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RE: Prop 8 ruling makes me wanna kill people... - 5/28/2009 3:41:31 PM   
NihilusZero


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quote:

ORIGINAL: beargonewild

quote:

ORIGINAL: NihilusZero

quote:

ORIGINAL: BKSir

If people want to "protect the sanctity of marriage", they should get rid of Vegas and divorce lawyers/laws.


There is no "sanctity of marriage". The very idea seeks to disenfranchise each individual of the place to determine for themselves what the emotional and ethical value of their marriage means.



Maybe I'm wrong on this but I thought the sanctity of marriage was strictly based upon the values which the couple place upon their union themselves?


That's precisely what I meant.

But when people use the "sanctity" argument, they are normally speaking of some apparent universal holiness that some people's views would taint...and that notion is bollocks.

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RE: Prop 8 ruling makes me wanna kill people... - 5/28/2009 3:43:52 PM   
nelly33


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Status: offline 		but when people speak of sanctity, normally they are not speaking of state sanctioned sanctity, but rather of religious sanctity.  if there is a problem with religions not recognizing gay marriage, then that is a whole nother box of worms... although i'm not sure i interpenetrated your post correctly

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RE: Prop 8 ruling makes me wanna kill people... - 5/28/2009 3:44:08 PM   
NihilusZero


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quote:

ORIGINAL: nelly33

i've said earlier in the thread that i actually support gay marriage... but what i am saying is that nobody is going to support drea with her downtalking to the people that disagree with her... no christian who is opposed to gay marriage is going to change their mind just becuase somebody tells them... "your stupid."  if this thread is just to vent, then fine... bigoted, but fine... but if actually interested in going about changing things, then it fails


Which comes back to my fact that it's kind of depressing that facts alone aren't enough to move people. Not to say I don't value tact and eloquent expression...but the idea that something so clearly bigoted as the refusal to grant marriage to same sex couple could get loopholed by individuals just because they don't like the tone it's being said in...is kinda...sad.


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RE: Prop 8 ruling makes me wanna kill people... - 5/28/2009 3:44:20 PM   
philosophy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: BitaTruble

fr

Before Mod 11 comes in with the bullwhip, can we please stick to attacking posts and points instead of posters. Some of my favorite people are posting here and I'd hate to see 'awaiting approval' by anyone's name. Please?


...yeah, you're right. It's just that sometimes people post things that are so blatantly ******* and *****, that i just lose my temper and post what i really think.....good job i don't own a gun eh?

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RE: Prop 8 ruling makes me wanna kill people... - 5/28/2009 3:45:30 PM   
NihilusZero


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quote:

ORIGINAL: nelly33

i think another point is that some that disagree with the idea of gay marriage don't oppose it to be legally permissible, and i think it is important that just because some think gay marriage is morally wrong, does not mean that they all think it should be illegal... some of us, myself included, are lumping together all people that follow religion, as some outside of this community tend to lump all gays and lesbians together.

Surely there is a difference. And whether I'd even remotely agree with someone who morally opposed gay marriage, I would not infringe on their right to espouse that belief and would have no problem if they aren't seeking to infringe on the rights of others with that belief.


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RE: Prop 8 ruling makes me wanna kill people... - 5/28/2009 3:47:06 PM   
NihilusZero


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quote:

ORIGINAL: nelly33

but when people speak of sanctity, normally they are not speaking of state sanctioned sanctity, but rather of religious sanctity.  if there is a problem with religions not recognizing gay marriage, then that is a whole nother box of worms... although i'm not sure i interpenetrated your post correctly

Is there a "state sanctity" of marriage? I would think that is simply the legal expectations of entering into a one. I don't think I've heard anyone use such a "state sanctity" as an argument against gay marriage...how would that premise even work?


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RE: Prop 8 ruling makes me wanna kill people... - 5/28/2009 3:48:57 PM   
nelly33


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Status: offline 		both good points... but drea has not presented any facts... she just said that not allowing gays to marry is wrong... period.   now you know this in your head, and whether i do or not is irrelevant, but WHY do you know this to be false... because love can be just as strong between gays, because it is a violation of privacy, these to me are reasons supporting why it is unfair... just to say something is wrong needs to be supported, imho

and to counter your last post... yes... judges often call on the state sanctity of marriage, rightfully or wrongly, it does indeed happen.  my point is that when somebody speaks about the sanctity of marriage, they are normally speaking from a religious viewpoint.  i know Christians that support gays legal right to marry/have uinions, but still see marriage as a sin in the eyes of god.  my point is that you will have a much tougher time convincing somebody that their religious idea of sanctity is wrong than you will showing them why legally gays should be allowed to join... if that's worded clearly enough


< Message edited by nelly33 -- 5/28/2009 3:51:32 PM >

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RE: Prop 8 ruling makes me wanna kill people... - 5/28/2009 3:49:26 PM   
subrob1967


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quote:

ORIGINAL: NihilusZero

quote:

ORIGINAL: subrob1967

Can a gay man marry a woman, yes or no? Can a lesbian marry a man, yes or no?

Are they seeking special privilege to marry the same sex, yes or no?

Face the facts, homosexuals have the same rights as heterosexuals, but seek special rights that are different than what heterosexuals are granted...What would YOU call it?


That's the most ridiculous deconstruction of a premise I've read in quite some time.

Surely, with that logic, you support fixed marriages?



Actually I don't support or deny anyone the right to marry anyone they want. If a man wants to marry another man, who am I to say it's wrong?

What I'm saying, is as of now, every gay person has the same right to marry as every hetero person. Just because they're gay, and WANT to marry same sex, has no bearing on the rights they are already granted, which is the exact same right as heterosexuals.

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RE: Prop 8 ruling makes me wanna kill people... - 5/28/2009 3:49:51 PM   
DreamGoddess666


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quote:

ORIGINAL: nelly33

i've said earlier in the thread that i actually support gay marriage... but what i am saying is that nobody is going to support drea with her downtalking to the people that disagree with her... no christian who is opposed to gay marriage is going to change their mind just becuase somebody tells them... "your stupid."  if this thread is just to vent, then fine... bigoted, but fine... but if actually interested in going about changing things, then it fails


Actually my views are far from bigoted. A bigot is one who BLINDLY discriminates based on false pretenses and predjudices. What I'm doing is purely REACTIONARY.

You are basically trying to call me a bigot against bigotry. Do you not realize the absurdity in such a line of thinking? A lot of Christians are bigots against gays; hating them for their hatred of us is not bigotry.

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RE: Prop 8 ruling makes me wanna kill people... - 5/28/2009 3:53:08 PM   
nelly33


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Status: offline 		ummm... that's not the definition of a bigot... 
Main Entry:big·ot Pronunciation: \ˈbi-gət\ Function:noun Etymology:French, hypocrite, bigotDate:1660 : a person obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices ; especially : one who regards or treats the members of a group (as a racial or ethnic group) with hatred and intolerance


there could very well be reasons for being a bigot.

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RE: Prop 8 ruling makes me wanna kill people... - 5/28/2009 3:53:20 PM   
philosophy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DreamGoddess666

A lot of Christians are bigots against gays; hating them for their hatred of us is not bigotry.


Perhaps not...but it's the next best thing. The danger is that you'll blur the line between Christians and those who oppose gay marriage and also happen to be Christians. Christians are not synonymous with bigotry.....although some are bigots.

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RE: Prop 8 ruling makes me wanna kill people... - 5/28/2009 3:53:24 PM   
NihilusZero


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quote:

ORIGINAL: subrob1967

Actually I don't support or deny anyone the right to marry anyone they want. If a man wants to marry another man, who am I to say it's wrong?

What I'm saying, is as of now, every gay person has the same right to marry as every hetero person. Just because they're gay, and WANT to marry same sex, has no bearing on the rights they are already granted, which is the exact same right as heterosexuals.


Your constraining your sets to comply with your pre-chosen equation (it's disingenuous). The "right" is for any individual to marry any other individual of their choosing. Hence the reason why I brought up fixed marriages...because if you're curtailing the limited group of acceptable people that one individual can marry, you are essentially arguing for fixed marriage (on a slight wider scale than individual to individual, granted).

The right to marry the person you want to (presumably love) is what is unequal.


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RE: Prop 8 ruling makes me wanna kill people... - 5/28/2009 3:53:26 PM   
BitaTruble


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quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy


...yeah, you're right. It's just that sometimes people post things that are so blatantly ******* and *****, that i just lose my temper and post what i really think.....good job i don't own a gun eh?


I feel your pain. I've had to delete at least 5 posts already myself. I'm trying to be ::koffs:: good because I do own a gun! lol Standard issue along with your nap blankie when you start kindergarten in Texas dontcha know. lol

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RE: Prop 8 ruling makes me wanna kill people... - 5/28/2009 3:57:11 PM   
purepleasure


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Status: offline 		A lot of Christians are NOT bigoted against GLBT also. 

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RE: Prop 8 ruling makes me wanna kill people... - 5/28/2009 3:57:58 PM   
philosophy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: subrob1967

What I'm saying, is as of now, every gay person has the same right to marry as every hetero person. Just because they're gay, and WANT to marry same sex, has no bearing on the rights they are already granted, which is the exact same right as heterosexuals.



...let's have another go at this. You're putting forth a purely semantic argument. At the moment heterosexuals have the right to marry the person they love and want to spend the rest of their life with. The LGBT community do not have that right. Therefore they do not have the same rights as the straight community. Do you see?
i'm sure you do....because you're not entirely stupid. However i doubt you'll concede the point.

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RE: Prop 8 ruling makes me wanna kill people... - 5/28/2009 3:58:39 PM   
NihilusZero


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quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy

quote:

ORIGINAL: DreamGoddess666

A lot of Christians are bigots against gays; hating them for their hatred of us is not bigotry.


Perhaps not...but it's the next best thing. The danger is that you'll blur the line between Christians and those who oppose gay marriage and also happen to be Christians. Christians are not synonymous with bigotry.....although some are bigots.

Well, she did preface it with "a lot" not "all". Your point, though, does have some unfortunate relevance.

The mistake (at the core) lies in too many people being naive of or ignorant of (intentionally or not) the fact that the agendas they promote hit directly at the personal core of certain people and are the sorts of things that can and will blow up into emotional rage.

It's like a game of seeing how long you can mock a kid's mom in the rudest of ways before he socks you. Sure, that was probably no way to intellectually solve the issue...but it's not as if the reaction is so deep into the realm of incredulity that it deserves only derision.

< Message edited by NihilusZero -- 5/28/2009 4:02:37 PM >

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RE: Prop 8 ruling makes me wanna kill people... - 5/28/2009 3:59:39 PM   
philosophy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: BitaTruble


quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy


...yeah, you're right. It's just that sometimes people post things that are so blatantly ******* and *****, that i just lose my temper and post what i really think.....good job i don't own a gun eh?


I feel your pain. I've had to delete at least 5 posts already myself. I'm trying to be ::koffs:: good because I do own a gun! lol Standard issue along with your nap blankie when you start kindergarten in Texas dontcha know. lol


...i've seen Family Guy, so therefore know that it is State Law to be given a free handgun with every bottle of Jack in Texas.

ETA....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t-lWWFU5qOU

...and this is what happens.......

< Message edited by philosophy -- 5/28/2009 4:03:47 PM >

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RE: Prop 8 ruling makes me wanna kill people... - 5/28/2009 4:01:41 PM   
NihilusZero


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quote:

ORIGINAL: purepleasure

A lot of Christians are NOT bigoted against GLBT also. 

True. For people who are personally affected by the discrimination, though, sometimes it's hard to accurately discriminate (no pun intended) when nearly the entirety of the movement against them is from members of that group.



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RE: Prop 8 ruling makes me wanna kill people... - 5/28/2009 4:15:14 PM   
Kybele


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Status: offline 		Should I meet a woman and fall madly in love with her, I want the ability to offer her the same benefits and rights that I would be able to offer her should I marry a man.

I doubt it, I'm in love with two wonderful men - but still! I want the option and it should be there regardless of which squishy flesh tube is attached to my beloved.

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RE: Prop 8 ruling makes me wanna kill people... - 5/28/2009 4:30:41 PM   
KYsissy


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This might show as a response to a particular post, if so it was unintended.

Marriage brings with it rights that are not available to unmarried people. Such as if one is in the hospital, the spouse has rights as a family member that are not granted to "boyfriends" and "girlfriends".

I think that Gays absolutely should be able to obtain all the legal rights of a marriage with the person they choose. 

A marriage is only as good as the word of the two people entering into it. You can call it anything you want and all it is, is a legal recognition that two individuals have entered into a contract.

Is the word "marriage" a requirement?
Could Marriage be define as a heterosexual union and a civil union be defined as a gay union?

Would Civil Unions, a legal equal to marriage, be acceptable to Gay population? If not I think they need to get over it.

I think the word "marriage" IS sacred to a large chunk of the population. But if those people cannot accept civil unions then they need to get over it.

I think eventually there will be something, whether its called marriage or civil unions, to give willing people the ability to bestow certain legal rights to others.  I think it is just.

And after all this shakes out, polygamy will be next.  Think about it.  Take all the
arguments for gay marriage and instead of "sex" insert "number".

Logically, if the sex of the participants doesn't matter, why should the number?  And why should the government care what domestic arrangements people desire to enter?


Just my 2 cents worth.

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