RE: Prop 8 ruling makes me wanna kill people... (Full Version)

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beargonewild -> RE: Prop 8 ruling makes me wanna kill people... (5/28/2009 4:38:20 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: KYsissy

I think the word "marriage" IS sacred to a large chunk of the population. But if those people cannot accept civil unions then they need to get over it.

I think eventually there will be something, whether its called marriage or civil unions, to give willing people the ability to bestow certain legal rights to others.  I think it is just.



Yet when you strip away all the extraneous hype over the definition of marriage, the only valid definition is how it is defined by the two people in a marriage.




tazzygirl -> RE: Prop 8 ruling makes me wanna kill people... (5/28/2009 4:43:21 PM)

a Native American Tribe (cant recall the name at the moment... went back and found it....Coquille Indian Tribe ) wants to give members the right to same sex marriages.. freely and willingly.. and afford them all the benefits and resources heterosexual couples enjoy, under the tribal laws.

sounds great, yes?

a perfect solution?

sadly not.  DOMA looms.  folks, until this is overturned, even the tribes cannot give what gays want.

http://pewforum.org/news/rss.php?NewsID=16420



KYsissy -> RE: Prop 8 ruling makes me wanna kill people... (5/28/2009 4:43:46 PM)

Exactly! That what I was trying to convey by this,
quote:


A marriage is only as good as the word of the two people entering into it. You can call it anything you want and all it is, is a legal recognition that two individuals have entered into a contract.


But you said it better.



rulemylife -> RE: Prop 8 ruling makes me wanna kill people... (5/28/2009 4:58:25 PM)

And on a lighter note:

• Openly gay teen voted prom queen at L.A. high school


LOS ANGELES – An openly gay teen has been voted prom queen at his Los Angeles high school in a campaign that began as a stunt but ended up spurring discussion on the campus about gender roles and popularity.

Sergio Garcia said he felt "invincible" when he was crowned queen of the Fairfax High School dance at the Hollywood Roosevelt Hotel on Saturday.

Days before the dance, Garcia told fellow students that he was "not your typical prom queen candidate. There's more to me than meets the eye."



tazzygirl -> RE: Prop 8 ruling makes me wanna kill people... (5/28/2009 5:08:17 PM)

yay for Garcia!!!



philosophy -> RE: Prop 8 ruling makes me wanna kill people... (5/28/2009 5:33:59 PM)

........among all the doom and gloom this thread refers to, that story really cheered me up. Good for Garcia......and well done that school. [:)]



BitaTruble -> RE: Prop 8 ruling makes me wanna kill people... (5/28/2009 5:46:12 PM)

Yay Fairfax High School! I'm glad Sergio is 18 so I can offer hearty congrats to him! [sm=cheerleader.gif][sm=cheerleader.gif][sm=champ.gif][sm=cheerleader.gif][sm=cheerleader.gif]

Educate the youth, change the world. It works because "The mind, once expanded to the dimensions of larger ideas, never returns to its original size." Oliver Wendell Holmes



NihilusZero -> RE: Prop 8 ruling makes me wanna kill people... (5/28/2009 7:17:17 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: KYsissy

I think the word "marriage" IS sacred to a large chunk of the population. But if those people cannot accept civil unions then they need to get over it.

Who "needs to get over it"? Same sex couples that they only get "civil unions" or hetero-religio folks that gays are to be afforded the same thing?

quote:

ORIGINAL: KYsissy

And after all this shakes out, polygamy will be next.  Think about it.  Take all the
arguments for gay marriage and instead of "sex" insert "number".

Logically, if the sex of the participants doesn't matter, why should the number?  And why should the government care what domestic arrangements people desire to enter?

Decent follow-through. Are you saying that, eventually, polyamorous folks should be refused the right to multi-marry?



NihilusZero -> RE: Prop 8 ruling makes me wanna kill people... (5/28/2009 7:20:27 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

And on a lighter note:

• Openly gay teen voted prom queen at L.A. high school


LOS ANGELES – An openly gay teen has been voted prom queen at his Los Angeles high school in a campaign that began as a stunt but ended up spurring discussion on the campus about gender roles and popularity.

Sergio Garcia said he felt "invincible" when he was crowned queen of the Fairfax High School dance at the Hollywood Roosevelt Hotel on Saturday.

Days before the dance, Garcia told fellow students that he was "not your typical prom queen candidate. There's more to me than meets the eye."


That's totally storybook-adorable. *chuckle*



nelly33 -> RE: Prop 8 ruling makes me wanna kill people... (5/28/2009 7:45:16 PM)

umm... yes, polygamy is illegal not just on moral grounds, but because of the reasons stated that boyfriends and girlfriends can't get into the hospitals, can't get the same insurance benefits, etc.  a company that employs a polygamist should give health insurance to 4 grown adults and all of their children because of the multi-marriage?  no way insurance companies go for it... and imho, nor should they.



NihilusZero -> RE: Prop 8 ruling makes me wanna kill people... (5/28/2009 7:57:41 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: nelly33

umm... yes, polygamy is illegal not just on moral grounds,

Surely you're speaking of the common notion of polygamy where underage girls are wed to older men and where the dynamic is relatively non-sonsensual rather than just the willing union of multiple people, yes?

quote:

ORIGINAL: nelly33

but because of the reasons stated that boyfriends and girlfriends can't get into the hospitals, can't get the same insurance benefits, etc.  a company that employs a polygamist should give health insurance to 4 grown adults and all of their children because of the multi-marriage?  no way insurance companies go for it... and imho, nor should they.

That is likely an inescapable part of what it would boil down to and I'm sure monetary coverage would have to be adjusted so as to entertain a marriage where more than two people are present. As far as simply the thical freedom to do so, though, there's no reason to otherwise hinder that option.



nelly33 -> RE: Prop 8 ruling makes me wanna kill people... (5/28/2009 8:20:18 PM)

in EVERY american notion of marriage that is accepted by (made up statistic) at least one in 1000 people, it's between two people... most commonly man and a woman, but also in some circles man and man, or woman and woman.  if the idea of a "marriage" offends the VAST majority of people in the US, then it cannot be considered a marriage by those people... and no, i am not referring to just those underage polygamous marriages.  when it comes to gay marriage, i agree that people should be able to marry who they want, but in MY mind, and the mind of my religion, marriage is between two people.  if you say that marriage can encompass anything, what does the institution really mean?  and it's not just insurance companies... if a spouse dies, who gets the children?  the child may not feel closest to the biological mother, but does she get it if the father dies?  there are too many problems, and i doubt the public will even entertain the idea in the next hundred years... and i agree with that.



DreamGoddess666 -> RE: Prop 8 ruling makes me wanna kill people... (5/28/2009 8:21:35 PM)

Unfortunately, it's still a fact that a MAJORITY of Christians (and Catholics, Jews, and Muslims) are against gay marriage and therefore bigots. There are numerous polls and studies out there for you to see that will prove this. Over 50% of people in these religions oppose it. Therefore, the term "most" applies. Not all, but "most".

I really don't like how people try to act as if the anti-gay crowd of the religious right is but a minority and some sort of radical fringe group. That's simply not the case! If it were, not one state would have been able to ban gay marriage.



Kybele -> RE: Prop 8 ruling makes me wanna kill people... (5/28/2009 8:23:31 PM)

Can we please not automatically conflate polygamy as practiced by such charmers as the FLDS with consensual, non-abusive polyamory as practiced by many people, including people on this board?

Thank you eversomuch.



nelly33 -> RE: Prop 8 ruling makes me wanna kill people... (5/28/2009 8:28:48 PM)

umm... opposing something doesn't make you a bigot... for example, i oppose polygamous marriages, but i think that a polyamorous lifestyle is fine, as long as marriage isn't involved... i just think to LEGALLY get married to multiple people is a good idea... i don't believe that makes me a bigot... but if it does i'll wear that hat in this case...
also, show me your poles please... i'd love to see them.



Kybele -> RE: Prop 8 ruling makes me wanna kill people... (5/28/2009 8:43:34 PM)

I don't understand why marriage in a polyamorous group is so offensive, nelly. Maybe it's just me being a dunce, but I don't think so.

All marriage is, in the modern-day United States, is a contract between consenting adults that confers certain benefits, protections and rights automatically. Anything else is religious, and not the function of the government, but of a church, synagogue, mosque, temple, grove, etc etc ad infinitum.

I would love for both the men in my life to be able to visit me in the hospital before I died, should such a thing happen, without it being subject to the religious mores of a group of which I am not a member, and whose standards I have no interest in following. I am actually going to talk to a lawyer about a power-of-attorney for them both, and make sure they're in agreement about the important things.

But, really - consenting adults. I see no moral or ethical qualms about more than two who love each other, only religious queasiness - and that's not good enough to force others into obedience, I don't think.



NihilusZero -> RE: Prop 8 ruling makes me wanna kill people... (5/28/2009 8:46:24 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: nelly33

in EVERY american notion of marriage that is accepted by (made up statistic) at least one in 1000 people, it's between two people... most commonly man and a woman, but also in some circles man and man, or woman and woman.  if the idea of a "marriage" offends the VAST majority of people in the US, then it cannot be considered a marriage by those people...

If your point is that this country still has a number of years/decades to go in the civilization-evolutionary process before the greater portio of the population actually thinks and acts with ethical sensibility, then I'd agree with you.

Other than that, your argument is a historical argumentum ad populum. Whether most people aren't ready to admit to something being ethically fair and logical does not mean it's not ethically fair and logical.

quote:

ORIGINAL: nelly33

and no, i am not referring to just those underage polygamous marriages.  when it comes to gay marriage, i agree that people should be able to marry who they want, but in MY mind, and the mind of my religion, marriage is between two people.

Which is precisely why marriage is and should remain solely a secular and legal union.

quote:

ORIGINAL: nelly33

if you say that marriage can encompass anything, what does the institution really mean?

It means that love can encompass more than what just what you want out of a relationship. Imagine that. [:)]

quote:

ORIGINAL: nelly33

and it's not just insurance companies... if a spouse dies, who gets the children?  the child may not feel closest to the biological mother, but does she get it if the father dies?  there are too many problems,

Well, let's give up trying to fix the economy (for starters) if "too many problems" are reason to intellectually abandon an issue.

quote:

ORIGINAL: nelly33

and i doubt the public will even entertain the idea in the next hundred years... and i agree with that.

A sad likelihood for the public.



NihilusZero -> RE: Prop 8 ruling makes me wanna kill people... (5/28/2009 8:58:07 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: nelly33

umm... opposing something doesn't make you a bigot... for example, i oppose polygamous marriages, but i think that a polyamorous lifestyle is fine, as long as marriage isn't involved... i just think to LEGALLY get married to multiple people is a good idea... i don't believe that makes me a bigot... but if it does i'll wear that hat in this case...

It depends on your reasons for wanting to discriminate against that group.

quote:

ORIGINAL: nelly33

also, show me your poles please... i'd love to see them.


Really...it's not a leap of logic by any question to presume that certain religious groups heavily lean towards disallowing same-sex marriages because the arguments are nearly unilaterally religiously formulated.

This excerpt taken from a field poll last year in California:

quote:

While more Protestants and Catholics disapprove than approve of allowing gays and lesbians to marry, large majorities of those affiliated with other religions (61%) and especially those who have no religious preference (81%) approve. Voters describing themselves as born again Christians are decidedly against allowing same-sex marriage, 68% to 24%. This contrasts with the opinions of all other voters, who are supportive 58% to 35%.


(Full report available here in .pdf format.)



NihilusZero -> RE: Prop 8 ruling makes me wanna kill people... (5/28/2009 9:10:08 PM)

And another from last year:

quote:

Religion also plays an important role in determining the public’s views on the issue. Those who attend worship services once a week or more are much more likely to oppose same-sex marriage (73%) than those who attend less often (43% opposed). Opinion also varies quite dramatically across religions. About eight-in-ten evangelicals (81% of white evangelicals and 79% of black evangelicals) oppose gay marriage...


(Full page here, which admittedly paints a less stark picture with Protestants and Catholics, but points out the overwhelming evangelical bias and how attendance of worship services also plays a factor.)



subrob1967 -> RE: Prop 8 ruling makes me wanna kill people... (5/28/2009 9:16:21 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: NihilusZero

quote:

ORIGINAL: subrob1967

Actually I don't support or deny anyone the right to marry anyone they want. If a man wants to marry another man, who am I to say it's wrong?

What I'm saying, is as of now, every gay person has the same right to marry as every hetero person. Just because they're gay, and WANT to marry same sex, has no bearing on the rights they are already granted, which is the exact same right as heterosexuals.


Your constraining your sets to comply with your pre-chosen equation (it's disingenuous). The "right" is for any individual to marry any other individual of their choosing. Hence the reason why I brought up fixed marriages...because if you're curtailing the limited group of acceptable people that one individual can marry, you are essentially arguing for fixed marriage (on a slight wider scale than individual to individual, granted).

The right to marry the person you want to (presumably love) is what is unequal.



It's not MY pre-chosen equation, it is a fact. I am not curtailing anyone, society is. A lot of things are unequal, and until mankind changes [8|] there will never be equality, regardless of what the Bill of Rights says.

Call it disingenuous all you want, it still doesn't change the fact that a gay man can marry the same woman as a hetero man can.  That means he has the same, i.e. equal rights as a hetero.



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