward Versus Punishment (5/20/2009 3:55:50 AM)

Punishment doesn't work for me. Anytime it could have been used we have used communication instead and discovered that there was a misunderstanding. And I would not accept being punished for him not being clear enough about what he wanted, or not hearing me correctly, or interpreting what I said differently from what I meant. In all of these situations, no matter which of us didn't make ourselves clear, the disobedience if you can so call it was a result of not understanding.

If I have a problem, I talk to him about it.

Now I am a parent also and never used punishment with my daughter. However my son is in his mid/older teens and with him it's different. He needs to know there are stricter consequences than just my disappointment. For him there is grounding, loss of cell phone, removal of XBox. Most of my friends seem to have the same experience. That boys need it more than girls.

I'm wondering then if most male doms are so swift to punish simply because they know they need it, and not because they are looking at their female subs and seeing if the women do?



oceanwinds -> RE: Reward Versus Punishment (5/20/2009 4:10:36 AM)

My opinions..smiles. If punishment is something given on a regular bases, it would be an useless tool. It would also indicate for me, that They feel i am not good enough for them.  In my opinion it cannot bring to me a healthy sense of being. One who feels the need for constant punishment would not wish for me to serve them anyways, because all my walls would go up, and the door shut, if i hadnt walked by then.

With Sir i can count on one hand how many times punishment has been applied in 3 years,and still have a couple fingers left, so if it comes about there is a strong meaning to it.

Reward is something to be earned and i dont have enough fingers or toes to count how many of those i received.



whimzgirl -> RE: Reward Versus Punishment (5/20/2009 4:44:41 AM)

Ma'a m,

I will take a stab at trying to explain how it works in my relationship.  I tend to be a little wordy so if you need a drink before I start, let me know and I'll go fetch that for you.  [;)]

My Master has only had to dole out a punishment a couple times.  Both times occurred because I stepped out of line and I was warned repeatedly to get back in line.  There have been other times I have done things that deserved punishment but He could see that I was already punishing myself more than He ever could.  I do not like the punishments at all but My Master has been quite fair about them and is not a sadist.  He makes sure I understand the reason behind them and carries them out safely.  The punishments impress upon me the rules and I need rules in order to function.  My Master knows this about me and actually the punishments were probably harder on Him to dole out than on me to receive.

The few times he had to resort to this type of interaction with me have truly been instances when no other method would have worked.  He needed to exert His dominance and I needed my submission validated.  I think that if He handed out punishment over mere trifles, they would lose their impact and I would begin to resent Him.  Once He tells me that the punishment will occur He must follow through.  To do less would undermine His authority with me.  I believe I would actually lose some trust in His word.  If He can't follow through with what He tells me on this subject, How can I trust Him to follow through with anything He tells me.  I must be able to trust that He will do what He says He will.  I've been in a bad relationship before where the man never followed through with anything he promised me and it did nothing but beat me down to the point where what he said would go in one ear and out the other.  I lost all trust in his ability to be a man of honor and integrity.  I do not have those worries with My Master.  I know He means what He says and it gives me a sense of safety and security.

I would like to think I am very intuned to His needs and when I fail to think ahead to satisfy them I am very hard on myself.  This inclination I have to self punish is something that My Master is well aware of and actually has to rein in from time to time.  I am a masochist and pain tends to focus me quickly.  He does use pain during intense play both to arouse me and to focus me back.  However, this pain is quite different than the pain I feel when receiving a punishment.  I truly believe that punishment and pain can both be useful in a relationship but they must be used correctly.  Correctly depends entirely on how it motivates your sub/slave so I don't think you can have a one-stop answer on whether to use it or not.  Everyone is different and everyone requires different treatment.  For this particular slave I need to know that there will be punishment when required and that I will be given that pleasureable pain when I need it in order to focus or want it just because I kink that direction.  It all goes back to My Master knowing what makes me tick and continuing to wind me up when necessary.

I hope this answered your question sufficiently.

Respectfully,

gabby



IrishMist -> RE: Reward Versus Punishment (5/20/2009 4:46:49 AM)

quote:

I get the punishment thing as role play, but I don't get it as a useful relationship tool . .. . .

Accepting consequences for actions; punishment; corrective behavior...it really does not matter what you call it, it all serves a very useful purpose.
Correcting behavior that is unacceptable.

It really does not matter what form the corrective measures take; in the end, it all serves a useful purpose.



RCdc -> RE: Reward Versus Punishment (5/20/2009 5:22:45 AM)

Punishment is enjoyable in our relationship and isn't used as a correction tool.   I obey and that's all there is to it.  That doesn't mean perfection, it means that an understanding exists where sometimes I will fuck up.  And sometimes, as Darcy says, he fucks up, so Master doesn't play that game.  No one expects a dominant to take punishment so why expect a submissive to make mistakes that need punishing?
 
As an agreement that both parties already have agreed to, fine and dandy.  But I don't need to misbehave or fuck up to receive discipline.  I simply have to make a request.
 
the.dark.



DesFIP -> RE: Reward Versus Punishment (5/20/2009 5:30:39 AM)

We've discussed punishment but nobody has mentioned rewards. Honestly, I don't like them. I don't want a relationship where it's "if you do this wrong, you'll be punished but if you do it right you'll be rewarded". I do things for him because I love him and want him to be happy. I need a relationship where my partner feels the same, where he feels like doing things for me simply because he enjoys making me happy. I don't want to feel like a dog in training, walk at the side and receive a treat. Don't do it and get yanked back.

I don't want a tit for tat relationship because I'm never going to do everything right, which means I would always be aware that another punishment would be looming as the consequence of me being human and thus faulty. And I also don't want to have to do tricks to get a piece of fish like dolphins. Because if I didn't care about the reward, then I wouldn't perform.



BitaTruble -> RE: Reward Versus Punishment (5/20/2009 5:48:05 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DemonKia

How do rewards & punishment work in your relationship?



There are only two things that I would get punished for - one would be if I set about to disobey on purpose (rather than as a reaction ::touches stab wound::) .. that would, most likely, get me kicked to the curb. The other thing is my secondary function which is to make his life easier. If some action of mine makes his life harder, then he will punish me usually by taken something away so as to give me time to reflect on that action rather than doing what I generally do with that time. That's very effective for me rare though it may be. Yes, I'm just that good. [:D]

Rewards, we don't really do other than he'll tell me that I've been a good girl or something. I don't really equate that to being a reward as he's just expressing his opinion about a particular circumstance. That doesn't mean I don't like hearing it.. I just don't think of it as a reward. Other than that, to me at least, a reward is something given for going above and beyond the call of duty. My mental state is such that there is no such thing as going above and beyond the call of duty for me as his slave.  I do get little presents on occasion just because he feels like giving them to me. The last one was a vibrating cock ring. ::chuckles:: He 'thought' it was one of those little finger vibrators but the language barrier has not been fully broken yet, so it was what it was! [8D] It was funny, because when he handed it to me I said.. I don't think this is what you think it is. ::laughs::



breatheasone -> RE: Reward Versus Punishment (5/20/2009 6:06:39 AM)

i've been thinking about this, and for me Master and i just have a relationship...We both edify each other, We both have disappointed each other. But We have grown together through it. blame isn't a big issue, and rewards aren't a big issue.... We have each other AND great communication and respect for each other....THATS the bigger issue(for me)



agirl -> RE: Reward Versus Punishment (5/20/2009 6:10:21 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DemonKia


How do rewards & punishment work in your relationship?




In my relationship there are consequences if I deliberately do something I KNOW that I shouldn't. They aren't sprung on me, I already know what they are. There's no mystery and no wondering. They are penalties.

It depends entirely on the person. I've been with M for years and still *break the rules* sometimes because I want to do what I want to do at the time. There are very few rules, all there for good reasons and for MY benefit and that I agree with.

I've NEVER been punished for making mistakes or for fuck-ups and I've never *disappointed* him.

I don't quite get the *reward* thing and it would be wasted on me. I know what I ought to do, I know what makes life all sunshiny, I don't need to be rewarded for doing things that make my life great.

It's a case of knowing your victim.....It's a simple cause and effect system that involves no rows, no bad feelings and no disappointment. It's not bogged down in the whys and wherefores of why I'm owned or in whether I'm uberly well-behaved and it's certainly not attached to my collar.

If I flout a rule we've both agreed on, I take my licks and we move on.

agirl









DomImus -> RE: Reward Versus Punishment (5/20/2009 6:12:45 AM)

We do not have a punishment dynamic in our relationship but there has been a time or two where circumstances warranted a punishment. The key to punishment is to make it punishing. That way it will serve its purpose. The more commonplace punishment thing seems to be pretty popular and people seem to enjoy it and I am never repulsed by people who are enjoying themselves.



RCdc -> RE: Reward Versus Punishment (5/20/2009 6:13:25 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: breatheasone

i've been thinking about this, and for me Master and i just have a relationship...We both edify each other, We both have disappointed each other. But We have grown together through it. blame isn't a big issue, and rewards aren't a big issue.... We have each other AND great communication and respect for each other....THATS the bigger issue(for me)


I love that word - 'edify'.  It's such an underused word IMO.  And to a synaesthesic, tastes like chocolate.[:)]
I believe it would rock if more people edified their relationships just in general.
 
the.dark.



catize -> RE: Reward Versus Punishment (5/20/2009 6:24:09 AM)

quote:

 I don't want a tit for tat relationship 


It is rewarding in its self to have a relationship that I am happy to be in.   Neither R. or S. have to say anything, they don’t have to praise me; their actions and smiles, the fact they continue to want to be in my life tells me they are pleased.  I do appreciate the occasional compliment; it feels nice, but overall, I know what we have is good; and that is good enough!



Missokyst -> RE: Reward Versus Punishment (5/20/2009 6:26:09 AM)

Growing up I was never punished, likely because I was never caught.  But dang.. I think it might have been nicer for punishment on a single incident, rather than feeling the weight of responsibility to be the example of "good", every day of my life.  As the youngest, it was like I was the last chance to show what a fine example of parenthood had produced.  Guilt is a terrible legacy to leave.  I am not responsible for anyone else's reputation. 
I can see punishment in a ds relationship if I had that sort of littlegirl/daddy dynamic. For some things, like cutting, I don't see a viable reward, but I did stop for many years because of a punishment.
Most times though I am amazed at the mentality of bratting and rewarding that with punishment.  I did enough guilt in my life, I don't need to feel responsible for someone else's reputation. 
Kyst



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