RE: Bible bill in U.S. Congress (Full Version)

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rulemylife -> RE: Bible bill in U.S. Congress (5/22/2009 2:32:22 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: CruelNUnsual

You are the one that is wrong. We DID base our democracy on Judaeo-Christian principles since it is primarily derived from British  "common law" which in turn was based on those principles.


English common law is based on the principle of precedent, or common knowledge, common sense, as opposed to codified law.

It has absolutely nothing to do with any religious principles other than what might naturally come forth from a person holding a particular religious view.




CruelNUnsual -> RE: Bible bill in U.S. Congress (5/22/2009 2:33:26 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Cagey18

quote:

ORIGINAL: CruelNUnsual

quote:

ORIGINAL: Cagey18

quote:

ORIGINAL: lronitulstahp

"Separation of church and state" isn't something that can be "violated" actually. It's not a Constitutional law...

Actually it is part of Constitutional law, once it is interpreted so by the Supreme Court.   Which it did, first in 1878,[/link] and then in a series of cases starting in 1948:
[link=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Separation_of_church_and_state]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Separation_of_church_and_state




If youre going to be a nit I'll be more of a nit. It is not part of Constitutional law since SCOTUS interpretations do not require amendments to be reversed. Anything that can be changed by 9 justices "on a whim" is not part of the law. The law is what it says in plain English.

Wow, the Supreme Court Justices change things on a "whim" now?  News to me.  And to them, I'm sure. [8|]

Sadly for your argument, SCOTUS precedents do indeed have the force of law.  Hence the reason SC cases are cited repeatedly in lower courts, and often in SC rulings themselves.  (You have heard of SC rulings being cited thus, yes?)



You did notice that "on a whim" was in quotes?

Force of law != "part of the Constitution".  stare decisis is a guiding principle, not a law.




Cagey18 -> RE: Bible bill in U.S. Congress (5/22/2009 2:40:13 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: CruelNUnsual

Force of law != "part of the Constitution".  stare decisis is a guiding principle, not a law.

Tomayto, tomahto.  Any judge who ignores this Constitutional precedent (or other SCOTUS rulings) does so at his/her own peril, and will lose upon appeal--just as they would ignoring the Constitution itself.





philosophy -> RE: Bible bill in U.S. Congress (5/22/2009 2:41:58 PM)

FR

...if, apparently, the US is based on British law, then i'm going to call it a Shakespearean Nation.




Musicmystery -> RE: Bible bill in U.S. Congress (5/22/2009 2:50:53 PM)

quote:

How can you possibly discuss legal/Constitutional issues without discussing the cultural heritage such things arise from?


OK Marc. Let's see court cases where the courts turned not to the laws, but to cultural heritage.






Musicmystery -> RE: Bible bill in U.S. Congress (5/22/2009 2:53:02 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

quote:

ORIGINAL: CruelNUnsual

You are the one that is wrong. We DID base our democracy on Judaeo-Christian principles since it is primarily derived from British  "common law" which in turn was based on those principles.


English common law is based on the principle of precedent, or common knowledge, common sense, as opposed to codified law.

It has absolutely nothing to do with any religious principles other than what might naturally come forth from a person holding a particular religious view.


What rule said.

Otherwise, we may as well admit that essentially the U.S. was founded as a Druid nation.

Or, since since we're a democracy, an Athenian nation.

Pagan in either case. Not logical? Of course not. And neither is the Christian foundation claim.

Now, that we are predominantly a Christian nation, true and obvious. But it's neither a legal nor a Constitutional foundation.





Vendaval -> RE: Bible bill in U.S. Congress (5/22/2009 3:01:34 PM)

    [sm=book.gif]      There went the ice water!    [sm=biggrin.gif]



quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterG2kTR
They should change to the "YEAR OF THE DICTIONARY" so they know what the hell they are actually talking about.




Vendaval -> RE: Bible bill in U.S. Congress (5/22/2009 3:09:13 PM)

You raise a very important point as per usual, dcnovice.
 
I would like to note that monotheism is the default model of worship in the West and most of the Middle East but that other religions and lack thereof are contained within various cultures and nations.




quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

<fast reply>

It might be helpful to distinguish the descriptive statement that the U.S. is demographically a largely Christian nation from the prescriptive view that our polity should be explicitly rooted in Christian teachings.




popeye1250 -> RE: Bible bill in U.S. Congress (5/22/2009 3:36:08 PM)

And it's "under God" not "under the bible." The founding fathers were of more than one "religion".I can't see doing this kind of foolishness when our border with Mexico is wide open.
Does anyone know if this congressman is aware of that situation?




CruelNUnsual -> RE: Bible bill in U.S. Congress (5/22/2009 3:52:48 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy

FR

...if, apparently, the US is based on British law, then i'm going to call it a Shakespearean Nation.


alas, even poor Yorick wouldn't want to take blame for this mess!




MarsBonfire -> RE: Bible bill in U.S. Congress (5/22/2009 4:07:01 PM)

With the next year, in the interest of equal time, be declared "Year of the Necronomicon?"




Marc2b -> RE: Bible bill in U.S. Congress (5/22/2009 4:16:49 PM)

quote:

Pretty easily, actually.  The Supreme Court does it all the time.


We're not the Supreme Court, are we?

And do you really think that the Supreme Court members just popped out of the vacuum with no cultural heritage to color their outlook?




Cagey18 -> RE: Bible bill in U.S. Congress (5/22/2009 4:50:43 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Marc2b

quote:

Pretty easily, actually.  The Supreme Court does it all the time.


We're not the Supreme Court, are we?

Who gives a shit?  You honestly can't see the larger point I'm making?

quote:


And do you really think that the Supreme Court members just popped out of the vacuum with no cultural heritage to color their outlook?


Just because someone grew up in a society with lots of Christians, doesn't mean that same person can't look at a legal issue independent of that background.  Especially when the Constitution specifically leaves out Christianity.

(whether they're members of the Supreme Court or not, btw)




Crush -> RE: Bible bill in U.S. Congress (5/22/2009 4:59:39 PM)

OK,
Let's go with all the stereotypes:
  • Christianity: 2.1 billion
  • Islam: 1.5 billion
  • Secular/Nonreligious/Agnostic/Atheist: 1.1 billion
  • Hinduism: 900 million
  • Chinese traditional religion: 394 million
  • Buddhism: 376 million
  • primal-indigenous: 300 million
  • African Traditional & Diasporic: 100 million
  • Sikhism: 23 million
  • Juche: 19 million
  • Spiritism: 15 million
  • Judaism: 14 million
  • Baha'i: 7 million
  • Jainism: 4.2 million
  • Shinto: 4 million
  • Cao Dai: 4 million
  • Zoroastrianism: 2.6 million
  • Tenrikyo: 2 million
  • Neo-Paganism: 1 million
  • Unitarian-Universalism: 800 thousand
  • Rastafarianism: 600 thousand
  • Scientology: 500 thousand
    That covers 22 years for "Year of the Book"
    ...now, for all the sub-cults, those not mentioned, we do have 22 years to get those on the list.





  • cadenas -> RE: Bible bill in U.S. Congress (5/22/2009 6:11:41 PM)

    quote:

    ORIGINAL: Marc2b
    But the people passing the laws and running the courts have cultural heritages that influence how they think such things should be done.  For example, are divorce laws the same in Muslim nations as they are in the United States?  If not, why not?  


    Because in the 1970s we decided that divorce should be allowed the way it is today.

    You are aware that our divorce laws are in direct conflict with the teachings of many, if not most, of the major Christian churches? Such as, for instance, the Catholic Church?

    And you are aware that in truly Christian nations - that is, countries that allow direct influence from the Church on politics - divorce (and your earlier example, abortion) is still illegal? Ireland, for instance.





    OrionTheWolf -> RE: Bible bill in U.S. Congress (5/22/2009 6:18:41 PM)

    Yes.

    Your statement still does not negate mine, or show that the logic of the original post I commented on, really does not apply to the constitutionality of this law.

    So when can I expect the diagram?

    quote:

    ORIGINAL: CruelNUnsual

    Being a Human Nation doesnt preclude it from being a Christian Nation. Christianity is a subset of human principles, not all of which are the same.
    Need a Venn diagram?




    Marc2b -> RE: Bible bill in U.S. Congress (5/22/2009 6:39:13 PM)

    quote:

    OK Marc. Let's see court cases where the courts turned not to the laws, but to cultural heritage.


    And what will those laws be based upon?  You are missing the point entirely.  I will attempt to explain it to you (and others).

    Let us suppose that science discovers a means of traveling faster than light and in a few short years humanity is building spaceships than can travel between the stars quickly.  Let us further suppose that in short order humanity discovers numerous Earth like planets (The right amount of gravity, plenty of water and air, mountains, forests, animals, etc. – but with no other intelligent species living on them), dozens of new worlds ripe for colonization.  It is not long before many humans begin to leave earth for these greener pastures – for all the varied reasons people emigrate.  One such reason of course is to live in a society that reflects the values you hold.  Let us now look at two such groups of colonists:

    A group of Rastafarians.

    A group of Atheists.

    Both of these groups colonize a separate planet – a whole world to call there own.  Both groups, after arriving, sets up a government based upon democratic principles.  There is a legislature made up of elected representatives.  There is an executive, also elected, and a court system appointed by the executive and confirmed by the legislature.  There is also a bill of rights guaranteeing freedom of speech, religion (would the Atheists even bother? – lets suppose that they do so anyway, just to cover all the bases), etc.

    Now let us consider some legislation that will come before these legislators.

    Should marijuana be legal?  The Atheists conclude that Marijuana clearly has harmful effects upon people.  Since nobody amongst them is religious it is clearly not a religious issue.  They vote to make Marijuana illegal.  What about the Rastafarians?  Yes, they know that marijuana has harmful effects upon people but clearly it is also part of their religion, so they make it legal.

    Five hundred years go by.  The population of both worlds has expanded from both the natural birthrate and new immigration.  With so many more people come new ideas – and new religions.

    On the Rastafarian world legislation is introduced to make Marijuana illegal since its obvious detrimental effect on people are clearly a matter of concern for the government – or so some think it should be.  What will be the precedents they look back upon to make their decision be?  Since marijuana is part of the religious ceremonies of most Rastafarians (and there is a long history of marijuana use in respect to religion) they will likely argue that it is obviously a matter of religious freedom and therefore any legislation banning marijuana is unconstitutional.

    On Atheist world legislation is introduced to legalize marijuana.  Not everyone on Atheist world is an atheist anymore and some believe smoking marijuana is a matter of personal choice based upon religious freedom.  When their court meets to decide whether or not the new legislation is Constitutional what will be the precedents be?  Clearly it is not a religious issue – no religion they know of (except this small cult that has recently sprung up on their world) considers marijuana to be a part of their religion.  The very idea is laughable.  Also, it is obvious to them that Marijuana has negative effects on the users and the government certainly has the duty to protect people from harmful substances.  Yes, it is obvious that it is not unconstitutional to ban marijuana.




    Marc2b -> RE: Bible bill in U.S. Congress (5/22/2009 7:05:42 PM)

    quote:

    Who gives a shit?  You honestly can't see the larger point I'm making?


    I do.  To discuss the Supreme Court without discussing the cultural/religious heritage that the Supreme Court – as well as the members of that court – was/were formed in, makes no sense.  It is like discussing planetary motion without discussing gravity.

    quote:

    Just because someone grew up in a society with lots of Christians, doesn't mean that same person can't look at a legal issue independent of that background.  Especially when the Constitution specifically leaves out Christianity.

    (whether they're members of the Supreme Court or not, btw)


    Let us return to Rastafarian world in the year 500 S.C. (Since the Colonization).

    The legislature, citing public health concerns has just banned the use of marijuana.  The new law has been challenged on the basis that is violates the Rastafarian Constitution’s guarantee of freedom of religion.

    One of the Rastafarian Supreme Court Justices is a fella named Cagey.  A descendent of later colonists he is not a Rastafarian in the religious sense – in fact, he is an atheist.  He ponders the new law.  Clearly, he thinks to himself, the government has the duty to look after the public health.  In fact, he is opposed to the smoking of marijuana for that very reason.  Yes, he thinks to himself, smoking marijuana is stupid.  But he prides himself on his independent spirit.  He will not permit himself to be swayed by his own personal beliefs in this matter.  Instead he looks at the precedents.  Doing so, he sees the long history of marijuana smoking on Rastafarian world and its strong ties to the religion that dominated the society at its founding.  So, he independently concludes that that to ban Marijuana smoking will be a violation of the Constitution and votes the same.

    I fail to see why people are having a difficult time with the distinction I am drawing.  Yes, the United States was not officially formed as a Christian nation.  BUT, the people who founded the nation – and I don’t just mean the people at the top but the society as a whole – were, by and large, Christian.  It colored their world view, it infused their opinions and their “facts.”  Subsequently it played a large – perhaps even huge – role in the shaping of the society, it’s laws and (eventually) the precedents.  Acknowledging such does not equal endorsement – it merely equals acknowledgment of the reality.       




    Cagey18 -> RE: Bible bill in U.S. Congress (5/22/2009 7:12:53 PM)

    quote:

    ORIGINAL: Marc2b

    quote:

    Who gives a shit?  You honestly can't see the larger point I'm making?


    I do.  To discuss the Supreme Court without discussing the cultural/religious heritage that the Supreme Court – as well as the members of that court – was/were formed in, makes no sense.  It is like discussing planetary motion without discussing gravity.
    Not at all.  It's more akin to discussing planetary motion without discussing where the chalk came from that you're drawing orbits with, or the manufacturer of the chalkboard.

    In other words, not necessary to the discussion.


    quote:

    I fail to see why people are having a difficult time with the distinction I am drawing.   

    I fail to see why you think that just because someone grew up in a society with lots of Christians, doesn't mean that same person can't look at a legal issue independent of that background.  Especially when the Constitution specifically leaves out Christianity.




    ThatDamnedPanda -> RE: Bible bill in U.S. Congress (5/22/2009 7:42:31 PM)

    quote:

    ORIGINAL: MarsBonfire

    With the next year, in the interest of equal time, be declared "Year of the Necronomicon?"


    We might as well, because I was already planning on voting for Cthulhu in the Senate race. I'm so sick and tired of always voting for the lesser of two evils!




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