Shouldn't a submissive try to top from the bottom?

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Shouldn't a submissive try to top from the bottom? - 5/26/2009 9:17:11 AM

ACryFromTheSoul

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Why is it the accepted norm that bottom/submissive/slaves should not try to top from the bottom?

I have always hated this hard and fast rule, or the assumption of a rule that seems to state that if one tops from the bottom they are automatically labeled as a brat, a manipulator or someone out for fun and games and little else.

Yet what happens if the complete opposite were true, what if topping from the bottom in a limited degree was good for the submissive and the relationship as a whole? (Especially at the start of that relationship)

Taking in consideration, the extraordinary amount of individuals who add the title of dominant, master ect to their names without the understanding, knowledge or experience behind it, wouldn’t trying to top from the bottom help the submissive uncover the character of the man she has decided to submit to as well as that of her own?

A general gist of the information I believe can be gathered by a submissive:

That the dominant can spot – toping from the bottom
He might be as smart and/or smarter than she is
She starts to learn how he handles toping from the bottom
She can see how he reacts
His patience level
His temperament (ie does he anger/frustrate easily)
That he has a stronger will then she does
That he is not a push over
She can start to feel safe
She can start to feel secure
She can start to build a comfort zone
She can start to feel contained
She can start to realize who is in control
She can start to realize that she is losing the control
(I have kept this in a positive light yet each of these could also be found to be lacking both in the dominant and in submissive herself)

While I am not endorsing trying to top from the bottom in the long run, as that hinders the growth process of the relationship. I disagree with the concept that a submissive should not at least try to top from the bottom simply for the reason that it allows both parties to start to realize their roles in the relationship, and for a submissive to start learning her place.

Thoughts?

< Message edited by ACryFromTheSoul -- 5/26/2009 9:26:13 AM >

Post #: 1

RE: Shouldn't a submissive try to top from the bottom? - 5/26/2009 9:24:43 AM

camille65

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From: Austin Texas
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It isn't a hard and fast rule.

It can be the rule between certain people sure, but that is something to be discussed before getting involved.

There are probably a lot of people that would say I top from the bottom, but I am required by him to present myself in a way that gets a particular reaction from him. From the outside no one would know it is the way he has set things to be, but we know and that is all that matters.

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(in reply to ACryFromTheSoul)

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RE: Shouldn't a submissive try to top from the bottom? - 5/26/2009 9:25:24 AM

pompeii

Posts: 934
Joined: 1/4/2007
From: Silicon Valley, San Jose, California
Status: offline

Personally, since I'm not all that experienced, I learn a lot when a sub tops from the bottom ...

It's like a dance ... one leads ... the other follows ...

(in reply to ACryFromTheSoul)

Post #: 3

RE: Shouldn't a submissive try to top from the bottom? - 5/26/2009 9:29:55 AM

GYPZYQUEEN

Posts: 730
Joined: 4/14/2009
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A sub I learned a LOT from...and I had an agreement with basically..
was:
he was teaching me..in the early days

We are all teachers and students...learning and sharing..
It is when there is manipulation that I get riled up

..don't play a game and try to trick me or manipulate.. let's talk..teach...learn straight up..COMMUNICATE

or else..

GQ

(in reply to pompeii)

Post #: 4

RE: Shouldn't a submissive try to top from the bottom? - 5/26/2009 9:38:21 AM

Fitznicely

Posts: 1597
Joined: 10/18/2006
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OK, I get your point about helping out inexperienced Doms, but personally, my tolerance limit would be about two seconds flat. I just don't play that way.

The way I see it is if the sub is in any way competent, they'd suss the Dom's lack of credentials before starting to play with them, or indeed, never reaching the point of playing...

An inexperienced sub, unable to recognise the lack of experience in their Dom will probably top from the bottom anyway, and I'd assume the Dom will not even realise what's being done to them. Frankly tho, such scenes scare me, as the accidental damage quotient goes thru the roof.

I'm not averse to learning new skills from an imaginative sub...indeed, my girl's full of ideas...but there's ways of doing it without breaking the dynamic.

Should I find I'm playing with a sub who tries it with me, I have two options: Cure their habit or send them packing.

Basically, if you don't feel you can give up control, there's something fundamentally wrong with the relationship you've found yourself in.

_____________________________

I tell you this: No eternal reward will forgive us now for wasting the dawn
Proud Owner of Darkmoonkat. Such a good girl!

(in reply to ACryFromTheSoul)

Post #: 5

RE: Shouldn't a submissive try to top from the bottom? - 5/26/2009 9:42:21 AM

SteelofUtah

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From: St George Utah
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It's all about dynamics. I strive to receive Absolute Obedience.

If andi attempted to top from the bottom she would be given a choice, that choice is the choice to Obey or the Choice to Leave. As our Relationship has progressed leaving became a concept rather than actual act. I have made it clear that I will always seek out what it is that I feel I need in a reltionship and if I am unable to get it from her my responsibilities to her may not change but I would seek out what I need in other avenues.

That being said andi understands that should she ever choose to "Leave" the dynamic that it would be her choice and she would have no say in what I did to seek out the relationship that I need. It would not change my love for her or my desire to maintain being with her however if she is not fulfilling me need for obedience I would find someone who would.

Because of this topping from the bottom is not a good thing for us in our dynamic. The problem I have is that people who talk about how pushing to test your dominant is so important NEVER STOP! it becomes this force game that the bottom gets off on and rarely likes the outcome. Often times they discover that the Top is more willing to just give into it than to stop it or when attempting to stop it are somehow abusing thier slave.

I have heard this argument many many times, in the end you have to ask yourself if you do not trust your own judgement on picking a responsible person what the hell you are doing getting involved? I may not choose the best partner all the time, but I know that when I do I accept all the responsibilities and cosenquences when I choose anyone.

Steel

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(in reply to GYPZYQUEEN)

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RE: Shouldn't a submissive try to top from the bottom? - 5/26/2009 9:47:14 AM

ACryFromTheSoul

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let me clarify my view on toping from the bottom:

example.. I asked my ex if I could have 5 minutes to clean my car before he got in. He said sure. I then turned around and asked if I could have 10 minutes instead. He said don't nickle and dime me... you now have 3 minutes.

And while I was not consciously to manipulate him, the fact that he called me out on it... I broke out in an unexpected smile on my end almost to the point of giggling... as it was thank you, thank you, thank you... for putting your foot down.

Also, I am not talking about deliberate acts, or intentional ... I am talking about those little things that do not affect the foundation of the relationship.

< Message edited by ACryFromTheSoul -- 5/26/2009 9:51:47 AM >

(in reply to SteelofUtah)

Post #: 7

RE: Shouldn't a submissive try to top from the bottom? - 5/26/2009 9:49:59 AM

IronBear

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Joined: 6/19/2005
From: Beenleigh, Qld, Australia
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I tend to be in agreement with Steel in this matter with one exception. If I have a slave or even a sub on loan to teach me something I have no experience with, as may happen in a workshop. This arrangement has set limits and a defined time frame for the duration of the teaching period. Outside that I am dealing almost exclusively with slaves where there is no room for topping from the bottom in my M/s dynamic

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D.I.L.L.I.G.A.F.

(in reply to SteelofUtah)

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RE: Shouldn't a submissive try to top from the bottom? - 5/26/2009 9:51:31 AM

subtlebutterfly

Posts: 2230
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From: Not your hood
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That's topping??

well dayum

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RE: Shouldn't a submissive try to top from the bottom? - 5/26/2009 9:53:15 AM

VampiresLair

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Joined: 9/3/2008
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Agreeing to allow a submissive to teach is different from someone topping from the bottom. The OP makes it sound like topping from the bottom is a test to see how someone reacts. IF that is how you interact in the relationship, then that is definately a brat. If you want to know about me, talk to me. Do not test me by topping from the bottom, you will not get far.

If I have agreed to be your dominant than you have agreed to be submissive to me. If you then take it upon yourself to then top without discussing it with me beforehand, you are breaking our agreement. If I wanted someone to top me, from the bottom or not it would have been part of the negotiations and communication before we entered the relationship. Afterwards, it is manipulative and testing, and I wont stand for it.

DV

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(in reply to ACryFromTheSoul)

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RE: Shouldn't a submissive try to top from the bottom? - 5/26/2009 9:55:04 AM

Phoenixpower

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*shivering after VampiresLair clear words"...phew...there really IS a benefit of being single on here...

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(in reply to VampiresLair)

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RE: Shouldn't a submissive try to top from the bottom? - 5/26/2009 9:55:40 AM

Fitznicely

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Joined: 10/18/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: ACryFromTheSoul

let me clarify my view on toping from the bottom:

example.. I asked my ex if I could have 5 minutes to clean my car before he got in. He said sure. I then turned around and asked if I could have 10 minutes instead. He said don't nickle and dime me... you now have 3 minutes

I am not talking about deliberate acts, or intentional ... I am talking about those little things that do not affect the foundation of the relationship.

OHHHH....

I'd say that was bratting, and a source for much hilarity.

An example of topping from the bottom as I understand it would be: "Sir, don't you think this girl has earned a spanking? Sir, don't you want to tie me up now? Why don't you do it like that, Sir?"

_____________________________

I tell you this: No eternal reward will forgive us now for wasting the dawn
Proud Owner of Darkmoonkat. Such a good girl!

(in reply to ACryFromTheSoul)

Post #: 12

RE: Shouldn't a submissive try to top from the bottom? - 5/26/2009 9:58:55 AM

Phoenixpower

Posts: 8098
Status: offline

lol....washing the car would be a hard limit for me...who doesnt like the state of my car can walk...doesnt matter if a vanilla friend or a master

< Message edited by Phoenixpower -- 5/26/2009 9:59:26 AM >

_____________________________

RIP 08-09-07

The PAST is history, the FUTURE a mystery, NOW is a gift - that's why it's called the PRESENT

www.butyoudontlooksick.com/navigation/BYDLS-TheSpoonTheory.pdf

(in reply to Fitznicely)

Post #: 13

RE: Shouldn't a submissive try to top from the bottom? - 5/26/2009 9:59:45 AM

ACryFromTheSoul

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Joined: 10/21/2006
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One of the reasons why I never post, is trying to clearly state things has never been my area of expertise.

It is not a deliberate act, or something that is purposely done... and I think my choice of using the word topping, might have been to strong of a word to use.

(in reply to VampiresLair)

Post #: 14

RE: Shouldn't a submissive try to top from the bottom? - 5/26/2009 9:59:47 AM

antipode

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Joined: 4/19/2004
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quote:

Why is it the accepted norm that bottom/submissive/slaves should not try to top from the bottom?

Accepted by whom? I am not aware of any "hard and fast" rules. Or is it that you have an innate need to make rules, then change them?

(in reply to ACryFromTheSoul)

Post #: 15

RE: Shouldn't a submissive try to top from the bottom? - 5/26/2009 10:02:29 AM

ACryFromTheSoul

Posts: 53
Joined: 10/21/2006
Status: offline

eh... I give up.

I am clearly not explaining this well, and it is being taken the wrong way completely. It is not what it appears...

(in reply to antipode)

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RE: Shouldn't a submissive try to top from the bottom? - 5/26/2009 10:03:57 AM

trappedinamuseum

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Joined: 8/24/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Fitznicely

OHHHH....

I'd say that was bratting, and a source for much hilarity.

An example of topping from the bottom as I understand it would be: "Sir, don't you think this girl has earned a spanking? Sir, don't you want to tie me up now? Why don't you do it like that, Sir?"

I don't know if I necessarily see that as topping from the bottom. P sent me a text that said "Slut :-)" the other day. I replied back, "This slut needs a beating". It was completely in jest, and he took it as such. I was in no way attempting to control the relationship, or the outcome. I was merely teasing him, mostly because I know that no matter what I say, I will either get the beating, or not get the beating, depending on his wishes.

Perhaps the tone of voice, or the timbre of the conversation also has something to do with it.

_____________________________

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RE: Shouldn't a submissive try to top from the bottom? - 5/26/2009 10:10:27 AM

DesFIP

Posts: 25191
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From: Apple County NY
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All a bottom can do is say what they would like. Nowhere does that mean that the top automatically must change what he's doing to accomodate it. Whether she goes 'ooh a little to the left' or 'no, not there or I swear I'll strangle you when you let me up' doesn't matter. It's all information as to her mood and desires. What the top does with that info is up to the two of them.

The Man wants me aroused so if I go "too hard" with a yelp, he knows that what he's doing isn't going to get him the result he wants. If he softens it, he does get what he wants. He decides what he wants as a result and uses the info I present to get what he wants.

And if he feels like laughing, he'll continue what he was doing when I threaten his life while all tied up.

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RE: Shouldn't a submissive try to top from the bottom? - 5/26/2009 10:13:15 AM

Fitznicely

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Joined: 10/18/2006
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Cry: I totally welcome the phenomenon you describe. It keeps the relationship fresh, exciting and fun... One of O/our favourite tunes has the phrase "Fuck you I won't do what you tell me" repeatedly at the end of the song...This weekend, dancing to it at a club and seeing my girl singing along, trying to catch my eye meaningfully, I had to stop dancing with a fit of the giggles.

How about you give some more examples, so we get a better handle on what you're on about?

_____________________________

I tell you this: No eternal reward will forgive us now for wasting the dawn
Proud Owner of Darkmoonkat. Such a good girl!

(in reply to ACryFromTheSoul)

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RE: Shouldn't a submissive try to top from the bottom? - 5/26/2009 10:16:48 AM

SylvereApLeanan

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~FR~

Topping from below isn't something I tolerate. If you (generic) want to know something about me, ask. If you don't already know me well enough to know that I am as smart or smarter than you, to trust that you are safe with me, or know that when I told you I was high maintenance I meant it and you are comfortable with it, then you shouldn't have submitted yourself to me. If you aren't sure of your place in the relationship, then you either need to communicate with me or you need to do some serious soul searching. If you've agreed to be submissive to me, then you can either obey or you can leave. Testing me will get you as far as the curb. Where you go from there is none of my concern.

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