RE: Shouldn't a submissive try to top from the bottom?

RE: Shouldn't a submissive try to top from the bottom? (Full Version)

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Andalusite -> RE: Shouldn't a submissive try to top from the bottom? (5/26/2009 5:24:00 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: NihilusZero This is essentially an offshoot thread to a recent one started by DemonKia about how well "testing" is received (which strikes me as interesting as more people seem comfortable with the same premise made here, just being described in a different way). And while I argued, there, that such testing, when put into play at the beginning of the interaction phase between two people, can help uncover compatibilities, I made specific mention that such testing becomes an attempt at covert manipulation once the relationship has started. I think you're referring to my thread, http://www.collarchat.com/m_2619693/tm.htm since Kia's was more about expecting someone who she shares her vulnerabilities with to reciprocate, rather than about "testing" and such in general. The only sense in which I've deliberately "topped from the bottom" is literally thwacking them to their specifications, which obviously won't happen unless they tell me to do so. It is important to me to be able to give feedback and make polite, respectful requests. So far, I haven't been accused of topping from the bottom when I've done so, but I've seen some people here post about their partner doing so, as agirl described. I didn't take it as her disliking intellectuals, but rather that whether or not she is submissive enough is between her and her partner, not something that those outside of their relationship have a right to express an opinion about. I think that dominants who are that focused on or worried about their submissive "topping from the bottom" come across as insecure and uncertain in their dominance. It isn't necessarily a "red flag" or dealbreaker, but I would want to discuss with them what their needs/requirements were in terms of communication and feedback. I do a certain amount of exploration of reactions/interaction with any man I date, regardless of D/s orientation, but not in a covert or manipulative way. I do need to build trust in smaller steps, and get to know someone slowly, before making a commitment to them, whether or not it involves D/s. To the OP, your example comes across to me as mildly bratty, which could be playful (not a problem) or just a reminder that it's better to have an estimate of the time you need to accomplish something before asking! While it's possible to speak in a snarky tone or with poor choice of words that comes across badly, without deliberately intending disrespect, I think that it is important to be mindful of both tone and word choice, especially in potentially negative circumstances. Again, if I had a submissive who said something that came across that way, I would stay calm, ask for clarification, and ask them to try to express their emotions in a more constructive way. If I spoke that way to my partner (especially if he were dominant, but even if he were submissive or we were in an egalitarian kinky relationship), I'd be pretty mortified! Of course, everyone gets upset sometimes, and I'm no exception, but I try to have enough self-control to be able to bring it up to him without being nasty or bratty.

ACryFromTheSoul -> RE: Shouldn't a submissive try to top from the bottom? (5/26/2009 5:39:13 PM)
this post brought tears to my eyes... partly because it hit the nail on the head in a few points and partly because of frustration that the rest of my posts were not read prior to providing a response. You dead on in your first paragraph, more then I want to admit. Painfully so. You second paragraph is a bit off, if anything I am way too honest, way too opened and lack the ability to play games. And that might sound preposterous to say, I am one that does not have the ability to lie... my face, body, voice, everything about me tells exactly what is on my mind prior to even saying it. So not only is it basically impossible for me to do (I wouldn't even know where to start), it would feel awful to knowingly set someone up. In regards to communicating, I do... I am quite the chatter box at times in regards to telling about myself. (soft smile) In regards to trusting someone... your right that takes more time for me then most, but being vulnerable and completely open to someone ... wow how I desperately want that again. I miss having that. I agree, dominants and well just about anyone does not like to be jerked around. Again, while my post sounded like I am one that plays games... I wrote the post horribly and have been trying to fix that error ever since.

ACryFromTheSoul -> RE: Shouldn't a submissive try to top from the bottom? (5/26/2009 5:45:19 PM)
Smile... I am not referring to any other posts, this post was created without the knowledge that another similar post existed. (but I will take the time to read your shortly though) Also, you make some wonderful points in your last two paragraphs. Food for thought. smile Thank you for adding to the post.

Andalusite -> RE: Shouldn't a submissive try to top from the bottom? (5/26/2009 5:57:19 PM)
Oh, I didn't mean you in the first two paragraphs, I was replying to NihilusZero. :) Anyway, I've seen a lot of women here (it doesn't seem to happen as often with Dommes/male subs) who seem to be afraid to express any opinions or requests or desires in their D/s relationship. It seems like a lot of male Dominants expect their submissive to be turned on only by service and by meeting his needs. While that can indeed be arousing, even if it's something I don't enjoy, over the long term, I need to have some things that I actually LIKE, as well. I actively am incompatible with the "one strike and you're out" type of dominants - I don't want to constantly feel scared of making the slightest mistake! When I date someone who is interested in D/s, we spend a lot of time talking about what that specifically means to both of us, what our expectations and needs are, approaches to communication, etc.

NihilusZero -> RE: Shouldn't a submissive try to top from the bottom? (5/26/2009 9:44:41 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Andalusite Anyway, I've seen a lot of women here (it doesn't seem to happen as often with Dommes/male subs) who seem to be afraid to express any opinions or requests or desires in their D/s relationship. My view on this is one that, I hope, would reflect at least my personal views that I am entirely open to subs expressing their views and opinions. At least as far as my commentary has been concerned, that's precisely what I'd be aiming for. What would irk me is that a sub, in a situation where she felt she wasn't able to express her views, started relying on covert means to do so rather than either be direct with the concerns/ideas or, if she feels she's left no freedom to do so, question the dynamic she's in (as one conducive to her needs/wants) to begin with. Although this topic is a bit apart from what I've gathered ACryFromTheSoul has been alluding to. And, yes...you're right about the original thread being yours. The one Kia had made in reference to it was the one more recently fresh in my memory and therefore the one I gravitated towards referencing.

agirl -> RE: Shouldn't a submissive try to top from the bottom? (5/27/2009 7:30:14 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: NihilusZero quote: ORIGINAL: agirl *What topping* is , varies according to who you're speaking to.** This makes perfect sense. Although...I'm curious as to why you needed to follow it up with... quote: ORIGINAL: agirl *I've no doubt that a lot of my behaviour* would be viewed by the intellectual bdsm souls, as all sorts of varying shades of unacceptable.** ...unless your intent was to share the fact that you don't like intellectual folks as partners or friends who may critique you. No, not at all. Good point, though. It wasn't really relevant. While I was thinking about TFTB, and the many ways it's interpreted, I was giving a nod* to the way in which my behaviour and my relationship have been analysed by people outside of it. 'T'was a sarky comment. agirl

NihilusZero -> RE: Shouldn't a submissive try to top from the bottom? (5/27/2009 8:29:05 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: agirl 'T'was a sarky comment. agirl [:D][8D]

lobodomslavery -> RE: Shouldn't a submissive try to top from the bottom? (5/27/2009 10:16:28 AM)
why not . id say go for it. what the worst that can happen. your kicked to the curb. so what there are plenty more Dommes out there kevin

CreativeDominant -> RE: Shouldn't a submissive try to top from the bottom? (5/27/2009 12:16:06 PM)
Personally, from what I've read about in your posts on this thread, I feel that what you speak of is more of a bratty behavior rather than topping from the bottom. I don't go for topping from the bottom. If you've entered into a D/s dynamic with me, then that means you understand who and what I am...at a basic level anyway...and trust me to do what I have said in terms of domination. You know what I expect and you have learned what you can expect from me. One of my expectations is communication. Another one is a submissive who can express her wants/needs/desires even if it is difficult. Another one is trust in me that I won't laugh at your wants/needs/desires no matter how poorly they are expressed. Another one is a submissive who gets the idea that in my world, submission is about yielding YOUR will to mine, not the other way around through manipulation or covert actions. I don't test my submissives and I damn sure don't expect them to test me.

Eleutherios -> RE: Shouldn't a submissive try to top from the bottom? (5/27/2009 5:03:24 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ACryFromTheSoul Why is it the accepted norm that bottom/submissive/slaves should not try to top from the bottom? I have always hated this hard and fast rule, or the assumption of a rule that seems to state that if one tops from the bottom they are automatically labeled as a brat, a manipulator or someone out for fun and games and little else. Yet what happens if the complete opposite were true, what if topping from the bottom in a limited degree was good for the submissive and the relationship as a whole? (Especially at the start of that relationship) Taking in consideration, the extraordinary amount of individuals who add the title of dominant, master ect to their names without the understanding, knowledge or experience behind it, wouldn’t trying to top from the bottom help the submissive uncover the character of the man she has decided to submit to as well as that of her own? A general gist of the information I believe can be gathered by a submissive: That the dominant can spot – toping from the bottom He might be as smart and/or smarter than she is She starts to learn how he handles toping from the bottom She can see how he reacts His patience level His temperament (ie does he anger/frustrate easily) That he has a stronger will then she does That he is not a push over She can start to feel safe She can start to feel secure She can start to build a comfort zone She can start to feel contained She can start to realize who is in control She can start to realize that she is losing the control (I have kept this in a positive light yet each of these could also be found to be lacking both in the dominant and in submissive herself) While I am not endorsing trying to top from the bottom in the long run, as that hinders the growth process of the relationship. I disagree with the concept that a submissive should not at least try to top from the bottom simply for the reason that it allows both parties to start to realize their roles in the relationship, and for a submissive to start learning her place. Thoughts? I don't usually use the term "topping from the bottom", I just call it what it is, manipulation. Anytime a person tries to surreptitiously control what their partner does, it's manipulation. If you want to know about the person, don't set up ways to test them, talk to them and watch what they do naturally. I have to play enough BS games with people in the professional world, I don't want a partner that can't just say what's on her mind.

YourhandMyAss -> RE: Shouldn't a submissive try to top from the bottom? (5/27/2009 5:58:19 PM)
I wouldn't consider that topping from the bottom, I'd consider it wasting time mine and his. quote: ORIGINAL: ACryFromTheSoul let me clarify my view on toping from the bottom: example.. I asked my ex if I could have 5 minutes to clean my car before he got in. He said sure. I then turned around and asked if I could have 10 minutes instead. He said don't nickle and dime me... you now have 3 minutes. And while I was not consciously to manipulate him, the fact that he called me out on it... I broke out in an unexpected smile on my end almost to the point of giggling... as it was thank you, thank you, thank you... for putting your foot down. Also, I am not talking about deliberate acts, or intentional ... I am talking about those little things that do not affect the foundation of the relationship.

lovingpet -> RE: Shouldn't a submissive try to top from the bottom? (5/27/2009 6:18:11 PM)
I am jumping into the deep end without checking to see the water in the pool, so please bear with me here. I "topped from the bottom" a few weekends ago. I know!!!!! Shocked beyond words you all are! It was not intentional. I was terrified of a task before me, blatantly terrified. There was a lot of major issues wrapped around it including some heavy things from my past. I begged and pleaded and claimed this thing was not going to happen for weeks before it was set to occur. When the time came I meandered, stalled, distracted, anything to keep from this thing I was so afraid of. I predictably failed as I knew I would. Now should I have been in big trouble for this behavior? I guess that is for the individual dominant to decide. Mine chose to understand me and my fear. He was merciful. I still had to go through with it and it was probably one of the hardest things I will ever have to do, but I did obey and we came through stronger for having gone through it together. I already knew I could rely upon his control and protection, but it reaffirmed it deeply to me. I think that he watched me struggle through this for HIM and came to a deeper appreciation of my devotion and trust of him. Does all this change how you would have answered at the beginning of this paragraph? Maybe it would, or maybe it wouldn't. We are closer for it. I never meant to be "topping from the bottom". I was actually doing the best I could to stay calm and accept what was coming. If in doubt, my thread from that time is still over on the subbie forum. I never intended to run him and he knew this. I just had to process this very difficult thing through. It was honest and based in understandable, if not rational, fears. I did the best I could. He carried me the rest of the way on his will. I have found a lot of peace in him from my "unruliness". I hope to never become that way again, but I guess that really depends on what the next hard thing is and how deeply we've grown by the time it occurs. lovingpet

TaskmasterInNY -> RE: Shouldn't a submissive try to top from the bottom? (6/4/2009 9:38:54 PM)
I am a fairly new Dom and my sub is never allowed to top from the bottom. Her need is to be controlled and my need is to control her. If I lget her get away with topping from the bottom, I have shown her that I will relinquish control at times. As far as learning about the Dom or the sub, we talked and talked and talked before entering the Ds relationship. It was made clear to my sub that if she needs to learn something from or about me she may come to me out of role and ask. Otherwise, I am the one in charge, never her. She appreciates that in our relationship. She had to be broken of topping from the bottom in the beginning.

stella41b -> RE: Shouldn't a submissive try to top from the bottom? (6/4/2009 10:21:44 PM)
'Topping from the bottom'.. ah doesn't that phrase bring back memories? I don't go by rules or even any sort of rigid dynamic. I did that when I was in domestic service and things were pretty much cut and dried, but in a D/s relationship I favour something a bit more fluid, principles, an ethos and the spirit of togetherness, oneness and teamwork. Maybe it was because I was 'trained', 'conditioned', 'drilled' whatever you wish to call it as an Alpha sub/slave (please, we won't go there) where I was given a general principle over when to top from the bottom, why, and what the likely outcome would be (this is why there's no such rules in WIITWD, try finding two dominants who are even remotely similar for one thing) and in at least one of my relationships I was expected to do so in the absence of a dominant where my words would carry the same authority as if they themselves had spoken the words. What I've found is this isn't really an issue for me. Firstly, I never allow myself to get into a dynamic with someone I don't know or am not sure about, secondly I put it down to 'communication'. I may when necessary break up the dynamic or protocol and 'top from the bottom' so to speak, and usually in such cases I would expect to be listened to and compliance from a dominant, mainly because the issue is that important so as to cause me to have to make the decision concerning that issue. Otherwise everything is hunky dory, the dominant can get on with being dominant, I can get on with being submissive and any grey area is taken up by the overlap. But any dominant I'm with knows this from the very beginning and has accepted it. It's called 'Stella's veto'. I've been put in the position where I have had to top from the bottom, and I've walked. I identify myself as a submissive, and it's for a good reason, i.e. I don't want to have to take control and dominate. I have zero interest in the BDSM paradox in a relationship, i.e. where the dominant is submissive and the submissive dominant. However it's hard to give any concrete examples as I do tend to favour more fluid relationships where it all comes down to communication and is known on both sides beforehand. I find this saves so many problems later on.

LookieNoNookie -> RE: Shouldn't a submissive try to top from the bottom? (6/5/2009 6:27:06 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ACryFromTheSoul Why is it the accepted norm that bottom/submissive/slaves should not try to top from the bottom? I have always hated this hard and fast rule, or the assumption of a rule that seems to state that if one tops from the bottom they are automatically labeled as a brat, a manipulator or someone out for fun and games and little else. Yet what happens if the complete opposite were true, what if topping from the bottom in a limited degree was good for the submissive and the relationship as a whole? (Especially at the start of that relationship) Taking in consideration, the extraordinary amount of individuals who add the title of dominant, master ect to their names without the understanding, knowledge or experience behind it, wouldn’t trying to top from the bottom help the submissive uncover the character of the man she has decided to submit to as well as that of her own? A general gist of the information I believe can be gathered by a submissive: That the dominant can spot – toping from the bottom He might be as smart and/or smarter than she is She starts to learn how he handles toping from the bottom She can see how he reacts His patience level His temperament (ie does he anger/frustrate easily) That he has a stronger will then she does That he is not a push over She can start to feel safe She can start to feel secure She can start to build a comfort zone She can start to feel contained She can start to realize who is in control She can start to realize that she is losing the control (I have kept this in a positive light yet each of these could also be found to be lacking both in the dominant and in submissive herself) While I am not endorsing trying to top from the bottom in the long run, as that hinders the growth process of the relationship. I disagree with the concept that a submissive should not at least try to top from the bottom simply for the reason that it allows both parties to start to realize their roles in the relationship, and for a submissive to start learning her place. Thoughts? Because she's a her person. (Pretty much sums things up).

kitastrophe33 -> RE: Shouldn't a submissive try to top from the bottom? (6/5/2009 7:21:05 PM)
It's nice to see this sentiment. For a time, I had in my profile that my partner was new to this and I was trying to help him learn. I was hoping to gain some insight or tips from dominants to pass on to him, as I am TOTALLY not a domme. While I could (and did) teach him a lot, there are some aspects I felt pretty much incompetent to speak to. Instead of helpful hints I got bombarded with snide, nasty comments about "training my dom" and "topping from the bottom." I eventually took my profile offline. Anyway, I think you're spot on. And I don't think we ever stop learning. GQ quote: A sub I learned a LOT from...and I had an agreement with basically.. was: he was teaching me..in the early days We are all teachers and students...learning and sharing..

sublace -> RE: Shouldn't a submissive try to top from the bottom? (6/15/2009 9:37:13 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ACryFromTheSoul brought tears to my eyes... being vulnerable and completely open to someone ... wow how I desperately want that again. I miss having that. I agree, dominants and well just about anyone does not like to be jerked around. Again, while my post sounded like I am one that plays games... I wrote the post horribly and have been trying to fix that error ever since. sssshhhsshhh i'm cryin too i'm cuddled up pretzel style with whore painted toenails and abstract Vans on my feet. and sunshine, soft cotton pjs berrie garlands and funny bananas rope me in safe. This office chair is too big would cradle us both. There is no emoticon to express new feelings. New to 'my feel' i kind of like it. A LOT ssshhh never alone TY

daddysliloneds -> RE: Shouldn't a submissive try to top from the bottom? (6/15/2009 9:43:14 PM)
if i'm bottoming and he's topping, then i'm not submitting and he's not dominating, so therefore, i should be able to tell him what i want and how to fullfill my needs, just as he should be able to tell me what he wants and how to fullfill his needs... if i'm a submissive bottom to a dominant/top, and i don't communicate with them it gets me in trouble, and if i do communicate with them it gets me in trouble; it's a no-win situation i tell ya[;)]

SirJ40 -> RE: Shouldn't a submissive try to top from the bottom? (6/16/2009 5:05:51 AM)
There's a big difference between making requests or letting Me know how something feels or how it makes her feel, and trying to control the scene / be in charge. Babygirl doesn't try to be in control very often.. mostly because she's a good girl, but also because she's learned how quickly things become non-enjoyable when she does. Chan doesn't seem to have a manipulative bone in her body.. that one is all sub all the time, so she's out of this issue, lol.

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