RE: Shouldn't a submissive try to top from the bottom?

RE: Shouldn't a submissive try to top from the bottom? (Full Version)

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ACryFromTheSoul -> RE: Shouldn't a submissive try to top from the bottom? (5/26/2009 12:20:42 PM)
let me add this into the mix, and this might or might not change your perception of what I am expressing. and my batting average is 50/50 today so let me know what I need to clarify There is a difference between where a submissive's heart is, if she were to purposely go against something that was asked of her ..that is much different then lets say having a bad day and using the wrong tone (again not intentionally) but because something is out of control within the submissive and she is inadvertently using the wrong tone because she needs the control from the dominant and does not realize/recognizing what she is doing or why. It is not a deliberate act, it is not something she is aware of... yet at the same time this could be considered toping by many. ... And your point is made in regards to the foundation being affected.. soft smile.

agirl -> RE: Shouldn't a submissive try to top from the bottom? (5/26/2009 12:40:04 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ACryFromTheSoul let me add this into the mix, and this might or might not change your perception of what I am expressing. and my batting average is 50/50 today so let me know what I need to clarify There is a difference between where a submissive's heart is, if she were to purposely go against something that was asked of her ..that is much different then lets say having a bad day and using the wrong tone (again not intentionally) but because something is out of control within the submissive and she is inadvertently using the wrong tone because she needs the control from the dominant and does not realize/recognizing what she is doing or why. It is not a deliberate act, it is not something she is aware of... yet at the same time this could be considered toping by many. ... And your point is made in regards to the foundation being affected.. soft smile. What topping is , varies according to who you're speaking to. I've no doubt that a lot of my behaviour would be viewed by the intellectual bdsm souls, as all sorts of varying shades of unacceptable. I don't CARE what is spouted by people that don't know ME , or US. They aren't likely to get itunless they do anyhow. agirl

NihilusZero -> RE: Shouldn't a submissive try to top from the bottom? (5/26/2009 12:58:55 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ACryFromTheSoul ce between where a submissive's heart is, if she were to purposely go against something that was asked of her ..that is much different then lets say having a bad day and using the wrong tone (again not intentionally) but because something is out of control within the submissive and she is inadvertently using the wrong tone because she needs the control from the dominant and does not realize/recognizing what she is doing or why. It is not a deliberate act, it is not something she is aware of... yet at the same time this could be considered toping by many. I think a distinction should be made between understandable deviation from a normal yielding disposition (I wouldn't even call it misbehaving, necessarily, because your example describes a common reaction) and TFTB. It seems your initial point centers around the question if TFTB can happen unintentionally. I'd probably answer "yes". If that's the sort of situation we're talking about, then using phrases such as (because she needs the control of the dominant" get confusing because that can be taken as either a description of her acts from the outside looking in or as a deliberate awareness of doing something secretly to achieve a desired end. There's a difference between the sub in question thinking "I'm going to do X in order to get Y from my D-type" and sub reacting in that way without realizing it. Granted, while I favor subs who would have a good understanding of the way they operate emotionally, we don't always have a crystal clear blueprint for every way we react to events. I wouldn't necessarily hold it against the sub in that respect, although I would expect her reaction to how I deal with it to be consciously obedient. quote: ORIGINAL: ACryFromTheSoul And your point is made in regards to the foundation being affected.. soft smile. In addition to my comments above, I feel it merits saying that I wouldn't want to create a scenario where the sub has this fear of having no margin of error if a reaction of hers could possibly be construed as being TFTB.

NihilusZero -> RE: Shouldn't a submissive try to top from the bottom? (5/26/2009 1:02:09 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: agirl *What topping* is , varies according to who you're speaking to.** This makes perfect sense. Although...I'm curious as to why you needed to follow it up with... quote: ORIGINAL: agirl *I've no doubt that a lot of my behaviour* would be viewed by the intellectual bdsm souls, as all sorts of varying shades of unacceptable.** ...unless your intent was to share the fact that you don't like intellectual folks as partners or friends who may critique you.

leadership527 -> RE: Shouldn't a submissive try to top from the bottom? (5/26/2009 1:24:36 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ACryFromTheSoul Thoughts? Sure, I have a thought. My thought is that anyone who tried such blatant manipulation on me at the beginning of the relationship would quickly find it to be the end of the relationship too. Their cute little test worked for them and me both. They found out that I don't suffer devious people (presumably kudos to me) and I found out they are a devious person (not so much kudos to them). In other words, the theoretical "submissive" you are describing would quickly find all the things in your list as I sent them far far away from me.

DavanKael -> RE: Shouldn't a submissive try to top from the bottom? (5/26/2009 1:44:36 PM)
It's interesting that you pointed out a dominant male and a submissive female, op. That isn't inherently how dynamics go. Anyway, imo, even if it is early into the relationship, the behaviors you describe still strike me as game-playing. Afterall, why set someone up for a test...why not simply interact with them in a genuine fashion and see how each of you responds? I wholly disagree with your premise that this is actually a legitimate form of informationgathering in an intimate relationship: set-ups impede intimacy and trust rather than facilitating it. There's a huge, huge difference between living deliberately and to orchestrating every interaction. Davan

ACryFromTheSoul -> RE: Shouldn't a submissive try to top from the bottom? (5/26/2009 2:25:26 PM)
smile... As you pointed out, my choice of words/phrases in some cases is not the best in trying to express my view point. In addition reacting to, and living a d/s relationship is different then trying to write about it. Words don't convey what actions/lack of action can. Also in no way, am I trying to convey an intentional topping from the bottom, I am trying to express the unintentional. I hope that clears things up, and thank you for expressing your views... smile

ACryFromTheSoul -> RE: Shouldn't a submissive try to top from the bottom? (5/26/2009 2:29:19 PM)
did you read the rest of the posts by any chance? my first one, was god awful I completely butchered what I was trying to get across, and I can only hope that somewhere along the line the rest of my posts might give you a better idea of what I was trying to say. soft smile

ExSteelAgain -> RE: Shouldn't a submissive try to top from the bottom? (5/26/2009 2:30:18 PM)
I'll certainly listen to ideas from a bottom. She may know lots more than I do. However, I can still maintain my dominance over her even if she is suggesting things. It's a mindset, not just knowing certain techniques.

ACryFromTheSoul -> RE: Shouldn't a submissive try to top from the bottom? (5/26/2009 2:37:46 PM)
Smile... it is easier to write from ones point of view... and yes including all other relationship dynamics might have been an option but it could have made the post even more confusing. I disagree with my first post also, so I am glad we are on the same page.. chuckling. My post came out completely wrong, and I have been trying to rectify that ever since. Hopefully my later posts help clarify things, and take the sting out of my originally post.

ACryFromTheSoul -> RE: Shouldn't a submissive try to top from the bottom? (5/26/2009 2:43:31 PM)
thank you... for your post.. hugs

littlewonder -> RE: Shouldn't a submissive try to top from the bottom? (5/26/2009 3:04:25 PM)
I don't need to top from the bottom to know my role with Master. He IS a dominant personality and his personality brings out my submission to him. If I was to try and top him in any way whatsoever I think I'd quickly be alone. Plus I have zero interest in topping or dominating anyone at all. It's not part of who I am and holds no interest to me. Topping from the bottoming always makes me wonder who's really in control. I'd have to think I wasn't very wise in my choice of a partner.

CaringandReal -> RE: Shouldn't a submissive try to top from the bottom? (5/26/2009 3:54:44 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ACryFromTheSoul let me clarify my view on toping from the bottom: example.. I asked my ex if I could have 5 minutes to clean my car before he got in. He said sure. I then turned around and asked if I could have 10 minutes instead. He said don't nickle and dime me... you now have 3 minutes. And while I was not consciously to manipulate him, the fact that he called me out on it... I broke out in an unexpected smile on my end almost to the point of giggling... as it was thank you, thank you, thank you... for putting your foot down. Also, I am not talking about deliberate acts, or intentional ... I am talking about those little things that do not affect the foundation of the relationship. Since it's not exactly typical for tops (or even vanilla partners) to have to ask for things like extra time to clean a car, I don't see what you did as topping from the bottom. I see it rather as a humorous expression of high spirits, which some dominants might not appreciate but which luckily for you (although I suspect the fact that you wound up with this dominant and not some other type was more skill on your part than luck), yours responded to with what seems to me to be an ideal mixture of wit and control. The point is, you asked, both times, which, last time I looked, was submissive behavior. Yes the second request was a little...uppity...but you good-naturedly accepted his counter to it, you didn't turn it into a "this is dead serious and you must give me this or else" power battle or anything else unpleasant. (Some submissives would have, you know.) I can't imagine anyone except perhaps a totally humorless schmuck or an extremely insecure dominant (or the two combined in one body--shudder!) becoming upset by this sort of "topping from the bottom." About power struggles of the more serious kind, I think it's natural for them to occur in dominant/submissive relationships, and the more extreme the relationship is, power-wise, the more likely they are to occur. I think that whether you are the dominant partner or the submissive partner, it helps to expect these situations will crop up rather than consider them signs of incompetence and failure, and when they do, to use them as vehicles to learn how to deal with such things in ways that are not toxic for the relationship.

greeneyedreamer -> RE: Shouldn't a submissive try to top from the bottom? (5/26/2009 4:00:41 PM)
Is thinking that this is yet another Black and White issue... Sheesh, There are no black and white issues people NONE...

Mercnbeth -> RE: Shouldn't a submissive try to top from the bottom? (5/26/2009 4:03:44 PM)
quote: ...Why is it the accepted norm that bottom/submissive/slaves should not try to top from the bottom?... this slave is not aware that any "accepted norms" exist for bottom/submissive/slaves. if topping from the bottom works for you, go for it...but just like anything else, it doesn't appeal to everyone.

ACryFromTheSoul -> RE: Shouldn't a submissive try to top from the bottom? (5/26/2009 4:09:52 PM)
point well made.. Sad smile. Unfortunately the original post came out horribly wrong, and did not say what I wanted it to convey.

SlyStone -> RE: Shouldn't a submissive try to top from the bottom? (5/26/2009 4:11:09 PM)
quote: Why is it the accepted norm that bottom/submissive/slaves should not try to top from the bottom? Unless the dominant relinquishes power altogether to the submissive there is no such thing as topping from the bottom, and if that happens I think the dynamic is done. But I think power is fluid and I am not so insecure to admit that there are moments when it is even shared, the key is that it never be relinquished. But I do find it interesting when I read posts where dominants say that they are in total control or need to be in total control at every moment, period exclamation point. See, I am not looking to dom a robot, I want a human being and they have emotions and past histories and intellectual capabilities that I want to engage and explore and sometimes to do that I need to let go of the rope and let her run free and at times she may even test my dominance in doing so. That's ok with me. I think anyone can dominant a submissive who never tests her boundaries and who never questions her position and I don't think that is topping from the bottom or testing, but rather feeling out the world around her, as is our human nature to do. Of course a dominant needs to set limits as to what he or she considers to be acceptable behavior, but personally I look for a woman who will challenge me both intellectually and physically, who will test my ability to retain authority and to control the situation, because to me that is the true test of the dominant, and more importantly, I find it way more fun that way. But of course, to each his own.

ACryFromTheSoul -> RE: Shouldn't a submissive try to top from the bottom? (5/26/2009 4:13:52 PM)
thank you, that was wonderfully written and you expressed your views beautifully. hugs.

ACryFromTheSoul -> RE: Shouldn't a submissive try to top from the bottom? (5/26/2009 4:18:09 PM)
very well stated, and a wonderfully well thought out view point hugs

dreamerdreaming -> RE: Shouldn't a submissive try to top from the bottom? (5/26/2009 5:13:58 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ACryFromTheSoul Why is it the accepted norm that bottom/submissive/slaves should not try to top from the bottom? I have always hated this hard and fast rule, or the assumption of a rule that seems to state that if one tops from the bottom they are automatically labeled as a brat, a manipulator or someone out for fun and games and little else. Yet what happens if the complete opposite were true, what if topping from the bottom in a limited degree was good for the submissive and the relationship as a whole? (Especially at the start of that relationship) Taking in consideration, the extraordinary amount of individuals who add the title of dominant, master ect to their names without the understanding, knowledge or experience behind it, wouldn’t trying to top from the bottom help the submissive uncover the character of the man she has decided to submit to as well as that of her own? A general gist of the information I believe can be gathered by a submissive: That the dominant can spot – toping from the bottom He might be as smart and/or smarter than she is She starts to learn how he handles toping from the bottom She can see how he reacts His patience level His temperament (ie does he anger/frustrate easily) That he has a stronger will then she does That he is not a push over She can start to feel safe She can start to feel secure She can start to build a comfort zone She can start to feel contained She can start to realize who is in control She can start to realize that she is losing the control (I have kept this in a positive light yet each of these could also be found to be lacking both in the dominant and in submissive herself) While I am not endorsing trying to top from the bottom in the long run, as that hinders the growth process of the relationship. I disagree with the concept that a submissive should not at least try to top from the bottom simply for the reason that it allows both parties to start to realize their roles in the relationship, and for a submissive to start learning her place. Thoughts? ACryFromTheSoul, The sub you are describing in your OP is very frightened and insecure. Safety is a big concern for such a person. They didn't get that way overnight. So a lot of time and patience would be needed, in order for a dom to bring such a fearful sub to a place of feeling truly safe and secure with them. A much better way of going about the process would be for the sub to just lay it all out in the beginning, instead of playing games. To just communicate frankly about the high level of fear and insecurity they feel, and ask for whatever help they need from the dom, to help them overcome it. This approach would save time because with open, honest communication instead of game playing, trust can grow. Confessing one's deep fear is a step toward building trust. The sub who is brave enough to allow themselves to be vulnerable and let the dom see what is really going on inside them, is advancing the dom a good measure of trust and knowledge from which to build. The sub who hides away their fears and uses manipulation to try to address them is at a high risk of being kicked to the curb in record time. Doms don't like being jerked around, and any self-respecting dom won't put up with it. A sub will need to advance the dom a healthy amount of trust to begin with, or the dom won't have a chance to earn more. Without trust, the relationship cannot grow and flourish. It will stagnate, and die away. All of the above applies to any relationship, of course- not just D/s. Anybody would run screaming away from someone who hides away inside themselves while they play a bunch of head games on others.

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