RE: Faith without works (Full Version)

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MissSepphora1 -> RE: Faith without works (5/29/2009 12:21:40 PM)

You cannot silence someone's faith in a book you don't believe in just because you don't believe in it.
As he cannot force you to believe in it or silence you.

Your arrogance is insulting.  To strive to silence someone just because you don't like their argument is... well the utmost in ignorance, and at the least, petty and immature.



Stephen123456 -> RE: Faith without works (5/29/2009 12:35:13 PM)

    Color me heretical if you will, BUT, my studies of various religions, and in the subject of comparative religion, have lead me to an inescapable conclusion, that being that MAN made every instance of what we call "god". He did it out of a set of universal needs, one of which was to explain what he couldn't, in his pre-scientific state, explain any other way. Let's look at some of the similarities. Christianity has a trinity, so did the Norse and does the Hindu. A second coming/return fom heaven? ditto. Major cataclysmic battle at the end of days? The norse called  theirs Ragnarok, and the Hindu have their own version thereof. If you look at the depictions of the various deity-concepts, and behavioral descriptions, you'll see that each religion depicted their concept as looking a lot like them, or creatures familiar TO them. Look at the ancient Greek and Roman deities, and look at their behaviors. Strife, jealousy, and infidelity were rampant, just as in the daily lives of the folk that believed in those concepts. Gods regularly procreated minor gods upon mortal women. That concept carried over into christianity too, but, failing to understand the biology/physiology of conception didn't absolutely require penetration, merely a good dollop of ejaculate on the vaginal area, and there being hymena intacta, "It was god's work!"

Believe in whatever works for you, but realize that you believe because it DOES work for you, and no other reason. Leave others to do the same.

Stephen



lazarus1983 -> RE: Faith without works (5/29/2009 12:43:29 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MissSepphora1

Your arrogance is insulting.  To strive to silence someone just because you don't like their argument is... well the utmost in ignorance, and at the least, petty and immature.


And that is organized religion in a nutshell. Way back when they used to kill scientists who would disagree with them. Poor Galileo was killed because he wanted them to look through a telescope.

Thankfully these days scientists are not being hunted down and murdered by peace loving religions for discovering fossils and other proof of evolution.



RCdc -> RE: Faith without works (5/29/2009 12:45:31 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ienigma777

To settle this; I'm not 'mad' at christians...I simply no longer accept their belief system, and I have cited the reasons why, which you apparently do not wish to, or choose not understand nor accept, unless you have some 'link' verification, apparently to justify my reasoning, or just any statement. When links are provided, you simply discount them, as I indicated earlier, if the discussion does not go your way, in agreeing with you, you discount the statement asking for link verification.


I didn't ask you for any links?  I asked why you made a sweeping generalisation which was a fallacy about all christians believing in a certain concept and in the same breath, discounted christians for creating fallacies.
I don't get why you are unable to answer that.  But then in reality, you have, by your own words.  You are showing that you are no different.

quote:

Your arguements are twisting, and basically does not edify anyone's understanding nor exploring any concepts, you are arguing the book, that is all, might as well be arguing Harry Potter books.....worthless.


No 'arguements' - I called you on your what I see as your hypocrasy.

quote:

The links, herein, prove your notion of Fallacy, as invalid, (a word you like to use to puffer up your illusion of being authoritative and right) since, if you bothered to read any of them, other sources, verifications of concepts which question (at the very least) the validity of the very core of christian faith.


They didn't do anything I hadn't already tried to discuss with you that - said they would do?  You still haven't cleared up my one and only question I keep asking you?

quote:

What makes me any different is...I am not a christain, I am a civilized man who lives according to decent human principles,not needing some mystical bible guide book, a man taking responsibility for his own actions, not blaming his failures on some other imagined evil diety, does not mislead, nor engage in exploitations in the name of God. In short...a man of principal and integrity.


You HAVE misled.  That is what I keep asking you as to the why?

quote:

Now that should silence you...oh, wait, I haven't any links for this dialogue....GEEZUS


I didn't ask for links - YOU asked me to provide links - so please do not LIE.  Wasn't that the basis of your discussion?  For a man who doesn't mislead, you're not really showing any evidence by your words - that is my question over and over.  WHY did you make a statement that was at best a fallacy, only to end your discussion with a statement about lies told enough becoming a truth and then go on about biblical inconsistancies - what makes what you are doing any different to christians which you seem to want to call out?

If you cannot answer, or refuse to answer, my calling out of your hypocrasy, then I am guessing this discussion has ended.
I have been patient, at least I believe I have.  I wanted to give you the benefit of doubt that you were not intentionally placing over non truths as reality and simply made a mistake.  Yes I am fucking pedantic.  Yes I am boringly annoying, persistant and repetative when it comes to something that I can obviously see was an obvious attempt at making a lie, TRUE.  But that was the premise of your initial paragraph.  And if a person cannot 'practise what they preach' - why should ANYONE believe anything you go on to say?
 
the.dark.



thornhappy -> RE: Faith without works (5/29/2009 5:19:34 PM)

By your statements, only a non-Christian can be "man taking responsibility for his own actions, not blaming his failures on some other imagined evil diety, does not mislead, nor engage in exploitations in the name of God. In short...a man of principal and integrity."

You're tarring with the equivalent of a wallpaper brush.

And no, I'm not Christian.  I study religion as a hobby.

ps The correct translation is "young woman", not "virgin"



Alphascendant -> RE: Faith without works (6/12/2009 3:45:19 AM)

Judging all "Christians" by the many generalizations made about "Christianity" could be commensurate to exclaiming that anybody with a sexual perversion should be locked up. Believing in evolution or the big bang theory does not eliminate one from being a "Christian" any more or less than does thinking the premise of "the trinity" is a crock of shit. To steer back to the original topic:

If ye love me, my commands keep  John 14.15*


he who is having my commands, and is keeping them, that one it is who is loving me, and he who is loving me shall be loved by my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.'
Judas saith to him, (not the Iscariot), `Sir, what hath come to pass, that to us thou are about to manifest thyself, and not to the world?'
Christ answered and said to him, `If any one may love me, my word he will keep, and my Father will love him, and unto him we will come, and abode with him we will make  John 14.21-23*

so also the faith, if it may not have works, is dead by itself.  James 2.17* 

Many will argue that James was not considered a true apostle because his words do not validate the doctrine of justification through faith alone. Still, they overlook the words of Christ, "If you love me you will do what I say." Since he is the way through the gate, it seems that it is his advice that should be taken as often as humanly possible.


and a certain one said to him, `Sir, are those saved few?' and he said unto them,
Be striving to go in through the straight gate, because many, I say to you, will seek to go in, and shall not be able;
from the time the master of the house may have risen up, and may have shut the door, and ye may begin without to stand, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, lord, open to us, and he answering shall say to you, I have not known you whence ye are,
then ye may begin to say, We did eat before thee, and did drink, and in our broad places thou didst teach;
and he shall say, I say to you, I have not known you whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of the unrighteousness.  Luke 13.23-27*


and he answering said to them -- `Well did Isaiah prophesy concerning you, hypocrites, as it hath been written, This people with the lips doth honor Me, and their heart is far from Me;  and in vain do they worship Me, teaching teachings, commands of men;
for, having put away the command of the Holy Spirit, ye hold the tradition of men, baptisms of pots and cups; and many other such like things ye do.'

And he said to them, `Well do ye put away the command of the Holy Spirit that your tradition ye may keep;
 for Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, He who is speaking evil of father or mother -- let him die the death;
 and ye say, If a man may say to father or to mother, Korban (that is, a gift), [is] whatever thou mayest be profited out of mine,
 and no more do ye suffer him to do anything for his father or for his mother, 
setting aside the word of the Holy Spirit for your tradition that ye delivered; and many such like things ye do.'

And having called near all the multitude, he said to them, `Hearken to me, ye all, and understand;
 there is nothing from without the man entering into him that is able to defile him, but the things coming out from him, those are the things defiling the man.
 If any hath ears to hear -- let him hear.'

And when he entered into a house from the multitude, his disciples were questioning him about the simile,
and he saith to them, `So also ye are without understanding! Do ye not perceive that nothing from without entering into the man is able to defile him?
 because it doth not enter into his heart, but into the belly, and into the drain it doth go out, purifying all the meats.'

And he said -- `That which is coming out from the man, that doth defile the man;
 for from within, out of the heart of men, the evil reasonings do come forth, adulteries, whoredoms, murders,
 thefts, covetous desires, wickedness, deceit, arrogance, an evil eye, evil speaking, pride, foolishness;
 all these evils do come forth from within, and they defile the man.'       Mark 7.6-23*

*Taken from Youngs Literal Translation

This inspiration extends only to the original text, as it came from the pens of the writers, not to any translations ever made by man, however aged, venerable, or good; and only in so far as any of these adhere to the original--neither adding to nor omitting from it one particle--are they of any real value, for, to the extent that they vary from the original, the doctrine of verbal inspiration is lost, so far as that version is concerned.
If a translation gives a present tense when the original gives a past, or a past when it has a present; a perfect for a future, or a future for a perfect; an a for a the, or a the for an a; an imperative for a subjunctive, or a subjunctive for an imperative; a verb for a noun, or a noun for a verb, it is clear that verbal inspiration is as much overlooked as if it had no existence. THE WORD OF GOD** IS MADE VOID BY THE TRADITIONS OF MEN.
http://www.ccel.org/bible/ylt/ylt.htm

** The word "GOD" is used in this context only to preserve the originality of this particular piece of quoted material



knees2you -> RE: Faith without works (6/18/2009 10:41:17 PM)

Faith is, what you believe in what you can't see.
 
With Faith should come works.[:)]

 
But if Prophecy is to be correct then what we believe in is to be true.
 
Things like this video will happen because of Prophecy.
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K7Xf-eOOHFk    Knees~~[sm=anger.gif]



Ialdabaoth -> RE: Faith without works (6/19/2009 12:52:00 AM)

I hope, when all is revealed, that 1 Corinthians 13 matters more than John 14.

quote:

If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. If I give all I possess to the poor and surrender my body to the flames, but have not love, I gain nothing.

Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.

Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. For we know in part and we prophesy in part, but when perfection comes, the imperfect disappears. When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put childish ways behind me. 12Now we see but a poor reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.

And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.


I can see multiple ways to reconcile this idea with other scripture, but I think Jesus' own words are the best advice:

quote:


The foremost is, 'Hear, O Israel! The Lord our God is one Lord; and you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind, and with all your strength.' "The second is this, 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' There is no other commandment greater than these.


I do not presume to know the will of God. I do not presume to know whether that God is even the Lord of Israel. All I know is that something happened to make causality come into being, and something happened to cause the universe to be capable of supporting dynamic multiply-interacting processes, of which I am but a small part. And to the vastness of time and space and meaning that is the Cosmos, all I can give is my love, as small and imperfect and inconstant as it is. I have too many questions and too many thoughts to give it my faith; I have too many worries and too many fears to give it my hope; all I can do is hope beyond hope that my love will be enough, and when that love moves me to act, act with all my heart and all my soul and all my mind and all my strength. May I be sure enough, and right enough, and smart enough, and strong enough to do what I need to do. I love you.




KockRocket -> RE: Faith without works (6/19/2009 5:21:09 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Alphascendant
so also the faith, if it may not have works, is dead by itself.  James 2.17* 

Many will argue that James was not considered a true apostle because his words do not validate the doctrine of justification through faith alone.



huh? I thought paul was the only one saying it don't matter what you do as long as you believe am I wrong about that?



Crush -> RE: Faith without works (6/19/2009 2:46:40 PM)

But what about works without faith? 



Alphascendant -> RE: Faith without works (6/22/2009 4:30:30 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Crush

But what about works without faith? 



for the Holy Spirit is not unrighteous to forget your work, and the labour of the love, that ye shewed to it's name, having ministered to the saints and ministering;

and we desire each one of you the same diligence to shew, unto the full assurance of the hope unto the end,

that ye may not become slothful, but followers of those who through faith and patient endurance are inheriting the promises.   Hebrews 6.10-12

But, take heed of the false prophets, who come unto you in sheep's clothing, and inwardly are ravening wolves.
From their fruits ye shall know them; do [men] gather from thorns grapes? or from thistles figs?
so every good tree doth yield good fruits, but the bad tree doth yield evil fruits. 
A good tree is not able to yield evil fruits, nor a bad tree to yield good fruits.
Every tree not yielding good fruit is cut down and is cast to fire:
therefore from their fruits ye shall know them.  Matthew 7.15-20

Ye have heard that it was said of them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment:
But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.    Matthew 5.21-22

Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother's righteous.  1 John 3.12

Woe unto them! for they have gone in the way of Cain, and ran greedily after the error of Balaam for reward, and perished in the gainsaying of Core.   Jude 1.11

Judge not, that ye be not judged.  Matthew 7.1

Speak not evil one of another, brethren. He that speaketh evil of his brother, and judgeth his brother, speaketh evil of the law, and judgeth the law: but if thou judge the law, thou art not a doer of the law, but a judge.  James 4.11

For the kingdom of the Holy Spirit is not in word, but in power.
What will ye? shall I come unto you with a rod, or in love, and in the spirit of meekness? 1 Corinthians 4.20-21

Here is an example of where the words of Paul have to be taken with a grain of salt:
"And the end of the charge is love out of a pure heart, and of a good conscience, and of faith unfeigned,  from which certain, having swerved, did turn aside to vain discourse,
willing to be teachers of law, not understanding either the things they say, nor concerning what they asseverate,
and we have known that the law [is] good, if any one may use it lawfully;
having known this, that for a righteous man law is not set, but for lawless and insubordinate persons, ungodly and sinners, impious and profane, parricides and matricides, men-slayers,
whoremongers, sodomites, men-stealers, liars, perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that to sound doctrine is adverse,
according to the good news of the glory of the blessed Holy Spirit, with which I was entrusted." 1 Timothy 1.5-11

It is my opinion that a doctrine formed on the foundation of Paul's words is not sound Christianity in a situation where his words are held in higher regard than those of Christ as in 1 Timothy, where Paul appears to be very condemning, quite contrary to the words of Christ in Matthew 7.1.  

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ialdabaoth

I hope, when all is revealed, that 1 Corinthians 13 matters more than John 14.

I can see multiple ways to reconcile this idea with other scripture, but I think Jesus' own words are the best advice:



Verily, verily, I say to you, he who is believing in me, the works that I do -- that one also shall do, and greater than these he shall do, because I go on to my Father.  John 14.12

The love doth never fail; and whether [there be] prophecies, they shall become useless; whether tongues, they shall cease; whether knowledge, it shall become useless;
for in part we know, and in part we prophecy;
and when that which is perfect may come, then that which [is] in part shall become useless.
When I was a babe, as a babe I was speaking, as a babe I was thinking, as a babe I was reasoning, and when I have become a man, I have made useless the things of the babe;
for we see now through a mirror obscurely, and then face to face; now I know in part, and then I shall fully know, as also I was known;
and now there doth remain faith, hope, love -- these three; and the greatest of these [is] love.
1 Corinthians 13.8-13

Peace I leave to you; my peace I give to you, not according as the world doth give do I give to you; let not your heart be troubled, nor let it be afraid.  John 14.27

So then, my brethren beloved, let every man be swift to hear, slow to speak, slow to anger,
for the wrath of a man the righteousness of the Holy Spirit doth not work;
wherefore having put aside all filthiness and superabundance of evil, in meekness be receiving the engrafted word, that is able to save your souls;
and become ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving yourselves,
because, if any one is a hearer of the word and not a doer, this one hath been like to a man viewing his natural face in a mirror,
for he did view himself, and hath gone away, and immediately he did forget of what kind he was;
and he who did look into the perfect law -- that of liberty, and did continue there, this one -- not a forgetful hearer becoming, but a doer of work -- this one shall be happy in his doing.  James 1.19-25

None is able to serve two masters, for either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will hold to the one, and despise the other; ye are not able to serve the Holy Spirit and material wealth.  Matthew 6.24

A new commandment I give to you, that ye love one another; according as I did love you, that ye also love one another.  John 13.34




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