RE: Dominant's Catch-22? (Full Version)

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colouredin -> RE: Dominant's Catch-22? (5/30/2009 8:00:17 AM)

Oh sorry, its just it wasnt a mis-spelling, it was just the wrong word.




GYPZYQUEEN -> RE: Dominant's Catch-22? (5/30/2009 8:19:42 AM)

I love it on here...
If someone feels the need to call me on  what they think is MY  bullshit..
and does..great!,,
or needs more info..or questions intent...great

and I feel I can do the same

I stop look, listen , assess and take what I want a leave the rest..
and feel others can do the same
 
It is a LEARNING thing for sure...
I have gleaned scads of knowledge since being on this short time

I have had different reactions to different posts..had debates..and more and for the most part..I have been met with wonderful..polite...intelligent reponses from ppl who care....and have a genuine vested interest in BDSM..and LIVE IT...share it..and also seek to dispell ,dibilitating narrow notions and beliefs..

[:)]There is FREEDOM OF EXPRESSION here...for sure...[:D]

GQ




Missokyst -> RE: Dominant's Catch-22? (5/30/2009 8:22:55 AM)

I don't know.  I am not a dominant but I can tell you from my pov, I don't post for validation.  I post to express.  I hope that others do that as well, but more often than not, I do see many seeking validation.  It is a human need to fit in or know that what you are doing is ok.  lol I just missed that part of the equation somewhere along the line.

Personally I see nothing wrong with people asking for help on this or that.  I "raised up" a few dominants by topping from the bottom until they got into the rhythm.  LOL And OMG the horrors of admitting to that.  Heck, do they think people are born knowing how to be?  Being fairly secure in who and what I am, is a fortunate place there is very little fear of knowing someone does not have the same experience as I.  And once I trust them they have often taken me to places I never thought I could go.

But those posts of "my master wants me to tell me how I should be punished" ect.. well that does seem a bit lazy to me.  Not because I am a seasoned sub, but because I am a MOM.  LOL When something came up in my family you better believe I knew how to handle it, and to do it on the spot.  There was never any desire to find out how my family might have done it before me, I chose to walk my own path.  I don't know if it is a dominant trait but it is a trait I want to have in my mate.  Observe, examine, determine, execute, admit mistakes but don't dwell in being wrong.  Having to ask how to punish is telling me that he didn't take the time to learn how his subs mind works.  Having strangers tell him what they do is like them saying I like folgers coffee, I like starbucks, but what if the sub needs tea?  Why didn't he take the time to learn that from her?
It lacks communication and smacks of laziness from my pov.

As for tops disease.. I am still not sure what I feel about that.  There are times it seems more like dominating and bullying.  It is an individual case by case thing based on what is presented in a post. of course we mostly only hear one side of the story.  In a forum such as this when you only have one side I can see where people will judge.  One either has to be strong enough to stand up to the whip or run away tossing rocks as you exit.
Kyst 





LadyHibiscus -> RE: Dominant's Catch-22? (5/30/2009 8:45:13 AM)

I agree with Wyld---been here for years, if there is a clique, I am so deep in the middle of it as not to notice. 

The kinds of posts that make my head explode are the ones that seem so obviously wanky, like "choose my punishment", or "what's a good humiliation?".  If they were worded differently, to ask about the results of kinds of punishements, or how those kinds of dynamics worked in real time, I wouldn't be so annoyed.  I am not into punishment, but if I were?  I would not need to ask for assistance.  I might need to ask how to deal with Problem Child X, though!

Lately, the bitch factor on the boards has boosted, I think.  I have some ideas as to why, but that's not germane.  I do think that everyone is likely to have rocks hurled at them, it's just that the OP and I notice that our half of the game gets more shrapnel! 




windchymes -> RE: Dominant's Catch-22? (5/30/2009 10:08:47 AM)

When you're on the boards, this one and other boards, long enough, you learn to sniff out which are legitimate requests for information and advice, which are from people yanking our chains (not that that's always a bad thing [;)] ), and which are crap and/or stupidity.

Also, you recognize posts from people who write the same whining complaints again and again because they did something they were strongly advised not to do.

What I like about this site is that there ARE a lot of strong, intelligent personalities in here who do express their opinions in a no-bullshit way.  This, meaning BDSM-world, is a place where you need to have common sense, or develop some if you are lacking.  If you're the type who needs to have your hand held and gentle words coo'ed to you every time you screw up, you aren't going to last long.

It's a big, wide, diverse world out there with lots of personality types.  What is, is.  Deal with it.   

I like GQ's "take what you can and leave the rest".  And learn the difference! 




SimplyMichael -> RE: Dominant's Catch-22? (5/30/2009 10:47:24 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: windchymes

When you're on the boards, this one and other boards, long enough, you learn to sniff out which are legitimate requests for information and advice, which are from people yanking our chains (not that that's always a bad thing [;)] ), and which are crap and/or stupidity.


People telegraph a great deal of information by what they do and do not say.  I have posted some pretty raw stuff and have talked about some major fuckups of mine on these boards and for the most part been treated fairly reasonably.

Why?

I would like to think that it is because the honesty of my intent is clear and people respect that.  I don't know how many times I have taken a thread where people are laying into some poor bastard, pointed out that "hey, I have made that mistake and I know many of you have and the poor bastard is here asking for help, lay off" and seen the thread turn around and be constructive.

IF you come with clarity and honesty, the response always seems to be fairly constructive.  It is the "why can't I find my 6th bi slave" posts or the "why are online married cheating doms untrustworthy" posts that tend to get lambasted.  Problem is that many people don't see their own dysfunction and so when someone else posts the same deluded crap they don't understand why others may call them on it.




oceanwinds -> RE: Dominant's Catch-22? (5/30/2009 11:09:28 AM)

As a rule, I do find this site to be decent in regards to the posters. Yes sometimes, people draw their conclusions before they know the facts, and am sure I have too, and probably will again. I have found some very supporting people though here. If they offer me advice or give an opinion different then mine, it is welcomed. I love food for thought.

Yes, some things bother me that I see here. There are times I feel like putting my cape on to protect those who are attacked or put down. The bitiness bothers me and always will. I decided though to pay attention to my own biteness, and not worry about others.,
My only concer is i am becoming addicted to Cm, uggg.




sweetsub1957 -> RE: Dominant's Catch-22? (5/30/2009 11:15:31 AM)

It's one thing to be honest and try to be helpful, but some P/people on these forums can be so judgemental and unnecessarilly insulting.  Totally useless and counter-productive, which is not helpful at all.  i know i've had a nasty-ass attitude in the past and i've also been the recipient of that attitude before.  i've changed my ways, as i see how unproductive that attitude is and how it reflects badly on both Sir and i when i act like that.  Just my opinion.




colouredin -> RE: Dominant's Catch-22? (5/30/2009 11:27:19 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: sweetsub1957

It's one thing to be honest and try to be helpful, but some P/people on these forums can be so judgemental and unnecessarilly insulting. Totally useless and counter-productive, which is not helpful at all. i know i've had a nasty-ass attitude in the past and i've also been the recipient of that attitude before. i've changed my ways, as i see how unproductive that attitude is and how it reflects badly on both Sir and i when i act like that. Just my opinion.



I think that people can be snarky but I do not think that I have ever seen anyone being unnecessarily insulting. One thing I do adore about this site is you will always get a no nonsense honest response and disagreeing doesnt mean that you instantly row.




kiwisub12 -> RE: Dominant's Catch-22? (5/30/2009 11:33:51 AM)

Some of what i see as the dominants catch 22 is when people post with advice - good and bad - and the dominants reply comes across as defensive. If there is a problem, and a solution is proposed and that solution is ridiculed then, yes, i can see why the thread might go down the tubes as far as civility is concerned.

If your life is based in reality, then you surely know that you aren't perfect/superperson/uberdom, and therefore you can't know everything. There is a perfect example in this thread where a dominant was corrected in the use of a word - and he reacted very defensively,, instead of just saying thanks. The dramameter instantly went up 10 points with his reply, with the possibility of further escalation from others.

I was on another forum where i posted a statement - which generated two replies that could have been seen as veiled criticism. Instead of getting up in arms and reacting defensively or leaving the board forever, I thought about what was said, acnowledged the sense of the posts and thanked the posters. They were relieved that i didn't over-react to what was said, and i learned something i needed to know.   And the moral of this little story is  is that most people post from a position of concern or wanting to be helpful, not from a position of wanting to pull the poster down. It seems to be more in the domly mindset to get upset by advice that could be construded as criticism than in the subly mindset.  But then , we subbies know this about our big bad doms   -  they are sensitive souls. [:D]

I have had some fun at posters expense on this forum - and usually it was with posters being less than honest in their posts. Ya know, if you make a tale up, and reading your profile can disprove the tale, you aren't smart enough to be posting here. [:)]




NihilusZero -> RE: Dominant's Catch-22? (5/30/2009 11:48:22 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SylvereApLeanan

After all, the only good dominant is one who is utterly secure in his/her place, has every conceivable aspect of his/her life in perfect order, and never needs to receive input from anyone because s/he’s got everything under control.

Well....yeah. I mean, that's the standard to be holding yourself up to as a D-type. At least, it is in my mind...which admittedly may be swayed towards the thought of seeking a power exchange much more to the TPE pole of the spectrum. If I'm taking responsibility for nearly the entirety of the life of another person...I better be as close to perfect as I can get.

quote:

ORIGINAL: SylvereApLeanan

On the other hand, when a dominant does something and doesn’t ask permission, but merely posts thoughts, experiences, or opinions without apology, it’s often the case that s/he is equally ridiculed and belittled for succumbing to "Top’s Disease."  The dominant is presumed to be arrogant, living in a fantasy, or abusive.  A significant number of posters feel it is their rightful place to take this dastardly dom down a peg or three.  After all, the only good dominant is one who shows humility, asks for input from those with experience who may be able to provide insight s/he has not previously considered, and who demonstrates his/her humanity through vulnerability.

This, I think, is much more a supposed 'forum etiquette' issue which will vary depending on how sensible the point the D-type is trying to make is. In terms of attempting to make factual statements, people can be entirely incorrect about something even if that notion is one that works seemlessly and smoothly within their own relationship.

That, at least, is one thing that you will find mentioned very often on the boards: that every individual and relationship determines his/her/its own "way".
 
quote:

ORIGINAL: SylvereApLeanan

I have to wonder how, exactly, a dominant is supposed to live up to expectations such as those listed in the first paragraph without feeling pressured to be a super hero.

For some Doms, those are the expectations we willingly walk into. Depending on the level of power exchange a D-type wants, I'd say it's a degree of expectation that most (if not all) D-types should hold themselves to.




CelticPrince -> RE: Dominant's Catch-22? (5/30/2009 12:01:57 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: SylvereApLeanan

In the time I’ve been active on the CM forums, I’ve seen two distinct attitudes towards certain types of posts from dominants, either directly or indirectly via a sub’s post.  Usually, these posts involve an assignment or task for the sub and request responses/opinions/thoughts from a wider audience.  Often, the replies fall into two categories: either the dominant is "lazy" because s/he set the sub on a task and gave permission for him/her to seek input from others, thereby demonstrating s/he is unwilling or incapable of thinking for him/herself, or else the dominant is "weak" because s/he has asked for outside observations on the situation.  This is somehow viewed as the dominant needing “validation” or "bolstering of position."  The general attitude is that this is a piss-poor dominant and, therefore, deserving of insult and ridicule.  Certainly, s/he is not worthy of a submissive or capable of having a D/s relationship.  After all, the only good dominant is one who is utterly secure in his/her place, has every conceivable aspect of his/her life in perfect order, and never needs to receive input from anyone because s/he’s got everything under control.
 
On the other hand, when a dominant does something and doesn’t ask permission, but merely posts thoughts, experiences, or opinions without apology, it’s often the case that s/he is equally ridiculed and belittled for succumbing to "Top’s Disease."  The dominant is presumed to be arrogant, living in a fantasy, or abusive.  A significant number of posters feel it is their rightful place to take this dastardly dom down a peg or three.  After all, the only good dominant is one who shows humility, asks for input from those with experience who may be able to provide insight s/he has not previously considered, and who demonstrates his/her humanity through vulnerability.
 
Am I the only one who sees a paradox here?
 
I have to wonder how, exactly, a dominant is supposed to live up to expectations such as those listed in the first paragraph without feeling pressured to be a super hero.  Alternately, how can a dominant be expected to show vulnerability without needing to get some outside perspectives or a bit of validation every so often?  Is a dominant not human?  If you prick us, do we not bleed?  In the wee hours of the morning, I’m having difficulty wrapping my head around this "dominant’s dichotomy."  Maybe I'm overthinking it and should just go to bed.  But perhaps someone could please share some insight with me? 

quote:

In the time I’ve been active on the CM forums, I’ve seen two distinct attitudes towards certain types of posts from dominants, either directly or indirectly via a sub’s post. Usually, these posts involve an assignment or task for the sub and request responses/opinions/thoughts from a wider audience. Often, the replies fall into two categories: either the dominant is "lazy" because s/he set the sub on a task and gave permission for him/her to seek input from others, thereby demonstrating s/he is unwilling or incapable of thinking for him/herself, or else the dominant is "weak" because s/he has asked for outside observations on the situation. This is somehow viewed as the dominant needing “validation” or "bolstering of position." The general attitude is that this is a piss-poor dominant and, therefore, deserving of insult and ridicule. Certainly, s/he is not worthy of a submissive or capable of having a D/s relationship. After all, the only good dominant is one who is utterly secure in his/her place, has every conceivable aspect of his/her life in perfect order, and never needs to receive input from anyone because s/he’s got everything under control.

On the other hand, when a dominant does something and doesn’t ask permission, but merely posts thoughts, experiences, or opinions without apology, it’s often the case that s/he is equally ridiculed and belittled for succumbing to "Top’s Disease." The dominant is presumed to be arrogant, living in a fantasy, or abusive. A significant number of posters feel it is their rightful place to take this dastardly dom down a peg or three. After all, the only good dominant is one who shows humility, asks for input from those with experience who may be able to provide insight s/he has not previously considered, and who demonstrates his/her humanity through vulnerability.

Am I the only one who sees a paradox here?

I have to wonder how, exactly, a dominant is supposed to live up to expectations such as those listed in the first paragraph without feeling pressured to be a super hero. Alternately, how can a dominant be expected to show vulnerability without needing to get some outside perspectives or a bit of validation every so often? Is a dominant not human? If you prick us, do we not bleed? In the wee hours of the morning, I’m having difficulty wrapping my head around this "dominant’s dichotomy." Maybe I'm overthinking it and should just go to bed. But perhaps someone could please share some insight with me?

_____________________________

Sylverë


Sylvere

And then there is a 3rd type as represented by yours truely. I post to impress no one and my skin is thick with some critical replies. Most I will ignore if it is just nonsense but if it gets personal I will bite back.

My posts tend toward thought provoking subjects, not necesarilly a quest for new knowledge.

CP




Lockit -> RE: Dominant's Catch-22? (5/30/2009 12:44:32 PM)

For the most part, I don't see people trying to one up the next guy.  Maybe I miss some post or threads, but I feel from what I have seen, it isn't trying to impress and most seem to see things the way they see them and are not seeking validation.  Now there are some who are seeking these things and it is pretty clear that they are. 

I think for me... when I might get snarky or may seem like I am acting better than someone else, I have seen something I find very distasteful.  Coming from where I come from in life, I will see things that other's may not or will have a reaction based on something I have been through that someone else may not or has been through but in a different way or with a different take. Some will see it just as I do. It all depends.

When I go off it is typically a situation where I see someone is being hurt and it isn't a projection in my mind and it comes from the words of the person and their focus.  Can I always be correct?  No.  Can I know them fully in one posting? No.  But some can give a good idea of what they are about in a serious type post.

If one comes seeking answers and learning... unless I think it is a sexual trollfest, I will answer it and being who I am, I want people to learn.  But if one comes in for us to confirm their stand on something I see more to in the situation... and the chance of harm being done, you can bet I am going to respond to that.  If they ask and get defensive because someone gives them an answer that they didn't want to focus on and they wish for us to overlook blatant attitude or whatever and they are side stepping something they could be doing wrong and only highlight someone else as they see them as wrong or only want part of the picture looked at... no... they are getting what I think and see, like it or not.




CallaFirestormBW -> RE: Dominant's Catch-22? (5/30/2009 2:05:18 PM)

I think that sometimes the posts from people that seem to be "lazy" or "bullying" posts may simply be an issue of not being very good at getting their idea, question, or thought out. Frankly, most of the prolific posters on these boards (myself included) are people who are generally -good- with words. I've realized, over years of providing counsel, that most of the population just isn't that versatile in their language skills. They don't know what they -really- want to know... or don't know that what they're -really- asking doesn't come across in the way they asked the question. On top of that, many people have to use the immediate examples from their daily life to -try- to get people to understand where they're having issues, and sometimes they do that by presenting something they have 'in hand', without stopping to think that spreading stuff like that across the boards might be considered bad form.

When I was training to earn my crop, I had people around me who could answer my questions... and I had a -lot- of them. I came up through the ranks, sort of like a Non-Commissioned Officer in the military, so I had a lot of experience from being "below stairs", and I had some experience with managing people at work and directing students at seminary, so I had some idea of how to lead, but when it came to delving into managing servants and directing lives, I admit that I was darned nervous... and even more so when it came to exploring some of the more technical aspects of my fetish-play (which, for me at least, is something completely removed from the authority-transfer relationships that I participate in), because I understood that cutting people and poking needles through them and setting them on fire were skill-driven, potentially dangerous activities. Even something as basic as a good flogging, which I enjoy giving as much as the next person, was, in the beginning, a huge challenge.

Now, imagine, if you will, an individual who has started to explore the many facets of alternative life including authority transfer and maybe some fetish activities. Xhe may not have done much reading-- may not even know that there are books -out- there to help with getting started (funny how we, as a culture, don't really think about books anymore, isn't it?). Xhe may not know that xhe can look for local groups -- or perhaps xhe's in a situation where xhe doesn't -want- to go looking for other people to do this with until xhe has a better idea of what it -is- that xhe's doing. Now, suppose, too, that xhe's in a relationship, and that hir significant-other is interested in exploring this, too. They divvy themselves up according to their interests, but there is nobody to talk to to figure out how to handle some of the basic things that go on. Heck, if you compare it to any other similar aspect -- even to something like raising pets, there is -almost always- someone to talk to to find out what to do, what you -need-, and how to start... but in the world of alternative living and fetish exploration, many people just aren't comfortable trying to find someone to ask face-to-face... so they come to sites like this. Sure, they may not phrase it all pretty, and it may seem like a "dumb" question or like the person just hasn't bothered to do the research.... but maybe, just maybe, this is the first step in the research for that person. I don't grasp -why- some people find it not only -necessary-, but -enjoyable- to take those situations and use them to cut someone else down, or treat the person like a pariah or misfit. How hard would it be to just accept the question at face-value, respond to the best of our ability with information that -we- find -useful- in similar situations, and let the individual prove hir mettle over time. Being rude, nasty, demeaning, and crass doesn't make someone seem "tough" or "domly" or "strong". People don't improve their standing by attempting to show someone else up as an "idiot"... and just because Joe Schmo doesn't do "it" the same way that I do, or participates in some activity that I don't enjoy (or actively despise) doesn't make Joe Schmo worthy of my disdain, dismissal, or degradation... nor does it necessarily make him "weak" or a poor Keeper, or even lazy.

I think it is worth my while to read some of the explorations that people post on here. Even where it seems that straight common sense would solve the problem, what seems like "common sense" to me may not be so readily apparent to someone else, and sometimes, I even -learn- something.

Dame Calla




leadership527 -> RE: Dominant's Catch-22? (5/30/2009 3:45:58 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SylvereApLeanan
In the time I’ve been active on the CM forums, I’ve seen two distinct attitudes towards certain types of posts from dominants, either directly or indirectly via a sub’s post.  Usually, these posts involve an assignment or task for the sub and request responses/opinions/thoughts from a wider audience.  Often, the replies fall into two categories: either the dominant is "lazy" because s/he set the sub on a task and gave permission for him/her to seek input from others, thereby demonstrating s/he is unwilling or incapable of thinking for him/herself, or else the dominant is "weak" because s/he has asked for outside observations on the situation.  This is somehow viewed as the dominant needing “validation” or "bolstering of position."  The general attitude is that this is a piss-poor dominant and, therefore, deserving of insult and ridicule.  Certainly, s/he is not worthy of a submissive or capable of having a D/s relationship.  After all, the only good dominant is one who is utterly secure in his/her place, has every conceivable aspect of his/her life in perfect order, and never needs to receive input from anyone because s/he’s got everything under control.

In general, it is my observation that being a dominant on these boards kind of predisposed the submissives to assume the worst. I personally find that rather convenient but I can see how others might see it differently.

quote:

ORIGINAL: SylvereApLeanan
On the other hand, when a dominant does something and doesn’t ask permission, but merely posts thoughts, experiences, or opinions without apology, it’s often the case that s/he is equally ridiculed and belittled for succumbing to "Top’s Disease." The dominant is presumed to be arrogant, living in a fantasy, or abusive. A significant number of posters feel it is their rightful place to take this dastardly dom down a peg or three. After all, the only good dominant is one who shows humility, asks for input from those with experience who may be able to provide insight s/he has not previously considered, and who demonstrates his/her humanity through vulnerability.

*shrugs* Some people live for "taking people down" on internet discussion boards. I think you're being overly specific here. The bind that a dominant is in on these boards is...well... being dominant.

quote:

ORIGINAL: SylvereApLeanan
I have to wonder how, exactly, a dominant is supposed to live up to expectations such as those listed in the first paragraph without feeling pressured to be a super hero.  Alternately, how can a dominant be expected to show vulnerability without needing to get some outside perspectives or a bit of validation every so often?  Is a dominant not human?  If you prick us, do we not bleed?  In the wee hours of the morning, I’m having difficulty wrapping my head around this "dominant’s dichotomy."  Maybe I'm overthinking it and should just go to bed.  But perhaps someone could please share some insight with me? 

Conveniently I don't think dominants are supposed to live up to the random expectations of a group of people that deep down hate dominants. Or, at least, that's not where I personally go to get my own self-validation. If I post a question here, I just assume that there'll be 80% of people flaming me about some aspect or another of something I've said and 20% who don't and who's input is at least partially useful. That's not too bad really. I just skip over the noise.




WyldHrt -> RE: Dominant's Catch-22? (5/30/2009 3:53:36 PM)

quote:

This forum is a lot more cliquey then the rest of them I have been  or I currently post in.   I have tried to follow them and get to know the core group of posters before I posted.  Even with the research as such I tried to ask a question that I as a Dominate had not come across before.  After posting  my question and the way it was received made me think twice about posting on here  again. However; that was just my experiance on here.

With due respect MU, this is your first post in 3 years and lots of the membership has changed in that time. I checked your posting history and found that your question generated a rather informative 7 page thread, with opinions from many sides. I didn't see you get jumped on there, just some people who didn't believe the phenomenon was possible, but maybe I missed something.




colouredin -> RE: Dominant's Catch-22? (5/30/2009 3:59:50 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: WyldHrt

but maybe I missed something.



Nope I just read that thread too, seemed to be people answering the question to me




SylvereApLeanan -> RE: Dominant's Catch-22? (5/30/2009 4:33:19 PM)

~FR~
 
I just wanted to thank everyone who has posted so far.  I've decided that, while I may be overthinking, this is not necessarily a bad thing.  I'm an INTJ -- thinking is Me and I enjoy contemplating the many sides of an issue.  I'm still processing some of the input and I'll respond to some of the posts that have given me the most to consider in the near future.
 
Thanks again for your time and your responses.




MasterUnknown -> RE: Dominant's Catch-22? (5/30/2009 6:56:33 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: WyldHrt


With due respect MU, this is your first post in 3 years and lots of the membership has changed in that time. I checked your posting history and found that your question generated a rather informative 7 page thread, with opinions from many sides. I didn't see you get jumped on there, just some people who didn't believe the phenomenon was possible, but maybe I missed something.



No I agree it has been a while since I posted and on that post yes I did get the information I was looking for and it was a very good thread.  However; It does not show the ones I just got tired of and deleted after some of the questions or input I tried to give. 




RedMagic1 -> RE: Dominant's Catch-22? (5/30/2009 7:10:20 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterUnknown
It does not show the ones I just got tired of and deleted after some of the questions or input I tried to give. 

Do you mean you started threads and then deleted them, or you made comments and then removed them, or both?




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