Collarspace Discussion Forums


Home  Login  Search 

RE: Prop 8 ruling makes me wanna kill people...


View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest
 
All Forums >> [Community Discussions] >> Dungeon of Political and Religious Discussion >> RE: Prop 8 ruling makes me wanna kill people... Page: <<   < prev  14 15 [16] 17 18   next >   >>
Login
Message << Older Topic   Newer Topic >>
RE: Prop 8 ruling makes me wanna kill people... - 5/28/2009 9:23:58 PM   
subrob1967


Posts: 4591
Joined: 9/13/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy

quote:

ORIGINAL: subrob1967

What I'm saying, is as of now, every gay person has the same right to marry as every hetero person. Just because they're gay, and WANT to marry same sex, has no bearing on the rights they are already granted, which is the exact same right as heterosexuals.



...let's have another go at this. You're putting forth a purely semantic argument. At the moment heterosexuals have the right to marry the person they love and want to spend the rest of their life with. The LGBT community do not have that right. Therefore they do not have the same rights as the straight community. Do you see?
i'm sure you do....because you're not entirely stupid. However i doubt you'll concede the point.


You're wrong, it is exactly the same right. A hetero man can't marry his dog, or his car, or his shotgun, can he? Neither can a gay man.

I understand your point about love, but just how many marriages are due to love, as opposed to other factors, like money, titles, business decisions, or politics?

Again, I'll say I think anyone should be able to marry anyone they want to, within reason (arraigned marriages.) But to claim the gays aren't equal to hetero, because of love is disingenuous.

(in reply to philosophy)
Profile   Post #: 301
RE: Prop 8 ruling makes me wanna kill people... - 5/28/2009 9:30:49 PM   
NihilusZero


Posts: 4036
Joined: 9/10/2008
From: Nashville, TN
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: subrob1967

Call it disingenuous all you want, it still doesn't change the fact that a gay man can marry the same woman as a hetero man can.  That means he has the same, i.e. equal rights as a hetero.

quote:

We hold these Truths to be self-evident, that all Men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain inalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.

Do show me where your imaginary footnote of (so long as that happiness involves a heterosexual partner) is hidden away in.

But I do see your point in a weird sideways manner: like you have the right to hold a nonsensical notion of what "rights" means while I choose not to. Technically, I guess I still have the right to entertain stupid ideas into my head...regardless of whether I'd want to or not.

Touché.

< Message edited by NihilusZero -- 5/28/2009 9:38:12 PM >

_____________________________

"I know it's all a game
I know they're all insane
I know it's all in vain
I know that I'm to blame."
~Siouxsie & the Banshees

NihilusZero.com

CM Sex God du Jour
CM Hall Monitor

(in reply to subrob1967)
Profile   Post #: 302
RE: Prop 8 ruling makes me wanna kill people... - 5/28/2009 9:34:08 PM   
NihilusZero


Posts: 4036
Joined: 9/10/2008
From: Nashville, TN
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: subrob1967
But to claim the gays aren't equal to hetero, because of love is disingenuous.


Seriously, your tortured logic is laughable. Let's try again:

The right of marriage involves a consensual adult being free to marry any other consensual adult that they desire.

You can stick your fingers in your ears and 'La La La' that equal marriage rights somehow magically means only options to engage in such unions with people with heterosexual tendencies (how does your flimsy logic even handle bisexual people? Do they get half rights? ) but that notion exists only in the fanciful concoctions of your own head.

_____________________________

"I know it's all a game
I know they're all insane
I know it's all in vain
I know that I'm to blame."
~Siouxsie & the Banshees

NihilusZero.com

CM Sex God du Jour
CM Hall Monitor

(in reply to subrob1967)
Profile   Post #: 303
RE: Prop 8 ruling makes me wanna kill people... - 5/28/2009 9:37:07 PM   
NihilusZero


Posts: 4036
Joined: 9/10/2008
From: Nashville, TN
Status: offline 		(emphasis mine)
quote:

ORIGINAL: subrob1967

You're wrong, it is exactly the same right. A hetero man can't marry his dog, or his car, or his shotgun, can he? Neither can a gay man.

Finally, you become honest. "Right". Singular. Sure, the "right" to marry a heterosexual person is one right available to any free person in the country.

You realize there's more than just one "right"....right?

This specific "right" you are fixated on, certainly is equal among heteros and homosexuals. The full expanse of rights (that clearly everyone else in the thread is able to understand encompasses what we're dealing with) is, on the other hand, clearly not equal.

< Message edited by NihilusZero -- 5/28/2009 9:38:45 PM >

_____________________________

"I know it's all a game
I know they're all insane
I know it's all in vain
I know that I'm to blame."
~Siouxsie & the Banshees

NihilusZero.com

CM Sex God du Jour
CM Hall Monitor

(in reply to subrob1967)
Profile   Post #: 304
RE: Prop 8 ruling makes me wanna kill people... - 5/28/2009 10:07:59 PM   
subharlequin


Posts: 54
Joined: 2/20/2009
Status: offline 		quote:

ORIGINAL: subrob1967

You're wrong, it is exactly the same right. A hetero man can't marry his dog, or his car, or his shotgun, can he? Neither can a gay man.
=
=
=
=
he may not be able to marry objects or animals..but he can apparently marry a city. did dennis rodman and new york city get devorced yet or are they still married?


*runs off to the beginning of the thread*

(in reply to NihilusZero)
Profile   Post #: 305
RE: Prop 8 ruling makes me wanna kill people... - 5/28/2009 11:02:30 PM   
LadyPact


Posts: 32566
Status: offline 		I read through to the fourth page, and then I couldn't take it anymore.

You know, I'd be thrilled if there was even one state in this country that would recognize My little poly family as a civil union.  I honestly don't give a damn if the word "marriage" is never a term that I can use for anyone but MP and Myself.  I often shake My head and wonder exactly how much of these types of debates are about ownership of that one word.

If I had the same, or even secondary rights regarding clip as his wife does, I'd be thrilled.  From a legal standpoint, I don't even have the right to be notified if he's killed in action.  That's right.  That's even less than what most people, regardless of their sexual orientation have.  I don't care if I can't ever call him My second husband, or if we're legally 'married' in some way.  Those particular words don't matter to Me.  Call it whatever the religious, or the political, or even the zealots want.  Just give Me the rights.

Unlike same sex couples, My company doesn't recognize My poly family for bereavement benefits.  If clip were to be killed in action, I have no right to time off.  I get no discount through the airline should I have to schedule that last minute flight if his remains are brought home.  I have no say in removing life support if his body is being kept alive, even though his brain might be dead.  I have no right to his personal effects, nor the flag that would cover his coffin should he be killed during duty.

Believe it or not, Lindsey, you're not exactly on the bottom of the totem pole.  There are many poly families on these boards that don't even have the things you are turning your nose up at and you have no gratitude for.  You are so angry that all you can do is talk.  Sometimes, you should listen.


_____________________________

The crowned Diva of Destruction. ~ ExT

Beach Ball Sized Lady Nuts. ~ TWD

Happily dating a new submissive. It's official. I've named him engie.

Please do not send me email here. Unless I know you, I will delete the email unread

(in reply to subharlequin)
Profile   Post #: 306
RE: Prop 8 ruling makes me wanna kill people... - 5/28/2009 11:06:19 PM   
GreedyTop


Posts: 52100
Joined: 5/2/2007
From: Savannah, GA
Status: offline 		well said, Lady P... warmest regards to you all 

_____________________________

polysnortatious
Supreme Goddess of Snark
CHARTER MEMBER: Lance's Fag Hags!
Waiting for my madman in a Blue Box.

(in reply to LadyPact)
Profile   Post #: 307
RE: Prop 8 ruling makes me wanna kill people... - 5/29/2009 12:12:17 AM   
philosophy


Posts: 5284
Joined: 2/15/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: subrob1967

I understand your point about love, but just how many marriages are due to love, as opposed to other factors, like money, titles, business decisions, or politics?



.....ah, now i understand. You poor, poor man. In your world people don't usually marry for love. Which explains your bizarre understanding of the issue. i feel incredibly sorry for you.

(in reply to subrob1967)
Profile   Post #: 308
RE: Prop 8 ruling makes me wanna kill people... - 5/29/2009 12:12:39 AM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline 		Finally!!!!

thank you LP.  its what i have been saying all along!!

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to LadyPact)
Profile   Post #: 309
RE: Prop 8 ruling makes me wanna kill people... - 5/29/2009 12:15:42 AM   
LadyPact


Posts: 32566
Status: offline 		My thanks to you, GT and tazzy.  

_____________________________

The crowned Diva of Destruction. ~ ExT

Beach Ball Sized Lady Nuts. ~ TWD

Happily dating a new submissive. It's official. I've named him engie.

Please do not send me email here. Unless I know you, I will delete the email unread

(in reply to tazzygirl)
Profile   Post #: 310
RE: Prop 8 ruling makes me wanna kill people... - 5/29/2009 1:23:58 AM   
subrob1967


Posts: 4591
Joined: 9/13/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy
.....ah, now i understand. You poor, poor man. In your world people don't usually marry for love. Which explains your bizarre understanding of the issue. i feel incredibly sorry for you.


Throughout history most people didn't marry for love, and if love is you're only motivation, you are the one I feel sorry for.

(in reply to philosophy)
Profile   Post #: 311
RE: Prop 8 ruling makes me wanna kill people... - 5/29/2009 2:26:12 AM   
WyldHrt


Posts: 6412
Joined: 6/5/2008
Status: offline
quote:

.....ah, now i understand. You poor, poor man. In your world people don't usually marry for love. Which explains your bizarre understanding of the issue. i feel incredibly sorry for you.

Well said, Philosophy. I'll stop poking subrob now (not that he responded to my post to him anyway), as some people just don't get it.


_____________________________

"MotherFUCKER!" is NOT a safeword!!"- Steel
"We've had complaints about 'orgy noises'. This is not the neighborhood for that kind of thing"- PVE Cop

Resident "Hypnotic Eyes", "Cleavage" and "Toy Whore"
Subby Mafia, VAA Posse & Team Troll!

(in reply to philosophy)
Profile   Post #: 312
RE: Prop 8 ruling makes me wanna kill people... - 5/29/2009 2:54:12 AM   
sirsholly


Posts: 42360
Joined: 9/7/2007
From: Quietville
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: subrob1967

quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy
.....ah, now i understand. You poor, poor man. In your world people don't usually marry for love. Which explains your bizarre understanding of the issue. i feel incredibly sorry for you.


Throughout history most people didn't marry for love, and if love is you're only motivation, you are the one I feel sorry for.

Subrob...some of us have married for no reason other than love. If you want to give your sympathies, feel free. But i assure you they are not needed.


_____________________________

PICKED UPON
TECHNO-DOLT
MEMBER OF THE SUBBIE MAFIA
GRACEFULLY CHALLENGED :::::splat:::::
BOOT WHORE
VAA/S FAN

GIVES GOOD HEART (Lushy)

CREATOR OF MAYHEM (practice)


(in reply to subrob1967)
Profile   Post #: 313
RE: Prop 8 ruling makes me wanna kill people... - 5/29/2009 2:59:38 AM   
sirsholly


Posts: 42360
Joined: 9/7/2007
From: Quietville
Status: offline
quote:

Unfortunately, it's still a fact that a MAJORITY of Christians (and Catholics, Jews, and Muslims) are against gay marriage and therefore bigots. 


Please site your source.

It sounds to me like these outrageous statements are your opinion as opposed to fact. It also sounds like you are full of it.

Prove me wrong. Site your source.


_____________________________

PICKED UPON
TECHNO-DOLT
MEMBER OF THE SUBBIE MAFIA
GRACEFULLY CHALLENGED :::::splat:::::
BOOT WHORE
VAA/S FAN

GIVES GOOD HEART (Lushy)

CREATOR OF MAYHEM (practice)


(in reply to DreamGoddess666)
Profile   Post #: 314
RE: Prop 8 ruling makes me wanna kill people... - 5/29/2009 3:21:41 AM   
DreamGoddess666


Posts: 88
Joined: 5/21/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: sirsholly

quote:

Unfortunately, it's still a fact that a MAJORITY of Christians (and Catholics, Jews, and Muslims) are against gay marriage and therefore bigots. 


Please site your source.

It sounds to me like these outrageous statements are your opinion as opposed to fact. It also sounds like you are full of it.

Prove me wrong. Site your source.



Excuse me, I have three of the four. Apparently Jews aren't as against it as the other three (which is ironic given that the Torah includes the Book of Leviticus, which is the primary anti-gay book of the Bible, but I disgress).

First you can see in the voting here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/California_Proposition_8_(2008)

65% of Protestants and 64% of Catholics right there.

For the Muslims, I simply direct your attention to the Middle East, where homosexuality is a capital offense. That one's a no brainer.

Why do you demand people cite sources that you, as an adult, can easily find via a rudimentary search, and probably already knew to begin with? You just get a kick out of demanding proof. Personally, I find it silly to need to prove the obvious. Do I need to prove gravity next?

< Message edited by DreamGoddess666 -- 5/29/2009 3:22:59 AM >

(in reply to sirsholly)
Profile   Post #: 315
RE: Prop 8 ruling makes me wanna kill people... - 5/29/2009 3:35:40 AM   
sirsholly


Posts: 42360
Joined: 9/7/2007
From: Quietville
Status: offline
quote:

Why do you demand people cite sources that you, as an adult, can easily find via a rudimentary search, and probably already knew to begin with? You just get a kick out of demanding proof. Personally, I find it silly to need to prove the obvious.


yep...it is how i get my jollies.

If you are going to make outrageous claims, then it is your responsibility to back it up...not mine.

And again...i ask that you site your source. You did not do so. I feel you cannot.

Please show PROOF that
quote:


a fact that a majority of Christians (and Catholics, Jews, and Muslims) are against gay marriage and are therefore bigots.


and by the way, cupcake...Catholics ARE Christians.




_____________________________

PICKED UPON
TECHNO-DOLT
MEMBER OF THE SUBBIE MAFIA
GRACEFULLY CHALLENGED :::::splat:::::
BOOT WHORE
VAA/S FAN

GIVES GOOD HEART (Lushy)

CREATOR OF MAYHEM (practice)


(in reply to DreamGoddess666)
Profile   Post #: 316
RE: Prop 8 ruling makes me wanna kill people... - 5/29/2009 3:48:39 AM   
GreedyTop


Posts: 52100
Joined: 5/2/2007
From: Savannah, GA
Status: offline 		Holly... *shakes head* tsk tsk tsk.  

_____________________________

polysnortatious
Supreme Goddess of Snark
CHARTER MEMBER: Lance's Fag Hags!
Waiting for my madman in a Blue Box.

(in reply to sirsholly)
Profile   Post #: 317
RE: Prop 8 ruling makes me wanna kill people... - 5/29/2009 3:53:46 AM   
sirsholly


Posts: 42360
Joined: 9/7/2007
From: Quietville
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: GreedyTop

Holly... *shakes head* tsk tsk tsk.  


wa?


_____________________________

PICKED UPON
TECHNO-DOLT
MEMBER OF THE SUBBIE MAFIA
GRACEFULLY CHALLENGED :::::splat:::::
BOOT WHORE
VAA/S FAN

GIVES GOOD HEART (Lushy)

CREATOR OF MAYHEM (practice)


(in reply to GreedyTop)
Profile   Post #: 318
RE: Prop 8 ruling makes me wanna kill people... - 5/29/2009 3:57:30 AM   
BitaTruble


Posts: 9779
Joined: 1/12/2006
From: Texas
Status: offline
quote:

Excuse me, I have three of the four. Apparently Jews aren't as against it as the other three


A couple of things, DG; around these parts Wiki is not considered a credible source because of the ability for an end user to add or subtract information at will. Second, again around these parts, when one makes a statement of fact, it is up to them to 'prove' because nothing is taken at face value just because a poster said so. Just some stuff to help you out in navigating the forums.

I understand that you think people should do their own homework and I agree with you, but you have to do yours first and that means citation of credible sources then the onus falls to the other guy to prove you wrong. That's just the way it works around here.


% of population who approve of gay marriage by country

Doctrine on gay marriage by religion

_____________________________

"Oh, so it's just like
Rock, paper, scissors."

He laughed. "You are the wisest woman I know."


(in reply to DreamGoddess666)
Profile   Post #: 319
RE: Prop 8 ruling makes me wanna kill people... - 5/29/2009 3:58:17 AM   
LafayetteLady


Posts: 7683
Joined: 5/2/2007
From: Northern New Jersey
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact

I read through to the fourth page, and then I couldn't take it anymore.

 
At the moment, I'm right there with you.

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact

If I had the same, or even secondary rights regarding clip as his wife does, I'd be thrilled.  From a legal standpoint, I don't even have the right to be notified if he's killed in action.  That's right.  That's even less than what most people, regardless of their sexual orientation have. 



quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact

Unlike same sex couples, My company doesn't recognize My poly family for bereavement benefits.  If clip were to be killed in action, I have no right to time off.   I have no say in removing life support if his body is being kept alive, even though his brain might be dead.  I have no right to his personal effects, nor the flag that would cover his coffin should he be killed during duty.


Not really, a spouse is considered next of kin.  If clip were your brother and he had a wife, you wouldn't receive DIRECT notification either.  If clip were your CHILD and was married, you wouldn't have the choice about removing him from life support, you wouldn't get the flag.  There is only one flag, so who would you say is entitled to it in a poly family?  With life support, the immediate next of kin is given the weight of deciding life support unless there is an advance directive.  You aren't entitled to time off from work if your grandparent were to die either.
 
LadyPact, I agree that there are many types of civil unions that might need some recognition.  But let's just look at the situation a bit differently.  If and and clip were a heterosexual couple is simply living together, and has made the choice not to marry, you would not be entitled to a single thing mentioned above either.  Your company would not be required to give you time off should he die, you aren't entitled to the flag, etc.
 
I am by no means attempting to diminsh your family relationships, but given only one flag, why do you believe YOU would be entitled over his wife?  It would seem he has at least two important relationships, why should you be put ahead of the other?  Again, I don't mean anything against your relationship, or any poly families.  You could be the spouse (gay or straight) and still not have the right to decide on life support, as it can be given to someone else.
 
In any case, progress takes place slowly.  At one point in time, blacks and whites were not permitted by law to marry.  Now they are.  One step at a time.  Have you or other poly families ever attempted to figure out how to rectify the situation or attempt to create your own proposition to resolve your issue?  Gay marriage is getting the attention, the proposition, etc. because gays are fighting for it.
 
Certainly, one on one relationships are much easier to "divide" and make some of the decisions you mention above.  There are also healthcare (primary, secondary, teriary, etc.), family leave, support should one of the relationships end and who is responsible, etc.
 
I would be very interested in seeing how those issues would be resolved, and would support an argument for you to have the rights that you seek, but resolutions for those types of issues would have to be spelled out for you to even get footing in getting that right. 
 
In the situation of gay marriage, all current marriage and divorce laws would easily apply without the need for adjustment.  While I would support the idea of you getting the rights that you seek, I don't think that mainstream society is quite ready for that yet.  Look how long it has taken the gay community to get a foothold.

Believe it or not, Lindsey, you're not exactly on the bottom of the totem pole.  There are many poly families on these boards that don't even have the things you are turning your nose up at and you have no gratitude for.  You are so angry that all you can do is talk.  Sometimes, you should listen.


(in reply to LadyPact)
Profile   Post #: 320
Page:   <<   < prev  14 15 [16] 17 18   next >   >>
All Forums >> [Community Discussions] >> Dungeon of Political and Religious Discussion >> RE: Prop 8 ruling makes me wanna kill people... Page: <<   < prev  14 15 [16] 17 18   next >   >>
Jump to:





New Messages No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages Locked w/o New Messages
 Post New Thread
 Reply to Message
 Post New Poll
 Submit Vote
 Delete My Own Post
 Delete My Own Thread
 Rate Posts




Collarchat.com © 2025
Terms of Service Privacy Policy Spam Policy

0.094